Australian Politics Forum - 3000 BHP workers sacked

John Smith Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 78311 Gender:	Re: 3000 BHP workers sacked Reply #30 - Jun 25^th, 2014 at 8:27am Swagman wrote on Jun 24^th, 2014 at 10:10pm: John Smith wrote on Jun 24^th, 2014 at 9:29pm: a totally unrelated graph? I knew it would be too complex for you Smithy try again Swag .....this attempt was pathetic
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Swagman

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Re: 3000 BHP workers sacked
Reply #31 - Jun 25^th, 2014 at 9:58am

John Smith wrote on Jun 25^th, 2014 at 8:27am:

Swagman wrote on Jun 24^th, 2014 at 10:10pm:

John Smith wrote on Jun 24^th, 2014 at 9:29pm:

a totally unrelated graph?

I knew it would be too complex for you Smithy Cheesy

try again Swag .....this attempt was pathetic Cheesy

Ok

The graphs represent a decline in the level of capital raising in Australia compared to other places in the world for mining ventures.

Mining ventures are very risky / speculative business propositions. They require huge amounts of upfront 'capital' and a hefty punt on future commodity prices and mining outcomes.

The incentive to provide risk capital is the possibility of striking it very rich or generating huge profits for your investors (the people that risk their hard earned cash) at the end of the day. Not unlike the tens of thousands of fortune hunters that risked all to venture to the 19th century gold fields in search of the mother lode.

Like the miners that took up arms at Eureka because they were being shagged by the Govt's mining taxes, propspective mining investors are / have been put off risking their hard earned cash by the Labor Govt's super profit mining tax.

The graphs support this argument due to the fact that the decline in capital raising spans the speculation and the introduction of Labor's mining tax.

How about that? Wink

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John Smith

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Re: 3000 BHP workers sacked
Reply #32 - Jun 25^th, 2014 at 10:19am

Swagman wrote on Jun 25^th, 2014 at 9:58am:

John Smith wrote on Jun 25^th, 2014 at 8:27am:

Swagman wrote on Jun 24^th, 2014 at 10:10pm:

John Smith wrote on Jun 24^th, 2014 at 9:29pm:

a totally unrelated graph?

I knew it would be too complex for you Smithy Cheesy

try again Swag .....this attempt was pathetic Cheesy

Ok

The graphs represent a decline in the level of capital raising in Australia compared to other places in the world for mining ventures.

Mining ventures are very risky / speculative business propositions. They require huge amounts of upfront 'capital' and a hefty punt on future commodity prices and mining outcomes.

The incentive to provide risk capital is the possibility of striking it very rich or generating huge profits for your investors (the people that risk their hard earned cash) at the end of the day. Not unlike the tens of thousands of fortune hunters that risked all to venture to the 19th century gold fields in search of the mother lode.

Like the miners that took up arms at Eureka because they were being shagged by the Govt's mining taxes, propspective mining investors are / have been put off risking their hard earned cash by the Labor Govt's super profit mining tax.

The graphs support this argument due to the fact that the decline in capital raising spans the speculation and the introduction of Labor's mining tax.

How about that? Wink

see now your just making the facts suit your argument ... naughty boy

there is nothing there to indicate that any reduction in anything is because of the mining tax ....

your graph also shows a decline in percentage terms in south America and Canada ... was that also because of labors mining tax?

another point to add ... you said yourself that mining require huge amounts of 'upfront' capital ... Australia has gone beyond the upfront stage of the cycle and moving into the production stage.

Grin

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Kytro

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Re: 3000 BHP workers sacked
Reply #33 - Jun 25^th, 2014 at 10:24am

Swagman wrote on Jun 25^th, 2014 at 9:58am:

The graphs represent a decline in the level of capital raising in Australia compared to other places in the world for mining ventures.

Mining ventures are very risky / speculative business propositions. They require huge amounts of upfront 'capital' and a hefty punt on future commodity prices and mining outcomes.

The incentive to provide risk capital is the possibility of striking it very rich or generating huge profits for your investors (the people that risk their hard earned cash) at the end of the day. Not unlike the tens of thousands of fortune hunters that risked all to venture to the 19th century gold fields in search of the mother lode.

Like the miners that took up arms at Eureka because they were being shagged by the Govt's mining taxes, propspective mining investors are / have been put off risking their hard earned cash by the Labor Govt's super profit mining tax.

The graphs support this argument due to the fact that the decline in capital raising spans the speculation and the introduction of Labor's mining tax.

How about that? Wink

An interesting hypothesis, but hardly strong evidence. There is no controlling for confounding factors, no isolation of the taxation regimes impact on overall profitability, no consideration of other market forces.

In order to show that it was due to tax, short of a statement from BHP saying "it's because of the tax" you would need show that these particular costs were a deciding or at very least considerable factor, something that hasn't been done.

The iron ore market is declining, is it really so surprising that they would scale back that division?

The positive thing about mineral resources is at least they are not going anywhere. At some point people will want them, and pay for access.

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Ex Dame Pansi Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 24168	Re: 3000 BHP workers sacked Reply #34 - Jun 25^th, 2014 at 11:06am Last time BHP put off workers, Tony said it was because of the mining tax, to his embarrassment BHP came out and said that it had nothing to do with the mining tax. I wonder when someone will ask BHP the very same question this time.
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St George of the Garden

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Re: 3000 BHP workers sacked
Reply #35 - Jun 25^th, 2014 at 11:10am

Swagman wrote on Jun 25^th, 2014 at 9:58am:

John Smith wrote on Jun 25^th, 2014 at 8:27am:

Swagman wrote on Jun 24^th, 2014 at 10:10pm:

John Smith wrote on Jun 24^th, 2014 at 9:29pm:

a totally unrelated graph?

I knew it would be too complex for you Smithy Cheesy

try again Swag .....this attempt was pathetic Cheesy

Ok

The graphs represent a decline in the level of capital raising in Australia compared to other places in the world for mining ventures.

Mining ventures are very risky / speculative business propositions. They require huge amounts of upfront 'capital' and a hefty punt on future commodity prices and mining outcomes.

The incentive to provide risk capital is the possibility of striking it very rich or generating huge profits for your investors (the people that risk their hard earned cash) at the end of the day. Not unlike the tens of thousands of fortune hunters that risked all to venture to the 19th century gold fields in search of the mother lode.

Like the miners that took up arms at Eureka because they were being shagged by the Govt's mining taxes, propspective mining investors are / have been put off risking their hard earned cash by the Labor Govt's super profit mining tax.

The graphs support this argument due to the fact that the decline in capital raising spans the speculation and the introduction of Labor's mining tax.

How about that? Wink

Probably more to do with the high Aussie dollar. The miners have about finished their massive investment in their mines, don’t look like moving.

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Armchair_Politician

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Re: 3000 BHP workers sacked
Reply #36 - Jun 25^th, 2014 at 11:11am

John Smith wrote on Jun 24^th, 2014 at 9:01pm:

Swagman wrote on Jun 24^th, 2014 at 8:03pm:

John Smith wrote on Jun 24^th, 2014 at 6:23pm:

Swagman wrote on Jun 24^th, 2014 at 6:13pm:

Kytro wrote on Jun 24^th, 2014 at 4:55pm:

Swagman wrote on Jun 24^th, 2014 at 3:45pm:

Gee that carbon and mining tax is taking its toll.... Sad

Provide some actual evidence.

3000 BHP workers sacked

yes, that fine is someone wants evidece of people being sacked ... but that was not what was asked for ... try again! Cheesy

ok 3000 BHP workers sacked because of the carbon and mining taxes

see that's where you go wrong ...

you simply making a claim does not in any reality constitute evidence ...

Remember that next time you feel the urge to call Abbott a woman basher. Practice what you preach, Johnny Boy!!!

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Swagman

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Re: 3000 BHP workers sacked
Reply #37 - Jun 25^th, 2014 at 1:03pm

Kytro wrote on Jun 25^th, 2014 at 10:24am:

Swagman wrote on Jun 25^th, 2014 at 9:58am:

The graphs represent a decline in the level of capital raising in Australia compared to other places in the world for mining ventures.

Mining ventures are very risky / speculative business propositions. They require huge amounts of upfront 'capital' and a hefty punt on future commodity prices and mining outcomes.

The incentive to provide risk capital is the possibility of striking it very rich or generating huge profits for your investors (the people that risk their hard earned cash) at the end of the day. Not unlike the tens of thousands of fortune hunters that risked all to venture to the 19th century gold fields in search of the mother lode.

Like the miners that took up arms at Eureka because they were being shagged by the Govt's mining taxes, propspective mining investors are / have been put off risking their hard earned cash by the Labor Govt's super profit mining tax.

The graphs support this argument due to the fact that the decline in capital raising spans the speculation and the introduction of Labor's mining tax.

How about that? Wink

An interesting hypothesis, but hardly strong evidence. There is no controlling for confounding factors, no isolation of the taxation regimes impact on overall profitability, no consideration of other market forces.

In order to show that it was due to tax, short of a statement from BHP saying "it's because of the tax" you would need show that these particular costs were a deciding or at very least considerable factor, something that hasn't been done.

The iron ore market is declining, is it really so surprising that they would scale back that division?

The positive thing about mineral resources is at least they are not going anywhere. At some point people will want them, and pay for access.

Kytro wrote on Jun 25^th, 2014 at 10:24am:

There is no controlling for confounding factors, no isolation of the taxation regimes impact on overall profitability, no consideration of other market forces.

But there is a control, for example the capital raising decline was more pronounced in Aust compared to the other mining venture areas.. These other mining ventures were subject to the same global competition and economic factors as the Australian ventures other than Labor's super profit tax.

This supports a conclusion that potential mining investors bypassed the Australian market in preference of the lower taxing regimes.

The effect of taxation on the desire to purchase / invest is well documented.

Labor uses the carbon tax for example in an attempt to influence operating costs in an attempt to reduce CO2 emissions?

Labor increased the Alcho-pop tax significantly in an attempt to reduce binge drinking by pimply teenagers.

Therefore it is a totally reasonable analysis that Labor by introducing an additional tax on successful mining ventures (in addition to normal company profit) reduced the desire for potential mining investors to provide capital and the ability of mining companies to raise capital.

The tax was a disincentive and a major factor in the declining number of Australian mining jobs being experienced currently and my statement that the mining and carbon taxes are 'taking their toll'. Huh

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Kytro

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Re: 3000 BHP workers sacked
Reply #38 - Jun 25^th, 2014 at 1:24pm

Swagman wrote on Jun 25^th, 2014 at 1:03pm:

But there is a control, for example the capital raising decline was more pronounced in Aust compared to the other mining venture areas.. These other mining ventures were subject to the same global competition and economic factors as the Australian ventures other than Labor's super profit tax.

This supports a conclusion that potential mining investors bypassed the Australian market in preference of the lower taxing regimes.

The effect of taxation on the desire to purchase / invest is well documented.

Labor uses the carbon tax for example in an attempt to influence operating costs in an attempt to reduce CO2 emissions?

Global conditions from place to place. In one area the end of a conflict, or one starting can alter how attractive it is. If prices are high, then it worth a more costly extraction, but if they are low, it is better to hold off until they recover.

You have made no demonstration that taxation was the principle reason for these jobs being lost. You have suggested it, but show no calculations, no ruling out other factors.

Why you have is a hypothesis, and speculation. I don't expect you go into detail because it's very time consuming, but you also shouldn't have made the claim without it. YOu think it is to blame, perhaps, but not out of any careful analysis, just out of intuition.

Swagman wrote on Jun 25^th, 2014 at 1:03pm:

Labor increased the Alcho-pop tax significantly in an attempt to reduce binge drinking by pimply teenagers.

Which didn't work

Swagman wrote on Jun 25^th, 2014 at 1:03pm:

Therefore it is a totally reasonable analysis that Labor by introducing an additional tax on successful mining ventures (in addition to normal company profit) reduced the desire for potential mining investors to provide capital and the ability of mining companies to raise capital.

It only applied to particularly profitable ventures.

Swagman wrote on Jun 25^th, 2014 at 1:03pm:

The tax was a disincentive and a major factor in the declining number of Australian mining jobs being experienced currently and my statement that the mining and carbon taxes are 'taking their toll'. Huh

Disincentive, given, major factor speculative.

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Swagman

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Re: 3000 BHP workers sacked
Reply #39 - Jun 26^th, 2014 at 9:44am

Kytro wrote on Jun 25^th, 2014 at 1:24pm:

You have made no demonstration that taxation was the principle reason for these jobs being lost.

I didn't say it was the principal reason just commented in Reply # 1

Swagman wrote on Jun 24^th, 2014 at 3:45pm:

Gee that carbon and mining tax is taking its toll.... Sad

......and they have

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Kytro

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Re: 3000 BHP workers sacked
Reply #40 - Jun 26^th, 2014 at 9:51am

Swagman wrote on Jun 26^th, 2014 at 9:44am:

Kytro wrote on Jun 25^th, 2014 at 1:24pm:

You have made no demonstration that taxation was the principle reason for these jobs being lost.

I didn't say it was the principal reason just commented in Reply # 1

Swagman wrote on Jun 24^th, 2014 at 3:45pm:

Gee that carbon and mining tax is taking its toll.... Sad

......and they have

While I'm sure that any tax does have an impact on the market, that is a far call from being able to link this specific event.

Sounds like you just have an axe to grind. Well have no fear, those taxes will soon be gone if Tony is willing to negotiate.

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Swagman Gold Member Offline Beware of cheap imitations...... Posts: 15095 Illawarra NSW Gender:	Re: 3000 BHP workers sacked Reply #41 - Jun 26^th, 2014 at 10:03am Kytro wrote on Jun 26^th, 2014 at 9:51am: Sounds like you just have an axe to grind. Everyone that posts has an axe to grind... Some just have sharper axes...
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John Smith

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Re: 3000 BHP workers sacked
Reply #42 - Jun 26^th, 2014 at 10:21am

Armchair_Politician wrote on Jun 25^th, 2014 at 11:11am:

John Smith wrote on Jun 24^th, 2014 at 9:01pm:

Swagman wrote on Jun 24^th, 2014 at 8:03pm:

John Smith wrote on Jun 24^th, 2014 at 6:23pm:

Swagman wrote on Jun 24^th, 2014 at 6:13pm:

Kytro wrote on Jun 24^th, 2014 at 4:55pm:

Swagman wrote on Jun 24^th, 2014 at 3:45pm:

Gee that carbon and mining tax is taking its toll.... Sad

Provide some actual evidence.

3000 BHP workers sacked

yes, that fine is someone wants evidece of people being sacked ... but that was not what was asked for ... try again! Cheesy

ok 3000 BHP workers sacked because of the carbon and mining taxes

see that's where you go wrong ...

you simply making a claim does not in any reality constitute evidence ...

Remember that next time you feel the urge to call Abbott a woman basher. Practice what you preach, Johnny Boy!!!

when did I call Abbott a woman basher???? produce the evidence, mo ron

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Our esteemed leader:
I hope that bitch who was running their brothels for them gets raped with a cactus.

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cods

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Re: 3000 BHP workers sacked
Reply #43 - Jun 26^th, 2014 at 10:26am

Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Jun 24^th, 2014 at 4:12pm:

The price of iron ore has crashed.

GOT NOT A THING TO DO WITH CARBON TAX I AM SURE..

But don't worry Tony reckons he's the best friend the workers ever had.

LETS SEE IF IT COMES BACK TO THE PRICES LABOR WERE GETTING BUT DIDNT LEAVE A THING TO SHOW FOR IT.. EXCEPT DEBT..IF THE PRICE IS DROPPED..

BHP looks to cut thousands of jobs from its iron ore division in WA

The ABC understands up to 3,000 jobs could go from BHP's iron ore division, which currently employs 16,000 people.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-06-24/bhp-confirms-job-losses/5545820

THEY WILL GET A REDUNDANCY PACKAGE LIKE ALL THE PUBLIC SERVANTS....THEY WONT WALK OUT WITH NOTHING..

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Swagman

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Re: 3000 BHP workers sacked
Reply #44 - Jun 26^th, 2014 at 10:48am

John Smith wrote on Jun 25^th, 2014 at 10:19am:

see now your just making the facts suit your argument ... naughty boy

How dare I use facts to support my arguments... Cheesy

John Smith wrote on Jun 25^th, 2014 at 10:19am:

there is nothing there to indicate that any reduction in anything is because of the mining tax ....

I believe there is.....have a look at a few of those facts supporting my argument. Huh

John Smith wrote on Jun 25^th, 2014 at 10:19am:

your graph also shows a decline in percentage terms in south America and Canada ... was that also because of labors mining tax?

Obviously not, but the decline was less in those regions than that experienced in Australia (which I pointed out)

Even in a declining market there are still new ventures being proposed. These new ventures are more likely to go to the countries where the Govt is tax friendly not tax greedy.

John Smith wrote on Jun 25^th, 2014 at 10:19am:

another point to add ... you said yourself that mining require huge amounts of 'upfront' capital ... Australia has gone beyond the upfront stage of the cycle and moving into the production stage.

Not all mining ventures are set up and commence production in unison Smithy... Grin

There is also a time lag Smithy. The mining business Australians have missed out on due to Labor's anti-enterprise tax grab is another factor behind the declining mine jobs currently. These ventures would indeed now be entering the production phase but the jobs are in other countries arguably because the Investors sought more equitable tax regimes.

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