Australian Politics Forum - Gun laws in Australia

Baronvonrort

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Re: Gun laws in Australia
Reply #2100 - Sep 2^nd, 2015 at 3:35pm

Pho Huc wrote on Sep 2^nd, 2015 at 2:59pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Sep 2^nd, 2015 at 12:26pm:

Pho Huc wrote on Sep 2^nd, 2015 at 12:00pm:

Gun ownership is not at Port Arthur levels. Whoever wrote this needs to learn some basic maths. We now have the same total number of firearms in Australia as we did in 1996.

640,000 guns were surrendered during the compensated confiscation,by mid 2012 we had imported over 1 million guns to replace the 640,000 surrendered.

Gun ownership is above Pt Arthur levels, it's not like the green supporting hoplophobes ever stick to facts

The Shooters and Fishers party sent me a email saying we have just topped 1 million firearm licence holders in Australia.

Sydney.edu.au/news/84.html?newsstoryid=10824

We have our largest ever number of legal guns while simultaneously having our lowest ever gun crime.
In Australia more guns has resulted in less firearm crime,a fact the hoplophobes ignore.

Sigh.
To determine the ratio of guns to people you need the number of guns, and the number of people.
The number of guns has increased since 1996. Just no where near as much as the number of people.
Therefore the % of people owning or having access to a firearm has dropped in the last 20 years,

Its very basic maths.

In NSW we had 619,643 registered firearms in 2001
In 2015 we have 850,636 registered guns according to David Shoebridge
davidshoebridge.org.au/2015/08/03/nsw-gun-numbers-soar-850-000-now-registered-ac...
According to David's police link not all firearm licence holders actually own guns.

So using your basic maths what percentage increase in gun numbers have we had since 2001,what percentage has the population increased by?

More legally owned guns in Australia has resulted in lower rates of gun crimes.

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Baronvonrort

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Re: Gun laws in Australia
Reply #2101 - Sep 2^nd, 2015 at 3:39pm

Pho Huc wrote on Sep 2^nd, 2015 at 3:10pm:

But at least one study has shown that defensive gun use succeeds only rarely, and that gun owners are 4.5 times more likely to be shot during an assault [source: Branas, et al.].

Can you cite these statistics on defensive gun use or do gun grabbers pluck them from their asses?

If someone surrenders when a gun is pointed at them without a shot being fired is that defensive gun use?

If an armed robber points a gun at someone at says empty the till is that armed robbery even if no shots are fired?

The estimates I have seen for defensive gun use puts it over 2 million per year with none of them shot.

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|dev|null

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Re: Gun laws in Australia
Reply #2102 - Sep 2^nd, 2015 at 3:46pm

Baronvonrort wrote on Sep 2^nd, 2015 at 3:39pm:

Pho Huc wrote on Sep 2^nd, 2015 at 3:10pm:

But at least one study has shown that defensive gun use succeeds only rarely, and that gun owners are 4.5 times more likely to be shot during an assault [source: Branas, et al.].

Can you cite these statistics on defensive gun use or do gun grabbers pluck them from their asses?

I wasn't aware that we supported the ownership of Donkeys Baron. Grin

Quote:

If someone surrenders when a gun is pointed at them without a shot being fired is that defensive gun use?

If an armed robber points a gun at someone at says empty the till is that armed robbery even if no shots are fired?

The estimates I have seen for defensive gun use puts it over 2 million per year with none of them shot.

Of course not 'cause they don't count the victims in the affair, unless they're the criminal! Grin

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easel

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Re: Gun laws in Australia
Reply #2103 - Sep 2^nd, 2015 at 3:47pm

If there is a problem with people performing criminal acts, there is a problem with people performing criminal acts. This has nothing to do with guns, gun laws or firearm availability.

It is a social problem. As evident by the fact that the Columbine shooters were bullied in school, and lived in an area where there was high firearm availability yet not everyone else was doing the shooting.

It is a social problem.

I find restricting firearm ownership to be a concern.

If someone wants to kill an individual they can use a knife. Or petrol and a lighter. Or a baseball bat. Or a shovel.

Removing firearms does not remove the murder rate.

I think firearms should be available in case of emergencies, such as a breakdown of society or an overly oppressive government, such as in Nazi Germany, so as to help the population resist crimes against humanity.

Or for home invasions.

Self defence is not a reason to own a firearm in Australia. And in similar countries where firearms are outlawed, pepper spray for self defence is legal. But not here.

I find this to be extremely concerning. I do not think police and government should be without a means to be resisted in an emergency. That they feel that firearms are a threat to society, rather than their actions and procedures causing social divide, highlights that they are aware and fearful that their actions are having widespread negative consequences.

And that people are not people, but to be treated as cattle.

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Pho Huc

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Re: Gun laws in Australia
Reply #2104 - Sep 2^nd, 2015 at 4:03pm

I don't know why you are using the 2001 date as your yardstick, I was talking 1996 to Present.
Since I cannot access data newer than three old i will use 1996-2012 data from ABS.

1996
Australian population 18.31 million . Number of guns 3.25 million
.17 guns per person.

2012
Australian population 22.72 million. Number of guns 3 million.

.13 guns per person.

Its really not that complicated.
The only reason I would have to do this for you would be because you were to lazy to crunch the numbers your self, or to incompetent to find the data.

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Pho Huc Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 985 Victoria Gender:	Re: Gun laws in Australia Reply #2105 - Sep 2^nd, 2015 at 4:05pm easel wrote on Sep 2^nd, 2015 at 3:47pm: If someone wants to kill an individual they can use a knife. Or petrol and a lighter. Or a baseball bat. Or a shovel. But if someone wants to kill ten people its much easier with self loading firearms. Controlling firearms does not stop murder. It does reduce mass murder though,
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Pho Huc

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Re: Gun laws in Australia
Reply #2106 - Sep 2^nd, 2015 at 4:07pm

Baronvonrort wrote on Sep 2^nd, 2015 at 3:39pm:

Pho Huc wrote on Sep 2^nd, 2015 at 3:10pm:

But at least one study has shown that defensive gun use succeeds only rarely, and that gun owners are 4.5 times more likely to be shot during an assault [source: Branas, et al.].

Can you cite these statistics on defensive gun use or do gun grabbers pluck them from their asses?

You have posted my quote with the source (Branas).

Please feel free to read his paper for the statistical bases of my statement.

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Baronvonrort

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Re: Gun laws in Australia
Reply #2107 - Sep 2^nd, 2015 at 4:10pm

Pho Huc wrote on Sep 2^nd, 2015 at 4:05pm:

easel wrote on Sep 2^nd, 2015 at 3:47pm:

If someone wants to kill an individual they can use a knife. Or petrol and a lighter. Or a baseball bat. Or a shovel.

But if someone wants to kill ten people its much easier with self loading firearms.
Controlling firearms does not stop murder. It does reduce mass murder though,

Our second worst mass shooting had 10 people killed with a single shot bolt action .22lr rifle.

The worst cases of mass murders in NSW,QLD and VIC were from fires.

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Baronvonrort

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Re: Gun laws in Australia
Reply #2108 - Sep 2^nd, 2015 at 4:12pm

Pho Huc wrote on Sep 2^nd, 2015 at 4:07pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Sep 2^nd, 2015 at 3:39pm:

Pho Huc wrote on Sep 2^nd, 2015 at 3:10pm:

But at least one study has shown that defensive gun use succeeds only rarely, and that gun owners are 4.5 times more likely to be shot during an assault [source: Branas, et al.].

Can you cite these statistics on defensive gun use or do gun grabbers pluck them from their asses?

You have posted my quote with the source (Branas).

Please feel free to read his paper for the statistical bases of my statement.

They don't collect statistics for defensive gun use in the USA.

How accurate can a paper be when they don't have data on that?

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easel

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Re: Gun laws in Australia
Reply #2109 - Sep 2^nd, 2015 at 4:23pm

Pho Huc wrote on Sep 2^nd, 2015 at 4:05pm:

easel wrote on Sep 2^nd, 2015 at 3:47pm:

If someone wants to kill an individual they can use a knife. Or petrol and a lighter. Or a baseball bat. Or a shovel.

But if someone wants to kill ten people its much easier with self loading firearms.
Controlling firearms does not stop murder. It does reduce mass murder though,

Yeah but that's a social problem. Nothing to do with guns. And killing 10 people without guns is doable.

Quote:

A knife-wielding attacker has gone on a stabbing spree aboard a Taipei subway train, killing four people and wounding 21 others, police say.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-05-21/taiwan-subway-knife-attack/5469136

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Baronvonrort

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Re: Gun laws in Australia
Reply #2110 - Sep 2^nd, 2015 at 4:26pm

Pho Huc wrote on Sep 2^nd, 2015 at 4:03pm:

I don't know why you are using the 2001 date as your yardstick, I was talking 1996 to Present.
Since I cannot access data newer than three old i will use 1996-2012 data from ABS.

1996
Australian population 18.31 million . Number of guns 3.25 million
.17 guns per person.

2012
Australian population 22.72 million. Number of guns 3 million.

.13 guns per person.

Its really not that complicated.
The only reason I would have to do this for you would be because you were to lazy to crunch the numbers your self, or to incompetent to find the data.

Phillip Alpers says 2,165,170 guns in 2001 with 2,750,000 in 2012
www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/compareyears/10/number_of_registered_firearms

www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/compareyears/10/rate_of_registered_firearms_per_100_p...

Do we believe your uncited figures or that hoplophobe Philip Alpers?

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Pho Huc

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Re: Gun laws in Australia
Reply #2111 - Sep 2^nd, 2015 at 4:28pm

Baronvonrort wrote on Sep 2^nd, 2015 at 4:10pm:

Pho Huc wrote on Sep 2^nd, 2015 at 4:05pm:

easel wrote on Sep 2^nd, 2015 at 3:47pm:

If someone wants to kill an individual they can use a knife. Or petrol and a lighter. Or a baseball bat. Or a shovel.

But if someone wants to kill ten people its much easier with self loading firearms.
Controlling firearms does not stop murder. It does reduce mass murder though,

Our second worst mass shooting had 10 people killed with a single shot bolt action .22lr rifle.

The guy locked his whole family in a house and executed them one by one. He could have used a baseball bat, Its not directly comparable with shootings in an open environment.

I wont even shoot foxes with a ,22

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Pho Huc

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Re: Gun laws in Australia
Reply #2112 - Sep 2^nd, 2015 at 4:31pm

Baronvonrort wrote on Sep 2^nd, 2015 at 4:26pm:

Pho Huc wrote on Sep 2^nd, 2015 at 4:03pm:

I don't know why you are using the 2001 date as your yardstick, I was talking 1996 to Present.
Since I cannot access data newer than three old i will use 1996-2012 data from ABS.

1996
Australian population 18.31 million . Number of guns 3.25 million
.17 guns per person.

2012
Australian population 22.72 million. Number of guns 3 million.

.13 guns per person.

Its really not that complicated.
The only reason I would have to do this for you would be because you were to lazy to crunch the numbers your self, or to incompetent to find the data.

Phillip Alpers says 2,165,170 guns in 2001 with 2,750,000 in 2012
www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/compareyears/10/number_of_registered_firearms

www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/compareyears/10/rate_of_registered_firearms_per_100_p...

Do we believe your uncited figures or that hoplophobe Philip Alpers?

Again, why do you always talk 2001, not 1996?

All my data is from the ABS(you know, that government agency responsible for such things?)
If you want I will send you direct links to the ABS Info, but I really think I have done enough of your homework already.

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Baronvonrort

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Re: Gun laws in Australia
Reply #2113 - Sep 2^nd, 2015 at 4:32pm

Pho Huc wrote on Sep 2^nd, 2015 at 4:28pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Sep 2^nd, 2015 at 4:10pm:

Pho Huc wrote on Sep 2^nd, 2015 at 4:05pm:

easel wrote on Sep 2^nd, 2015 at 3:47pm:

If someone wants to kill an individual they can use a knife. Or petrol and a lighter. Or a baseball bat. Or a shovel.

But if someone wants to kill ten people its much easier with self loading firearms.
Controlling firearms does not stop murder. It does reduce mass murder though,

Our second worst mass shooting had 10 people killed with a single shot bolt action .22lr rifle.

I wont even shoot foxes with a ,22

My father has shot thousands of foxes with his .22, you must be a lousy shot.

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Baronvonrort

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Re: Gun laws in Australia
Reply #2114 - Sep 2^nd, 2015 at 4:33pm

Pho Huc wrote on Sep 2^nd, 2015 at 4:31pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Sep 2^nd, 2015 at 4:26pm:

Pho Huc wrote on Sep 2^nd, 2015 at 4:03pm:

I don't know why you are using the 2001 date as your yardstick, I was talking 1996 to Present.
Since I cannot access data newer than three old i will use 1996-2012 data from ABS.

1996
Australian population 18.31 million . Number of guns 3.25 million
.17 guns per person.

2012
Australian population 22.72 million. Number of guns 3 million.

.13 guns per person.

Its really not that complicated.
The only reason I would have to do this for you would be because you were to lazy to crunch the numbers your self, or to incompetent to find the data.

Phillip Alpers says 2,165,170 guns in 2001 with 2,750,000 in 2012
www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/compareyears/10/number_of_registered_firearms

www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/compareyears/10/rate_of_registered_firearms_per_100_p...

Do we believe your uncited figures or that hoplophobe Philip Alpers?

Again, why do you always talk 2001, not 1996?

All my data is from the ABS(you know, that government agency responsible for such things?)
If you want I will send you direct links to the ABS Info, but I really think I have done enough of your homework already.

Please cite you ABS links, gunpolicy.org show numbers and rate per 100k has been increasing.

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