Australian Politics Forum - NSW govt freezes CSG exploration

Grendel

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Re: NSW govt freezes CSG exploration
Reply #75 - Mar 31^st, 2014 at 8:25am

Bam wrote on Mar 30^th, 2014 at 11:45am:

Grendel wrote on Mar 30^th, 2014 at 10:32am:

Good grief... My comment was about NSW, I'd already mentioned QLD, and they are the 2 main states involved, my comment included both sides of politics, I'm dubious about your intent, "CSG Limited" is a print and communications company...

You appear to be correct with the print company as far as ASIC registration is concerned, but it is not that simple.

The trouble with companies with three letters in their name is that it is so easy to confuse them. There's multiple companies called "CSG Limited" around the world. The one in Aberdeen is a cleaning company, then there's Credit Suisse Group.

The AFR paywall made it appear that CSG Limited was a coal seam gas company, but the AFR paywall made that unclear. Damn paywall, otherwise I would have spotted the error sooner. Good catch on your part.

Quote:

btw in both cases the major culprit has been the state Labor governments who let them get their foot in the door.

That is more an accident of history than any other cause. In 2007 when Howard lost office, how many Coalition state and territory governments were there around the country? None. Who's to say that the government of the day weren't conned by a business with a slick marketing presentation? It's not like it hasn't happened before with governments on both sides of politics.

None the less... in this case it is a fact.

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Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM

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Re: NSW govt freezes CSG exploration
Reply #76 - Mar 31^st, 2014 at 8:26am

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Mar 30^th, 2014 at 11:12pm:

Your locals are nothing to do with us mate.

Our hydraulic fracking is done by JV in Australia

Ah yes - the old corporate cut-out trick, eh?

It's not us - any problems are from that company we hired to do the work for us while we ream the cream off - just because they are hired by us doesn't mean we should accept responsibility, even if they are a subsidiary or whatever.

I see a change of laws coming here.....

Vote 1 Grappler Party....We ARE the people!

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM

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Re: NSW govt freezes CSG exploration
Reply #77 - Mar 31^st, 2014 at 8:30am

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Mar 31^st, 2014 at 1:05am:

Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Mar 30^th, 2014 at 10:26pm:

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Mar 30^th, 2014 at 9:17pm:

I think you overplay the hippy card.
That's not how it's viewed.

More that we as an industry of educating people that as a source it is no more dangerous than regular drilling now and safeguards are in place.

Yeah - but the fact remains that it is being syphoned off overseas for the profit of your company and is not going to Australians first.... while our gas prices will rise anyway.

Might as well stop it right there.....

You understand that any profits made on sales by the AU&NZ subsidiary in taxed in Australia and - one would assume - then spent to benefit Australians?

Indeed - but it is the nuts and bolts of that taxation that are the important aspect - along with the fact that every such license should carry with it a requirement to satisfy the local market first at a proper price related to effort rather than this absurd 'world parity' nonsense (same as the Ay-rabs do with petrol), and return some direct benefit to the populace rather than handing it to those corporate vultures and wastrels in Canberra to dispose of as they see fit without let or constraint.

Tax the tax dodges first - then we'll talk. Or cancel the whole deal.

To do otherwise is to permit corporate pirates to come into our agreedly third world banana republic, rip out what they want, and then sell it back to us at multiple value added.

Good business for some - not for the majority.

'We' don't need fracking - there's heaps of gas around - it's all in the deals our governments have used to sign away our use of it so they could recoup taxes and run the show totally.

On which last subject - do you not view it as bizarre that corporations expect that they will be treated to a great degree of latitude - but that the ordinary person should not be so treated? Feudal robber baron mentality right there from both corporations and governments.

Truly there is a day of judgement coming here..

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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Grendel Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 28080 Gender:	Re: NSW govt freezes CSG exploration Reply #78 - Mar 31^st, 2014 at 8:31am Andrei.Hicks wrote on Mar 30^th, 2014 at 9:17pm: I think you overplay the hippy card. That's not how it's viewed. More that we as an industry of educating people that as a source it is no more dangerous than regular drilling now and safeguards are in place. Well then EDUCATE yourself on this issue Andrei.
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Setanta

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Re: NSW govt freezes CSG exploration
Reply #79 - Mar 31^st, 2014 at 10:03am

Is there really the gas shortage that CSG companies spruik?

http://www.smh.com.au/business/nsw-to-press-on-with-coal-seam-gas-hartcher-20120...
Quote:

Yesterday BHP Billiton Petroleum chief Mike Yeager told journalists the company had plenty of gas for sale to supply east coast markets.

“We want to make sure that the market knows that the Bass Strait field still has a large amount of gas that's undeveloped,”.Mr Yeager said. “We have a lot of gas in eastern Australia that's available. It's more important to let the citizens of Victoria and New South Wales, and to some degree, you know, even Queensland .. there's plenty of gas to supply those provinces for - you know, indefinitely.

“We have gas for sale and we will work with anybody at any time,” he said.

Or is the real gas shortage they want to fill in China?

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Grendel

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Re: NSW govt freezes CSG exploration
Reply #80 - Mar 31^st, 2014 at 10:13am

Setanta wrote on Mar 31^st, 2014 at 10:03am:

Is there really the gas shortage that CSG companies spruik?

http://www.smh.com.au/business/nsw-to-press-on-with-coal-seam-gas-hartcher-20120...
Quote:

Yesterday BHP Billiton Petroleum chief Mike Yeager told journalists the company had plenty of gas for sale to supply east coast markets.

“We want to make sure that the market knows that the Bass Strait field still has a large amount of gas that's undeveloped,”.Mr Yeager said. “We have a lot of gas in eastern Australia that's available. It's more important to let the citizens of Victoria and New South Wales, and to some degree, you know, even Queensland .. there's plenty of gas to supply those provinces for - you know, indefinitely.

“We have gas for sale and we will work with anybody at any time,” he said.

Or is the real gas shortage they want to fill in China?

I think I heard a comment from someone in the industry that if we were to stop exporting at the rate we are there'd be plenty of gas way into the future for all Australians.
Gas companies want to keep exporting they'd export all our gas if the could.

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Andrei.Hicks

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Re: NSW govt freezes CSG exploration
Reply #81 - Mar 31^st, 2014 at 10:23am

Grendel wrote on Mar 31^st, 2014 at 10:13am:

Setanta wrote on Mar 31^st, 2014 at 10:03am:

Is there really the gas shortage that CSG companies spruik?

http://www.smh.com.au/business/nsw-to-press-on-with-coal-seam-gas-hartcher-20120...
Quote:

Yesterday BHP Billiton Petroleum chief Mike Yeager told journalists the company had plenty of gas for sale to supply east coast markets.

“We want to make sure that the market knows that the Bass Strait field still has a large amount of gas that's undeveloped,”.Mr Yeager said. “We have a lot of gas in eastern Australia that's available. It's more important to let the citizens of Victoria and New South Wales, and to some degree, you know, even Queensland .. there's plenty of gas to supply those provinces for - you know, indefinitely.

“We have gas for sale and we will work with anybody at any time,” he said.

Or is the real gas shortage they want to fill in China?

I think I heard a comment from someone in the industry that if we were to stop exporting at the rate we are there'd be plenty of gas way into the future for all Australians.
Gas companies want to keep exporting they'd export all our gas if the could.

There's such a thing called global supply and demand.
You want to go protectionist and put up a barrier of trade restricting it to domestic only??

Not sure I'd advise a little country to do that.

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mantra

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Re: NSW govt freezes CSG exploration
Reply #82 - Mar 31^st, 2014 at 10:34am

Grendel wrote on Mar 31^st, 2014 at 10:13am:

I think I heard a comment from someone in the industry that if we were to stop exporting at the rate we are there'd be plenty of gas way into the future for all Australians.
Gas companies want to keep exporting they'd export all our gas if the could.

The media is finally paying some attention to this looming crisis. There is some indication that a huge number of Australian businesses will close their doors - not because of a carbon tax, but the price of gas due to a short supply. In fact in the next few years we may not have enough gas to accommodate Australians/businesses.

Most western countries reserve a percentage of their gas in the national interest, but not Australia. We're going to run out because we are exporting most of it and local industry can't afford the domestic prices.

Successive governments have ignored this problem, but someone has to do something about it now.

Quote:

Thousands of job losses have been announced in Australia in the past year, but the numbers will pale by comparison to what lies ahead due to high gas prices, according to major manufacturers.

The association representing Australian manufacturers believes more than 100,000 jobs will be lost unless the Federal Government intervenes to solve an increasing gas shortage that is pushing up prices for households and heavily job-laden industries.

The irony is that Australia is producing more gas than ever, and is on track to become the world's largest exporter of gas, with contracts to supply fuel-starved Asian markets prepared to pay triple the prices Australians do for energy.

The manufacturing industry says it wants a system similar to the US where gas is not exported unless it first meets a national interest test.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-03-27/gas-boom-threatens-australian-manufacturin...

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Setanta Gold Member Offline \/ Peace man! Posts: 16953 Northern NSW Gender:	Re: NSW govt freezes CSG exploration Reply #83 - Mar 31^st, 2014 at 10:35am Conventional gas reserves from http://data.daff.gov.au/data/warehouse/pe_aera_d9aae_002/aeraCh_04.pdf CSG is certainly not needed for Australia's needs.
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Dsmithy70

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Re: NSW govt freezes CSG exploration
Reply #84 - Mar 31^st, 2014 at 10:49am

mantra wrote on Mar 31^st, 2014 at 10:34am:

Grendel wrote on Mar 31^st, 2014 at 10:13am:

I think I heard a comment from someone in the industry that if we were to stop exporting at the rate we are there'd be plenty of gas way into the future for all Australians.
Gas companies want to keep exporting they'd export all our gas if the could.

The media is finally paying some attention to this looming crisis. There is some indication that a huge number of Australian businesses will close their doors - not because of a carbon tax, but the price of gas due to a short supply. In fact in the next few years we may not have enough gas to accommodate Australians/businesses.

Most western countries reserve a percentage of their gas in the national interest, but not Australia. We're going to run out because we are exporting most of it and local industry can't afford the domestic prices.

Successive governments have ignored this problem, but someone has to do something about it now.

Quote:

Thousands of job losses have been announced in Australia in the past year, but the numbers will pale by comparison to what lies ahead due to high gas prices, according to major manufacturers.

The association representing Australian manufacturers believes more than 100,000 jobs will be lost unless the Federal Government intervenes to solve an increasing gas shortage that is pushing up prices for households and heavily job-laden industries.

The irony is that Australia is producing more gas than ever, and is on track to become the world's largest exporter of gas, with contracts to supply fuel-starved Asian markets prepared to pay triple the prices Australians do for energy.

The manufacturing industry says it wants a system similar to the US where gas is not exported unless it first meets a national interest test.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-03-27/gas-boom-threatens-australian-manufacturin...

Quote:

"Anyone such as Chris Hartcher (NSW Energy Minister) or the Australian Petroleum Production and Exploration Association (APPEA), or the Energy Supply Association of Australia (ESAA) campaigning for more domestic gas to be brought online is doing a benevolent act for the coal seam gas export industry, an industry geared up for providing international consumers, who will pay higher prices, with gas, not Australian gas consumers..

"If you could imagine a new oil field as big as the super fields in South Australia coming online in Tasmania or in the Great Australian Bight, it wouldn't lower petrol prices at your local service station, it wouldn't change that one iota as the price is set in Singapore, London or New York. The same goes for gas, once we're linked to international markets that is the price the domestic industry will have to pay, the asia price, the global price. And remember the domestic gas industry is the oil industry, they're the oil and gas industry, peas in the same pod.

"Gas supplies less than 10 per cent of NSW energy demand and historically that has all been imported from South Australia's Cooper Basin via Moomba and Victoria,” Mr Wright said.

”NSW never supplied its own gas, was never self-sufficient and therefore cannot run out. The supplies that are already connected and available to NSW consumers from Victoria and South Australia aren't about to run out any time soon either.

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Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM

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Re: NSW govt freezes CSG exploration
Reply #85 - Mar 31^st, 2014 at 10:54am

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Mar 31^st, 2014 at 10:23am:

Grendel wrote on Mar 31^st, 2014 at 10:13am:

Setanta wrote on Mar 31^st, 2014 at 10:03am:

Is there really the gas shortage that CSG companies spruik?

http://www.smh.com.au/business/nsw-to-press-on-with-coal-seam-gas-hartcher-20120...
Quote:

Yesterday BHP Billiton Petroleum chief Mike Yeager told journalists the company had plenty of gas for sale to supply east coast markets.

“We want to make sure that the market knows that the Bass Strait field still has a large amount of gas that's undeveloped,”.Mr Yeager said. “We have a lot of gas in eastern Australia that's available. It's more important to let the citizens of Victoria and New South Wales, and to some degree, you know, even Queensland .. there's plenty of gas to supply those provinces for - you know, indefinitely.

“We have gas for sale and we will work with anybody at any time,” he said.

Or is the real gas shortage they want to fill in China?

I think I heard a comment from someone in the industry that if we were to stop exporting at the rate we are there'd be plenty of gas way into the future for all Australians.
Gas companies want to keep exporting they'd export all our gas if the could.

There's such a thing called global supply and demand.
You want to go protectionist and put up a barrier of trade restricting it to domestic only??

Not sure I'd advise a little country to do that.

Indeed there is - but who says we need to play on that field?

The global supply and demand will continue and will still seek our resources regardless of whether or not we FIRST satisfy our own markets internally at a reasonable price - and not the jumped-up export it first then buy it back price that benefits companies two ways - firstly by giving them all the tax breaks for exporting - secondly by gaining that 'value added' price from US after we buy it back in one form or another.

Good business for the middle men ONLY, and one massive social reversion to the days of the Empire and firstly exploiting the 'lesser peoples' for their resources, and then selling it back to them as 'finished goods' etc.

Now WE are the 'lesser peoples' - due to this piratical style of 'business' that our governments of both sides have actively promoted.

So - let's just say we refuse you an export licence until our local market is filled at a fair internal price - you can offshore the surplus.

Still want to leave the deal? Not On Your Life!

Our local market is miniscule - I see no reason for your ilk to rip us off both ways over resources in our own country. consider it a part of your contract from now on.

So - are you suggesting that if we close the shutters a little - as a small country we will be invaded?

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mantra

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Re: NSW govt freezes CSG exploration
Reply #86 - Mar 31^st, 2014 at 2:50pm

Setanta wrote on Mar 31^st, 2014 at 10:35am:

Conventional gas reserves from http://data.daff.gov.au/data/warehouse/pe_aera_d9aae_002/aeraCh_04.pdf
CSG is certainly not needed for Australia's needs.

According to Australian manufacturing we do need it. Just because we're a small country doesn't mean we have to be stupid.

WA sets aside 15% of their gas for local needs.

Quote:

Australian gas producers hoarding stock for export: manufacturers

Along the east coast, manufacturers say big gas producers are now cutting back gas supply contracts for local industry to hoard gas for export.

It is a trend that has increased as huge new LNG shipping facilities off Gladstone in Queensland get closer to completion.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-03-27/gas-boom-threatens-australian-manufacturin...

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Setanta

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Re: NSW govt freezes CSG exploration
Reply #87 - Mar 31^st, 2014 at 3:19pm

mantra wrote on Mar 31^st, 2014 at 2:50pm:

Setanta wrote on Mar 31^st, 2014 at 10:35am:

Conventional gas reserves from http://data.daff.gov.au/data/warehouse/pe_aera_d9aae_002/aeraCh_04.pdf
CSG is certainly not needed for Australia's needs.

According to Australian manufacturing we do need it. Just because we're a small country doesn't mean we have to be stupid.

WA sets aside 15% of their gas for local needs.

Quote:

Australian gas producers hoarding stock for export: manufacturers

Along the east coast, manufacturers say big gas producers are now cutting back gas supply contracts for local industry to hoard gas for export.

It is a trend that has increased as huge new LNG shipping facilities off Gladstone in Queensland get closer to completion.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-03-27/gas-boom-threatens-australian-manufacturin...

Nah, we don't need CSG, there's plenty of conventional natural gas. As you point out it's being exported, the same will happen with CSG and the manufactures will still be no better off. We should shelve CSG and force the gas companies to reserve gas for our needs and sell the remainder.

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skippy.

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Re: NSW govt freezes CSG exploration
Reply #88 - Mar 31^st, 2014 at 3:41pm

I had a quick look did not notice this so here it is, sorry to Setanta if he has already posted it. At the Bentley protest there were over two thousand people camped out there last night. Considering Lismore only has a population of around 40000 including its villages that is a huge amount. More of course turned up today, I heard the two thousand plus figure on the way to work at 7 am this morning.

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Setanta

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Re: NSW govt freezes CSG exploration
Reply #89 - Mar 31^st, 2014 at 3:55pm

skippy. wrote on Mar 31^st, 2014 at 3:41pm:

I had a quick look did not notice this so here it is, sorry to Setanta if he has already posted it. At the Bentley protest there were over two thousand people camped out there last night. Considering Lismore only has a population of around 40000 including its villages that is a huge amount. More of course turned up today, I heard the two thousand plus figure on the way to work at 7 am this morning.

No, I hadn't posted that yet. I was waiting for pics to post to show the "rent a crowd" of filthy hippies. Wink

Cops didn't turn up today apparently because of the number, they have 100 police and 100 riot squad standing by using Bentley RFS station as it's command centre.. The RFS are not pleased, the OK was given in Sydney, not locally.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/lockthegatealliance/sets/72157643149394724

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« Last Edit: Mar 31^st, 2014 at 4:08pm by Setanta »

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