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Fairness towards a religion? (Read 5228 times)
freediver
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Re: Fairness towards a religion?
Reply #30 - Sep 15th, 2013 at 4:01pm
 
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That is not the issue.


Gandalf, not every thread is about you, OK? But thanks for proving Brian wrong.

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The issue is what muslims consider the 'take-home' message about Muhammad.


That he is an eternal example for all mankind?

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Your conclusion is that because (in your view) Muhammad was a warmongering misogynistic rapist pedophile, that all muslims therefore condone warmongering, misogyny, rape and pedophile - and even more than that, consider those things virtues.


You mean like your little backflip in the child brides thread?

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Your problem is that you assume muslims accept that portrayal of Muhammad. Its what we call a logical fallacy.


Portrayal? There is only so much of the story of Muhammed you can discard before you discard Islam. How's that working out for you?
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polite_gandalf
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Re: Fairness towards a religion?
Reply #31 - Sep 15th, 2013 at 4:21pm
 
freediver wrote on Sep 15th, 2013 at 4:01pm:
Portrayal? There is only so much of the story of Muhammed you can discard before you discard Islam. How's that working out for you?


I don't discard any of the known facts about Muhammad. I just don't draw the same conclusions that you do about them.
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Re: Fairness towards a religion?
Reply #32 - Sep 15th, 2013 at 4:30pm
 
You attempted to discard the fact that he married a 6 year old girl (at the same time as attempting to defend it).
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Re: Fairness towards a religion?
Reply #33 - Sep 15th, 2013 at 5:06pm
 
Firstly, I never discarded it - I merely keep an open mind to the possibility that it is wrong.

Secondly, are all hadeeth's "known facts"? No.

There has been evidence presented by scholars that the hadith that states her age as 6 and 9. Other hadeeth have been discredited by similar means. It is not blasphemy to question the historical accuracy of a given hadith - in fact muslims have been doing just that for centuries.

Ultimately though, does it matter? Even if it is true, I find no reason to suspect that Aisha didn't reach puberty at age 9 - which is not unheard of, and possibly more common then than it is today. And I don't have much time for the argument that age 9 must equal to "child" no matter what. That seems to me a pretty narrow-minded way of looking at things. Girls matured much earlier in those times, and there's no reason to think of a pubescent girl in those times as anything other than a bona fide adult that was ready for marriage.
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Brian Ross
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Re: Fairness towards a religion?
Reply #34 - Sep 15th, 2013 at 5:39pm
 
Baronvonrort wrote on Sep 15th, 2013 at 3:44pm:
Brian Ross wrote on Sep 14th, 2013 at 11:46pm:
I bend over in no direction, FD.  What I want to see is a fair deal for Muslims and their religion


You want a special deal for Islam where it cannot be criticised, you are a hypocrite who will bag all religions except Islam.


No, as usual your bigotry and prejudice colours your attitudes, BV.

I am not interested in preventing fair criticism of Islam and Muslims.  Note the key word which is missing from your lexicon, BV as it is from so many here - "fair".   If something is shown to be wrong then you should stop harping on it but you don't, you just keep repeating lies and believing the absolute worse about Muslims, automatically.  That is bigotry, BV.  Something you should be ashamed of but you aren't for some strange reason.  Perhaps you need to reorientate your moral compass - assuming you have one.   Roll Eyes

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Is this the Islam you are so keen to defend with your "fair deal" nonsense, what about those who no longer believe in that bullshit barfed up by a 7th century desert bandit do they deserve a fair deal like article 18 of the Universal declaration of human rights?
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7 nations where atheism is punishable by death.
All 7 establish Islam as the state religion.
Pakistan,Saudi Arabia,Iran,Afghanistan,Sudan,Mauritania and the Maldives
www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2012/12/10/the-seven-countries-where-...



I make no excuses for those nations and their laws, BV.  I merely recognise that it is their right to create and unfortunately impose those punishments.   It is terrible but I also recognise I have no right or ability to criticise them.  I am neither a member of their religion or a citizen of any of those nations.

So, what are you doing about it except trying tar all Muslims with the same brush, even if they aren't citizens of those countries nor may well not even agree with those laws.  For you, mere guilt by association is OK.   Roll Eyes

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Since you are so keen to defend Islam what is a fair deal for a religion that kills-imprisons people for Apostasy,blasphemy,adultery and homsexuality in 2013, do you expect people to remain silent about a religion that kills people for thought crimes?


Where have I suggested that?  Please don't erect strawman arguments, BV.  Don't try and put words into my mouth that I've never uttered or typed.

Fairness is about allowing the benefit of the doubt.  Accepting that not all horror stories about Islam and Muslims are automatically true or apply to everybody.

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Brian Ross
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Re: Fairness towards a religion?
Reply #35 - Sep 15th, 2013 at 5:46pm
 
freediver wrote on Sep 15th, 2013 at 3:51pm:
But Baron, you are missing the point. King Leer killed someone 13 generations ago. Therefor we are not allowed to criticise Islam, or we are bigots.


I am unsure who "King Leer" is or what his relationship to Islam is, FD.  Another red herring or is this the code you use to communicate with your fellow bigots with?   Roll Eyes

You are bigots if you fit this definition:

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bigot
noun

a person who has very strong, unreasonable beliefs or opinions about race, religion or politics and who will not listen to or accept the opinions of anyone who disagrees

[Source]

Do you, FD?

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Some or all Muslims, FD?  See what I mean about stereotyping?


Show me a Muslim who does not think Muhammed is an eternal example to all mankind.


Show me a Muslim who doesn't continually question themselves and their beliefs, FD.  As has been indicated many times, Muslims do not worship Mohammed.  You seem unable to understand this for some reason or could it be that you simply refuse to accept any alternative viewpoint?   Roll Eyes

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Then I will take you seriously.


You should always take me seriously, FD.  I am the one who is standing up you and rubbing your nose in your irrational hatred of all things Islam and all Muslims.    Roll Eyes
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Re: Fairness towards a religion?
Reply #36 - Sep 15th, 2013 at 6:26pm
 
Quote:
Ultimately though, does it matter?


If it means that even progressive Muslims such as yourself attempt to justify child brides, then yes it does.

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I am not interested in preventing fair criticism of Islam and Muslims.


As soon as you decide it is unfair, you attempt to dictate to everyone what they can and cannot debate with your ad hominems, deflections and various spineless apologetics. The only thing you won;t do is discuss the topic at hand.

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Note the key word which is missing from your lexicon, BV as it is from so many here - "fair".


You still haven't actually explained how you apply this concept to an ideology, other to insert your head into your rectum and insist that a religion is not an ideology.

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If something is shown to be wrong then you should stop harping on it but you don't, you just keep repeating lies and believing the absolute worse about Muslims, automatically.  That is bigotry, BV.


You constantly make up stories about me to avoid addressing the issue. Apparently creating elaborate fantasies to explain why I say the things I say is much easier than actually addressing what I say. Your errors have been pointed out to you countless times, but you just keep regurgitating it. I wouldn;t call it bigotry though. It is more about spineless, mindless apologetics.

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I am unsure who "King Leer" is or what his relationship to Islam is, FD.  Another red herring or is this the code you use to communicate with your fellow bigots with?


Grin Grin Grin

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Show me a Muslim who doesn't continually question themselves and their beliefs, FD.


You first Brian. Show me a Muslim who does not think Muhammed is an eternal example to all mankind.

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As has been indicated many times, Muslims do not worship Mohammed.


Red herring.
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Baronvonrort
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Re: Fairness towards a religion?
Reply #37 - Sep 15th, 2013 at 8:23pm
 
Brian Ross wrote on Sep 15th, 2013 at 5:39pm:
Baronvonrort wrote on Sep 15th, 2013 at 3:44pm:
Brian Ross wrote on Sep 14th, 2013 at 11:46pm:
I bend over in no direction, FD.  What I want to see is a fair deal for Muslims and their religion


You want a special deal for Islam where it cannot be criticised, you are a hypocrite who will bag all religions except Islam.


No, as usual your bigotry and prejudice colours your attitudes, BV.
Your Islam tinted glasses blind you to the truth,your usual slurs against those who dont share your ignorance

I am not interested in preventing fair criticism of Islam and Muslims.  Note the key word which is missing from your lexicon, BV as it is from so many here - "fair".   If something is shown to be wrong then you should stop harping on it but you don't, you just keep repeating lies and believing the absolute worse about Muslims, automatically.  That is bigotry, BV.  Something you should be ashamed of but you aren't for some strange reason.  Perhaps you need to reorientate your moral compass - assuming you have one.   Roll Eyes
Please cite the lies you claim i am repeating, i posted the journalist stands by his story when your sock puppet HB claimed it had been debunked.
I dont put respect for delusional ancient beliefs before respect for humanity, perhaps you should check your moral compass with what you defend.


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Is this the Islam you are so keen to defend with your "fair deal" nonsense, what about those who no longer believe in that bullshit barfed up by a 7th century desert bandit do they deserve a fair deal like article 18 of the Universal declaration of human rights?
Quote:
7 nations where atheism is punishable by death.
All 7 establish Islam as the state religion.
Pakistan,Saudi Arabia,Iran,Afghanistan,Sudan,Mauritania and the Maldives
www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2012/12/10/the-seven-countries-where-...



I make no excuses for those nations and their laws, BV.  I merely recognise that it is their right to create and unfortunately impose those punishments.   It is terrible but I also recognise I have no right or ability to criticise them.  I am neither a member of their religion or a citizen of any of those nations.
Those laws are based on Islamic sharia law, of course being critical of those laws requires you to be critical of Islamic ideology which is where they originate, Islamic apologists like you never criticise Islam yet are happy to call critics bigots and Islamophobes. Cool Smiley

So, what are you doing about it except trying tar all Muslims with the same brush, even if they aren't citizens of those countries nor may well not even agree with those laws.  For you, mere guilt by association is OK.   Roll Eyes
I dont tar all muslims with the same brush bit of a strawman there brian.
How do they get rid of those barbaric laws without getting accused of blasphemy Brian, did Salman Taseer get shot by his own bodyguard for opposing the blasphemy laws in Pakistan?


Quote:
Since you are so keen to defend Islam what is a fair deal for a religion that kills-imprisons people for Apostasy,blasphemy,adultery and homsexuality in 2013, do you expect people to remain silent about a religion that kills people for thought crimes?


Where have I suggested that?  Please don't erect strawman arguments, BV.  Don't try and put words into my mouth that I've never uttered or typed.
So what is fairness towards a religion that you mentioned, it it ignoring the various outdated death penalties that violate human rights as outlined in the UDHR, please enlighten us by what you meant by fairness towards a religion.

Fairness is about allowing the benefit of the doubt.  Accepting that not all horror stories about Islam and Muslims are automatically true or apply to everybody.
Are you prepared to give the church the benefit of the doubt with pedophilia claims or does your double standards only give muslims the benefit of the doubt?



Allah mentions hypocrites in the Quran, who are the hypocrites Brian?
www.quran.com/9/73
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Leftists and the Ayatollahs have a lot in common when it comes to criticism of Islam, they don't tolerate it.
 
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True Colours
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Re: Fairness towards a religion?
Reply #38 - Sep 15th, 2013 at 8:40pm
 
C'mon Freediver, if you are fair, then where is the Judaism section?
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Re: Fairness towards a religion?
Reply #39 - Sep 15th, 2013 at 8:54pm
 
Brian Ross wrote on Sep 15th, 2013 at 5:39pm:
  I make no excuses for those nations and their laws, BV.  I merely recognise that it is their right to create and unfortunately impose those punishments.   It is terrible but I also recognise I have no right or ability to criticise them.  I am neither a member of their religion or a citizen of any of those nations.



Well apart from the fact that you are continually making excuses, that statement is good to know and very informative.

Tells me a lot about where you are coming from. 

Oh. and PS Brian you don't stop at not condemning nations you will also excuse on cultural grounds as well.  Tis all good in your eyes so long as it is culture. 

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Re: Fairness towards a religion?
Reply #40 - Sep 15th, 2013 at 9:04pm
 
True Colours wrote on Sep 15th, 2013 at 8:40pm:
C'mon Freediver, if you are fair, then where is the Judaism section?


I am discussing the matter with the Elders.
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Re: Fairness towards a religion?
Reply #41 - Sep 15th, 2013 at 9:46pm
 
freediver wrote on Sep 15th, 2013 at 6:26pm:
Quote:
Ultimately though, does it matter?


If it means that even progressive Muslims such as yourself attempt to justify child brides, then yes it does.

Quote:
I am not interested in preventing fair criticism of Islam and Muslims.


As soon as you decide it is unfair, you attempt to dictate to everyone what they can and cannot debate with your ad hominems, deflections and various spineless apologetics. The only thing you won;t do is discuss the topic at hand.


Unlike you, I recognise both my limitations and my ignorance.  However, I do recognise that people and institutions deserve respect and a fair chance, FD.  When you are told you're wrong by those whom are more knowledgeable, you refuse to accept alternative viewpoints and explanations and continue on with your bigotry and Islamophobia.

If you don't like your arguments being correctly identified as such, prove to us you're not a bigot or an Islamophobe - widen your focus.  You either can't or won't from what I've observed.  That you take me to task for saying that you should give people are fair shake merely shows how prejudiced you are.   Your characterisation of anybody who says, "fair go!" as a "limp-wristed apologist" merely shows how deep your hatred of all things Islam and Muslim goes.   Roll Eyes

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Quote:
Note the key word which is missing from your lexicon, BV as it is from so many here - "fair".


You still haven't actually explained how you apply this concept to an ideology, other to insert your head into your rectum and insist that a religion is not an ideology.


I must be really annoying you with my obstinate defence of giving people and institutions a fair go, FD 'cause you're attacking me personally.   Grin

You do realise that resorting to ad hominem indicates you've lost the debate?

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If something is shown to be wrong then you should stop harping on it but you don't, you just keep repeating lies and believing the absolute worse about Muslims, automatically.  That is bigotry, BV.


You constantly make up stories about me to avoid addressing the issue.


You're BV?  How interesting, FD. 

I don't "make up stories", I point out where your views lead.  If you don't like it, change your views, FD.  Stop writing stuff that makes me think you're a bigot and an Islamophobe.

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Apparently creating elaborate fantasies to explain why I say the things I say is much easier than actually addressing what I say.


I am addressing it, FD.  It appears you don't like the result of what you're typing.   Roll Eyes

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Your errors have been pointed out to you countless times, but you just keep regurgitating it. I wouldn;t call it bigotry though. It is more about spineless, mindless apologetics.


Yeah, sure, FD, sure, I suppose you lying to yourself helps you sleep at night.  Roll Eyes

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I am unsure who "King Leer" is or what his relationship to Islam is, FD.  Another red herring or is this the code you use to communicate with your fellow bigots with?


Grin Grin Grin

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[quote]Show me a Muslim who doesn't continually question themselves and their beliefs, FD.


You first Brian. Show me a Muslim who does not think Muhammed is an eternal example to all mankind.


I could introduce you to my best mate, Abdul.  We served together for about 6 years in the Army.  He is Turkish Cypriot by birth.  Would you like to meet him?

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Quote:
As has been indicated many times, Muslims do not worship Mohammed.


Red herring.


Nope, fact.  You appear unable to accept that for some reason, FD.  Now, what was that definition of "bigot" again?   Roll Eyes
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Re: Fairness towards a religion?
Reply #42 - Sep 15th, 2013 at 10:11pm
 
Brian Ross wrote on Sep 15th, 2013 at 9:46pm:
 
I could introduce you to my best mate, Abdul.  We served together for about 6 years in the Army.  He is Turkish Cypriot by birth.  Would you like to meet him?


Grin Grin LOL, debate by anecdote is it?  Is this what passes for intelligent debate on this forum?   

I have two muslim mates who are absolute arseholes and who bash their wives.

Therefore, in debate by anecdote I win. 

Idiot.   Roll Eyes Roll Eyes



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Re: Fairness towards a religion?
Reply #43 - Sep 16th, 2013 at 12:58pm
 
freediver wrote on Sep 15th, 2013 at 8:27am:
Brian, would you mind elaborating on this concept of fairness towards an ideology?

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 14th, 2013 at 11:46pm:
I bend over in no direction, FD.  What I want to see is a fair deal for Muslims and their religion


Would you also demand the same fairness towards Nazism, communism, fascism etc?


So, where is your criticism of those political movements, hey?  Where is your criticism of Judiasm, Hinduism and Christianity?

Looks to me like you're the hypocrite mate!   Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin
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"Pens and books are the weapons that defeat terrorism." - Malala Yousefzai, 2013.

"we will never ever solve violence while we grasp for overly simplistic solutions."
Freediver, 2007.
 
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Re: Fairness towards a religion?
Reply #44 - Sep 16th, 2013 at 7:35pm
 
Quote:
Unlike you, I recognise both my limitations and my ignorance.


Grin Grin Grin

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However, I do recognise that people and institutions deserve respect and a fair chance, FD.


Are you saying that Shariah law deserves respect?

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If you don't like your arguments being correctly identified as such, prove to us you're not a bigot or an Islamophobe - widen your focus.  You either can't or won't from what I've observed.


That's because your focus is too narrow. The only time I see you is here on the Islam board whinging that I only post here on the Islam board. You seem oblivious to this rather obvious limitation. You even build entire arguments around your blinkered ignorance - that your complete lack of awareness of other discussions I participate in proves that they don't exist.

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Your characterisation of anybody who says, "fair go!" as a "limp-wristed apologist" merely shows how deep your hatred of all things Islam and Muslim goes.


No Brian. Not anyone. Just the limp-wristed apologists.

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You do realise that resorting to ad hominem indicates you've lost the debate?


So explain why you think religion is not ideology then. Why does a religion about slaughtering Jews deserve our respect while an ideology about slaughtering Jews does not?

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I don't "make up stories", I point out where your views lead.


Do you have any concept of how idiotic this sounds? Or are you completely oblivious to your own limitations?

In your imagination. In other words, you do not address anything I actually say. You only address the crap you make up.

Quote:
I could introduce you to my best mate, Abdul.  We served together for about 6 years in the Army.  He is Turkish Cypriot by birth.  Would you like to meet him?


No thanks. Please ask him the following questions:

1) Are you a Muslim?
2) Do you think Muhammed is an example to follow?

Given your absurd insistence on dreaming up "where my views lead" and substituting that for what I actually think, I can only guess how much of your imagination you have projected onto Abdul.
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