Australian Politics Forum - beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?

freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 51999 At my desk.	Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an? Reply #75 - Feb 1^st, 2014 at 12:49pm Stratos wrote on Feb 1^st, 2014 at 12:06pm: A truly heroic example of misrepresentation Freediver It must get so tiring leaping to all those comclusions How would you interpret Islamic law's stance on the rape of wives and sex slaves?
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Stratos

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Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Reply #76 - Feb 1^st, 2014 at 1:08pm

freediver wrote on Feb 1^st, 2014 at 12:49pm:

How would you interpret Islamic law's stance on the rape of wives and sex slaves?

Whats that got to do with it?

You take on example from someone and just take it to it's most extreme conclusion you can possibly think of in spite of what has actually been said.

Oh gandalf supports capital punishment. Oh well then he must also advocate killing extended families and rape.

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Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 15^th, 2014 at 11:24pm:

Thus killing those Canaanite babies while they were still innocent, was a particularly merciful act

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moses

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Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Reply #77 - Feb 1^st, 2014 at 1:39pm

gandalf wrote
Quote:

The Bible is Christian doctrine - which includes both testaments.

gandalf why do you ignore the New Testament teachings which are Christian doctrine?

Why do you try and equate the ancient Mosaic / Judaic Law with Christian Doctrine?

Why the deceit gandalf?

once again I quote:

Quote:

Luke 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached , and every man presseth into it.

Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

Now it is very clear that Christians were told to divest themselves of the Jewish Covenant / laws. Christians live under a New Covenant with God.

gandalf wrote:
Quote:

No, really we haven't. Once again, please quote the islamic texts that "SANCTION" rape and pillage.

I refer you to:
Quote:

Chapter (24) sūrat l-nūr (The Light)
And let those who cannot find a match keep chaste till Allah give them independence by His grace. And such of your slaves as seek a writing (of emancipation), write it for them if ye are aware of aught of good in them, and bestow upon them of the wealth of Allah which He hath bestowed upon you. Force not your slave-girls to whoredom that ye may seek enjoyment of the life of the world, if they would preserve their chastity. And if one force them, then after their compulsion, lo! Allah will be Forgiving, Merciful.

This quiet clearly sanctions muslims forcing girls into prostitution / rape

Again refer to:
Quote:

Al-Anfal 8:41:
And know that whatever of war-booty that you may gain, verily one-fifth (1/5th) of it is assigned to Allâh, and to the Messenger, and to the near relatives [of the Messenger (Muhammad SAW)], (and also) the orphans, Al-Masâkin (the poor) and the wayfarer, if you have believed in Allâh and in that which We sent down to Our slave (Muhammad SAW) on the Day of criterion (between right and wrong), the Day when the two forces met (the battle of Badr) - And Allâh is Able to do all things.

Al-Ahzab 33:27:
And He caused you to inherit their lands, and their houses, and their riches, and a land which you had not trodden (before). And Allâh is Able to do all things.

Both clearly sanction pillage. You can't get booty if you stay at home peacefully, you have to be the aggressor and invade to collect your spoils of war, in the land you have not trodden before

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polite_gandalf

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Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Reply #78 - Feb 1^st, 2014 at 2:48pm

freediver wrote on Feb 1^st, 2014 at 11:59am:

Muhammed got Jews to pass the judgement and carry out the actual executions. It helped prevent another backlash among the Jews. It's a bit like Pontious Pilate, except that Muhammed played the role of both raving lunatic and pliant bureaucrat.

lol not even close.

The man who passed judgment was Sa'd ibn Mua'dh, a prominent member of the Aws tribe. The Aws were not jewish. Please get a clue about the actual facts before spinning some pathetic crap about Pontius Pilate or whatever.

freediver wrote on Feb 1^st, 2014 at 11:59am:

There is direct evidence that they supported Muhammed.

Yes, well after that last gem about who passed judgment on the Qurayza, you'll forgive me if I treat your claims about "evidence" and facts with the contempt that it deserves.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Reply #79 - Feb 1^st, 2014 at 3:01pm

moses wrote on Feb 1^st, 2014 at 1:39pm:

gandalf why do you ignore the New Testament teachings which are Christian doctrine?

Why do you try and equate the ancient Mosaic / Judaic Law with Christian Doctrine?

I really tried to discuss this with Yadda. I asked him if the NT abrogates the OT in christian doctrine - he is adamant that it doesn't. I also questioned whether the "spare none who breathe" quote could have been a reporting error - since I understand (and correct me if I'm wrong) that the bible is not considered as the direct word of God - unlike how muslims consider the Quran. But he seemed to dismiss that idea as well.

So what are we left with? Help me understand Moses - how can we get around the fact that God - as in the Christian God - directly ordered his people to kill every man, woman and child in Canaan? Doesn't sound very "christian" to me. I don't see why its so hard for christians to say that there was some chinese whisper effect between the communication from God to Joshua down through the Israelites until it eventually got to the person who wrote that passage of the OT. And the fact that the Israelites didn't even come close to fulfilling that order lends credence to the view that its because they weren't ordered to slaughter an entire population in the first place. Even apart from the moral aspect, there is no strategic value whatsoever in killing children when you can adopt them into your society and bring them up as God-fearing Israelites.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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moses

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Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Reply #80 - Feb 1^st, 2014 at 4:03pm

gandalf wrote:
Quote:

I really tried to discuss this with Yadda. I asked him if the NT abrogates the OT in christian doctrine - he is adamant that it doesn't. I also questioned whether the "spare none who breathe" quote could have been a reporting error - since I understand (and correct me if I'm wrong) that the bible is not considered as the direct word of God - unlike how muslims consider the Quran. But he seemed to dismiss that idea as well.

So what are we left with? Help me understand Moses - how can we get around the fact that God - as in the Christian God - directly ordered his people to kill every man, woman and child in Canaan? Doesn't sound very "christian" to me. I don't see why its so hard for christians to say that there was some chinese whisper effect between the communication from God to Joshua down through the Israelites until it eventually got to the person who wrote that passage of the OT. And the fact that the Israelites didn't even come close to fulfilling that order lends credence to the view that its because they weren't ordered to slaughter an entire population in the first place. Even apart from the moral aspect, there is no strategic value whatsoever in killing children when you can adopt them into your society and bring them up as God-fearing Israelites.

I reiterate gandalf:

Quote:

Luke 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached , and every man presseth into it.

Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

It seems extremely clear to me that Christians were told to divest themselves of the Jewish laws.

Christians live under a New Covenant with God.

The Bible consists of two Testaments.

The Old Testament is a record of the covenant solely between God and the Jews.

The New Testament is a record of the gospel depicting the New Covenant between God and all mankind who will receive it.

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Stratos

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Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Reply #81 - Feb 1^st, 2014 at 4:09pm

I'd be very interested to hear this conversation between Moses and Pete or Yadda play out. There are other bible passages Moses that seem to indicate that the Old Testament is still relevant, such as in Matthew 5 17-19, which appears to contradict the passages you have provided. That was spoken by Jesus too, and he clearly states that

Quote:

19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

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Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 15^th, 2014 at 11:24pm:

Thus killing those Canaanite babies while they were still innocent, was a particularly merciful act

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freediver

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Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Reply #82 - Feb 1^st, 2014 at 8:02pm

Quote:

Whats that got to do with it?

That's what we were discussing. If you would like to comment on something specific, go ahead.

Quote:

You take on example from someone and just take it to it's most extreme conclusion you can possibly think of in spite of what has actually been said.

Not in spite of, because of. And I give them every opportunity to discredit my interpretation. I encourage them to.

Quote:

Oh gandalf supports capital punishment. Oh well then he must also advocate killing extended families and rape.

Perhaps you should let Gandalf speak for himself. The example he was referring to supporting involved the execution of every adult male in a tribe of Jews after defeating them in battle - roughly 800 men. Muhammed himself took one of the wives as his sex slave.

Quote:

The man who passed judgment was Sa'd ibn Mua'dh, a prominent member of the Aws tribe. The Aws were not jewish. Please get a clue about the actual facts before spinning some pathetic crap about Pontius Pilate or whatever.

Fair enough. Muhammed got the Aws (their previous allies) to pass the judgement and made a lot of them carry out the executions, to prevent a backlash among the Aws. A bit like Pontious Pilate, except that Muhammed played both the role of raving lunatic and pliant bureaucrat.

Is that more politically correct?

Quote:

Even apart from the moral aspect, there is no strategic value whatsoever in killing children when you can adopt them into your society and bring them up as God-fearing Israelites.

You may not have noticed gandalf, given how busy you are projecting Islamic standards onto everyone, but the Jews are not real keen on spreading Judaism by kidnapping non-Jewish children. They are pretty much the opposite of Islam in this regard.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Reply #83 - Feb 1^st, 2014 at 8:42pm

freediver wrote on Feb 1^st, 2014 at 8:02pm:

Fair enough. Muhammed got the Aws (their previous allies) to pass the judgement and made a lot of them carry out the executions, to prevent a backlash among the Aws. A bit like Pontious Pilate, except that Muhammed played both the role of raving lunatic and pliant bureaucrat.

Is that more politically correct?

Perhaps, but its still not factually correct.

The Quraysa themselves requested the Aws judge them according to jewish law.

I will give it to you though - you have some spunk getting repeatedly slapped down after exposing your outrageous lies to be built purely on demonstrably incorrect facts, and then still be able to come up swinging. I would have thought most people would show some humility and partake in some humble reflection after such humiliations.

freediver wrote on Feb 1^st, 2014 at 8:02pm:

You may not have noticed gandalf, given how busy you are projecting Islamic standards onto everyone, but the Jews are not real keen on spreading Judaism by kidnapping non-Jewish children.

Um yeah... presumably putting these kids to the sword is the more humane approach. Tongue

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Baronvonrort

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Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Reply #84 - Feb 1^st, 2014 at 8:53pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 1^st, 2014 at 2:48pm:

The man who passed judgment was Sa'd ibn Mua'dh, a prominent member of the Aws tribe. The Aws were not jewish. Please get a clue about the actual facts before spinning some pathetic crap about Pontius Pilate or whatever.

So what was the bodycount for muslims from the Banu Qurayza's so called treachery, was it zip zero zilch?

It was Mohammad who had the final word on whether the 900 jewish men had their heads chopped off along with enslaving the women and children and stealing the wealth of the jews.

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Leftists and the Ayatollahs have a lot in common when it comes to criticism of Islam, they don't tolerate it.

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Baronvonrort Gold Member Online Australian Politics Posts: 20211 Gender:	Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an? Reply #85 - Feb 1^st, 2014 at 8:55pm polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 1^st, 2014 at 8:42pm: The Quraysa themselves requested the Aws judge them according to jewish law. Can you cite any jewish sources for this or were they exterminated and unable to write about it? How long after the event were the Islamic sources published?
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Baronvonrort

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Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Reply #86 - Feb 1^st, 2014 at 9:04pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 1^st, 2014 at 10:04am:

Archangel Gabriel told him to subdue the powerful tribe who had just betrayed him by treating with the guys who were laying siege to Medina to open up a second front against Muhammad.

I refuse to acknowledge that every decision taken by Muhammad specific to him being head of a small state in 7th century Arabia is a specific "command" for muslims in all time and place to follow.

No I don't. I have no problem with executing traitors who conspired to anhialate the muslim nation.

So some imaginary person in the sky told Mo to attack the jews, how many muslims were killed in this second front was it zip zero zilch?

What does 33/21 say Gandalf,does it say to follow Mo the pedo's example,did you agree with it in another thread?
www.quran.com/33/21

So you do not have a problem with executing people for apostasy,when did that change or were you bullshitting before?

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Leftists and the Ayatollahs have a lot in common when it comes to criticism of Islam, they don't tolerate it.

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an? Reply #87 - Feb 1^st, 2014 at 9:28pm You are absolutely correct Baron - no (known) muslims were killed in the Qurayza's attempts to bring down the islamic state from the inside. I guess that makes it perfectly alright then.
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Pete Waldo

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Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Reply #88 - Feb 1^st, 2014 at 10:11pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 1^st, 2014 at 8:08am:

Pete Waldo wrote on Feb 1^st, 2014 at 1:14am:

beheaded the innocent, peaceful, faithful Banu Qurayza Jewish farm boys, and their dads and grandpas - who never struck a blow

Sometimes it is worthwhile reading your posts Pete - for pure entertainment value.

You had requested:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 31^st, 2014 at 11:29pm:

Once again, please quote the islamic texts that

"SANCTION"

rape and pillage.

I gave you unequivocal texts regarding the mass murder, rape, coitus interruptus and thievery of Muhammad and his fellow cutthroats. The man whose behavior his followers are expected imitate and emulate.

Bukhari B78 #627 Narrated 'Aisha: The Prophet said, "O followers of Muhammad!"

So your reply to my post is that you find it entertaining that you follow an illiterate 7th century SW Arabian desert dwelling moral reprobate, who was responsible for the beheading of those innocent, peaceful, faithful Jewish farm boys and their dads and grandpas, and the rape of their little sisters, moms and grandmothers, and the theft of their property?
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/jesus_or_muhammad.htm#banu_qurayza

Tabari VIII:38 "The Messenger of Allah commanded that all of the Jewish men and boys who had reached puberty should be beheaded. Then the Prophet divided the wealth, wives, and children of the Banu Qurayza Jews among the Muslims."

Abu Dawud 38:4390 Narrated Atiyyah al-Qurazi: I was among the captives of Banu Qurayza. They (the Companions) examined us, and those who had begun to grow hair (pubes) were killed, and those who had not were not killed. I was among those who had not grown hair.

Tabari VIII:35/Ishaq:464 "The Jews were made to come down, and Allah's Messenger imprisoned them. Then the Prophet went out into the marketplace of Medina (it is still its marketplace today), and he had trenches dug in it. He sent for the Jewish men and had them beheaded in those trenches. They were brought out to him in batches. They numbered 800 to 900 boys and men."

You didn't answer the question gandalf. Did the Muhammadans
rape
the women of the Banu Quraiza, or do you believe those girls and women

desired to have sex

with the men responsible for beheading their little sons, husbands, brothers, fathers and grandfathers, and rape of their little daughters, sisters and mothers?

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« Last Edit: Feb 1^st, 2014 at 10:54pm by Pete Waldo »

Truth can never be told so as to be understood and not be believed. ~ William Blake

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freediver

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Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Reply #89 - Feb 1^st, 2014 at 10:15pm

Quote:

I will give it to you though - you have some spunk getting repeatedly slapped down after exposing your outrageous lies to be built purely on demonstrably incorrect facts, and then still be able to come up swinging.

Oh the shame. I got an ancient Arab tribe confused with a Jewish one. Roll Eyes

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 1^st, 2014 at 9:28pm:

You are absolutely correct Baron - no (known) muslims were killed in the Qurayza's attempts to bring down the islamic state from the inside.

I guess that makes it perfectly alright then.

There is a big difference between "perfectly alright" and "I kill you. I kill you all. And ride off on your women."

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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