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mutilating bodies (Read 13358 times)
freediver
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mutilating bodies
Aug 4th, 2014 at 2:42pm
 
How do Islam's rules on mutilating bodies rule out suicide bombing, without preventing Muslims from engaging in other forms of war?

freediver wrote on Jul 30th, 2014 at 7:02pm:
polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 30th, 2014 at 2:05pm:
freediver wrote on Jul 30th, 2014 at 8:28am:
What is the rule on mutilating bodies?


Its forbidden.

Do you still need a "simple explanation" of the mutilating nature of suicide attacks?


Yes please. Either that or continue tapdancing for us.

Does this mean Islam outlaws the use of explosives? Guns? Swords? How do you kill someone without mutilating their body?
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Brian Ross
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Re: mutilating bodies
Reply #1 - Aug 4th, 2014 at 6:07pm
 
Western, Judeo-Christian civilisation (and I use the term loosely) has moral rules against the mutilation of bodies as well, Freediver.  Indeed Fourth Geneva Convention makes it clear that:
Quote:
ARTICLE 3 [ Link ]

In the case of armed conflict not of an international character occurring in the territory of one of the High Contracting Parties, each Party to the conflict shall be bound to apply, as a minimum, the following provisions:

(1) Persons taking no active part in the hostilities, including members of armed forces who have laid down their arms and those placed ' hors de combat ' by sickness, wounds, detention, or any other cause, shall in all circumstances be treated humanely, without any adverse distinction founded on race, colour, religion or faith, sex, birth or wealth, or any other similar criteria.
To this end, the following acts are and shall remain prohibited at any time and in any place whatsoever with respect to the above-mentioned persons:

(a) violence to life and person, in particular murder of all kinds, mutilation, cruel treatment and torture;

(b) taking of hostages;

(c) outrages upon personal dignity, in particular humiliating and degrading treatment;

(d) the passing of sentences and the carrying out of executions without previous judgment pronounced by a regularly constituted court, affording all the judicial guarantees which are recognized as indispensable by civilized peoples.

(2) The wounded and sick shall be collected and cared for.

[Source]

Further, the International Red Cross in it's study on Customary international humanitarian law points out:

Quote:
Rule 113. Treatment of the Dead

Rule 113. Each party to the conflict must take all possible measures to prevent the dead from being despoiled. Mutilation of dead bodies is prohibited.

Summary

State practice establishes this rule as a norm of customary international law applicable in both international and non-international armed conflicts.
International armed conflicts
The obligation to take all possible measures to prevent the dead from being despoiled (or pillaged) was first codified in the 1907 Hague Convention (X).[1]  It is now also codified in the Geneva Conventions.[2]  It is also contained in Additional Protocol I,[3]  albeit in more general terms of “respecting” the dead, which includes the notion of preventing the remains from being despoiled.[4]

The obligation to take all possible measures to prevent the dead from being despoiled or the prohibition of the despoliation of the dead is set forth in numerous military manuals.[5]  The despoliation of dead bodies is an offence under the legislation of many States.[6]  In the Pohl case in 1947, the US Military Tribunal at Nuremberg stated that robbing the dead “is and always has been a crime”.[7]  In addition, the prohibition of despoliation of dead bodies is an application of the general prohibition of pillage (see Rule 52).

The prohibition of mutilating dead bodies in international armed conflicts is covered by the war crime of “committing outrages upon personal dignity” under the Statute of the International Criminal Court, which according to the Elements of Crimes also applies to dead persons (see commentary to Rule 90).[8]

Many military manuals prohibit the mutilation or other maltreatment of the dead.[9]  Mutilation of the dead is an offence under the legislation of many States.[10]  In several trials after the Second World War, the accused were convicted on charges of mutilation of dead bodies and cannibalism.[11]  The prohibition on mutilating the dead is further supported by official statements and other practice.[12]

[Source

Yet, many western military forces have been known to take body parts as trophies and souvenirs, while of course there are the mutilating effects of modern weapons which are often deliberately designed into them, to make them more effective.

Again, once more we see FD turning a blind eye to the practices of his own favour "civilisation" in order to attack another...   Roll Eyes

The reality is, everybody decries it but everybody does it.  It's nasty, it's horrible but the practice continues.   Does that excuse it?  No, it explains it, for those who have difficulties between understanding what an explanation is compared to an apology.   Roll Eyes
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Someone said we could not judge a person's Aboriginality on their skin colour.  Why isn't that applied in the matter of Pascoe?  Tsk, tsk, tsk...   Roll Eyes Roll Eyes
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freediver
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Re: mutilating bodies
Reply #2 - Aug 4th, 2014 at 6:18pm
 
This has many parallels with Brian's previous efforts at spineless apologetics. Gandalf hasn't even answered the question yet and already Brian is trying to divert our eyes from the answer.

freediver wrote on Sep 15th, 2013 at 6:22pm:
Brian Ross wrote on Sep 15th, 2013 at 5:39pm:
Quote:
Is this the Islam you are so keen to defend with your "fair deal" nonsense, what about those who no longer believe in that bullshit barfed up by a 7th century desert bandit do they deserve a fair deal like article 18 of the Universal declaration of human rights?
Quote:
7 nations where atheism is punishable by death.
All 7 establish Islam as the state religion.
Pakistan,Saudi Arabia,Iran,Afghanistan,Sudan,Mauritania and the Maldives
www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2012/12/10/the-seven-countries-where-...



I make no excuses for those nations and their laws, BV.  I merely recognise that it is their right to create and unfortunately impose those punishments.   It is terrible but I also recognise I have no right or ability to criticise them.  I am neither a member of their religion or a citizen of any of those nations.



Brian Ross wrote on Aug 2nd, 2014 at 3:11pm:
freediver wrote on Aug 2nd, 2014 at 9:33am:
Apparently pointing out that Brian likes to hijack threads with his spineless apologetics is undermining Brian's right to point out unrelated issues. Brian is being persecuted, just like the Ahmadis. I'm sure the Ahmadis appreciate Brian's efforts to distract us from their plight with his tales of nasty things happening to white people in Europe a few centuries ago. They'd be like "thanks Brian, the last thing we wanted was for our plight to reflect badly on the Muslims who are trying to kill us, you are the real martyr".


FD, so, drawing a parallel between how some modern day Muslims treat a great Muslim thinker and how some 15th century Christians treated 15th century Christian thinkers is distracting you from your attack on all modern day Muslims?  Really?

If you weren't so intent on attempting to force us all to conform to your viewpoint, you'd have realised my comment was a condemnation on ALL suppression of scientific thought and knowledge, not just that of 15th century Christians', by drawing a parallel.  But, of course, you'd much rather attack the man, than think about the message that he delivers.  It's far simpler, isn't it?   Roll Eyes Roll Eyes

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Brian Ross
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Re: mutilating bodies
Reply #3 - Aug 4th, 2014 at 6:37pm
 
freediver wrote on Aug 4th, 2014 at 6:18pm:
This has many parallels with Brian's previous efforts at spineless apologetics. Gandalf hasn't even answered the question yet and already Brian is trying to divert our eyes from the answer.


Translation:  "I hate it when Brian intervenes and points out just how narrow-minded and yes, bigoted my views are on Muslims.  Why won't he conform?  Why won't he hate Muslims like I do?"  Roll Eyes

Next you'll be complaining there aren't any Muslim comedians.  Oh, wait, one of your followers has...   Roll Eyes
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freediver
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Re: mutilating bodies
Reply #4 - Aug 4th, 2014 at 7:21pm
 
You discuss just about everything but my views on Islam.
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Brian Ross
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Re: mutilating bodies
Reply #5 - Aug 4th, 2014 at 8:47pm
 
freediver wrote on Aug 4th, 2014 at 7:21pm:
You discuss just about everything but my views on Islam.


I draw the attention of the readers to a bigger picture than the myopic view you prefer, FD.

What are your views on Muslims, FD?  I know what they are about Islam but it's your attitude towards Muslims I'm interested in because invariably your criticism isn't about religious belief but rather it's about Muslim behaviour.  Why?
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Re: mutilating bodies
Reply #6 - Aug 4th, 2014 at 8:55pm
 
freediver wrote on Aug 4th, 2014 at 6:18pm:
This has many parallels with Brian's previous efforts at spineless apologetics.


Grin Grin Grin
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Re: mutilating bodies
Reply #7 - Aug 4th, 2014 at 9:54pm
 
Yes, Brian, you should know by now that raising the Geneva Convention is no more than the worst form of spineless apologism.

Why can’t you stick to FD’s views on Islam?

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polite_gandalf
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Re: mutilating bodies
Reply #8 - Aug 4th, 2014 at 10:02pm
 
As I alluded to before, the mutilating effects of suicide bombings should be pretty obvious.

I do not know whether this author takes his argument to the logical conclusion and advocates against (for example) firing a volley of artillery into a concentration of enemy infantry. Or whether he thinks this islamic law only applies to mutilating civilians (which is what he is talking about). He doesn't make this clear.

But of course with all these sorts of matters that FD brings up, its never a simple case of finding a debating point that can be discussed rationally and in a civilized manner. It straight away has to be about some dishonest muslim, plotting some conspiracy to pull the wool over unsuspecting non-muslims eyes. Note how this particular exchange started by FD asking if the author was muslim - a relevant question, he exlplained, because it " triggers my bullshit detector". Nothing at all about the actual article in question - and in fact he started his attack on the article by labelling it as pro suicide bombing.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:
Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Bobby.
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Re: mutilating bodies
Reply #9 - Aug 4th, 2014 at 11:13pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 4th, 2014 at 10:02pm:
As I alluded to before, the mutilating effects of suicide bombings should be pretty obvious.

I do not know whether this author takes his argument to the logical conclusion and advocates against (for example) firing a volley of artillery into a concentration of enemy infantry. Or whether he thinks this islamic law only applies to mutilating civilians (which is what he is talking about). He doesn't make this clear.

But of course with all these sorts of matters that FD brings up, its never a simple case of finding a debating point that can be discussed rationally and in a civilized manner. It straight away has to be about some dishonest muslim, plotting some conspiracy to pull the wool over unsuspecting non-muslims eyes. Note how this particular exchange started by FD asking if the author was muslim - a relevant question, he exlplained, because it " triggers my bullshit detector". Nothing at all about the actual article in question - and in fact he started his attack on the article by labelling it as pro suicide bombing.

 



Do want to see how barbaric Muslims are?

See if you can even watch this video - I couldn't - I nearly vomited after 10 seconds & had to switch it off.
I haven't seen all of it.
It is horrific.

CAUTION - THIS VIDEO IS ABSOLUTELY SHOCKING. -
and therefore is not allowed
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« Last Edit: Aug 4th, 2014 at 11:25pm by polite_gandalf »  
 
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polite_gandalf
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Re: mutilating bodies
Reply #10 - Aug 4th, 2014 at 11:22pm
 
newsflash Bobby - mankind, in general, is barbaric. Its not an islamic, or even a religious thing - as FD himself would have told you....

7 years ago.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:
Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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polite_gandalf
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Re: mutilating bodies
Reply #11 - Aug 4th, 2014 at 11:24pm
 
Bobby. wrote on Aug 4th, 2014 at 11:13pm:
I haven't seen all of it.
It is horrific.


So don't post it. Simple.

Deleted.
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Bobby.
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Re: mutilating bodies
Reply #12 - Aug 4th, 2014 at 11:27pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 4th, 2014 at 11:24pm:
Bobby. wrote on Aug 4th, 2014 at 11:13pm:
I haven't seen all of it.
It is horrific.


So don't post it. Simple.

Deleted.


Fair enough to delete it - it was the worse thing I've seen in my life.

And I didn't watch it all

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polite_gandalf
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Re: mutilating bodies
Reply #13 - Aug 4th, 2014 at 11:33pm
 
Notice to everyone - please read the new sticky in the Important Topics section regarding the new rule on posting graphic media.
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Bobby.
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Re: mutilating bodies
Reply #14 - Aug 4th, 2014 at 11:37pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 4th, 2014 at 11:33pm:
Notice to everyone - please read the new sticky in the Important Topics section regarding the new rule on posting graphic media.



It certainly doesn't make it on TV.

4 Corners tonight had some videos from ISIS but they were all toned down & blurred out or stopped at the vital moment.

What's really going on is so bad that civilized people can't even watch it.

It's only on Youtube & social media from Camera phones..

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