Australian Politics Forum - Gun laws in Australia

Brian Ross

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Re: Gun laws in Australia
Reply #2085 - Aug 30^th, 2015 at 6:18pm

Baronvonrort wrote on Aug 30^th, 2015 at 5:58pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Aug 29^th, 2015 at 8:36pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Aug 29^th, 2015 at 11:03am:

Brian Ross wrote on Aug 28^th, 2015 at 8:49pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Aug 28^th, 2015 at 7:54pm:

Belgium outlawed the guns he had over a decade ago,so much for the gun laws in France or Belgium stopping him

Were they designed to stop him or to punish him if he was caught, Baron? Roll Eyes

We have hoplophobes like hot breath saying our gun laws prevent mass shootings because semi autos were banned,are you suggesting the laws were only put in place to punish and have nothing to do with prevention?

They prevent by forcing behaviour modification amongst the law abiding Baron. Many people drive cars on the roads in excess of the speed limits but once caught, change their behaviour and stop speeding.

So you are conceding our gun laws don't affect criminals they only affect people who obey laws

They also punish those who do not obey them, Baron. A fact you keep overlooking. Why? Is it inconvenient? Roll Eyes

Quote:

The most deadly mass shooting before Pt Arthur the offender used a single shot .22 bolt action,this is still the second most deadly shooting in Australia.

And how many used semi-automatic firearms, Baron? How many are dead as a consequence? Roll Eyes

Quote:

The commissioner of police has judged every firearm licence holder to be a fit and proper person who is no danger to public safety.

For the moment until they break the laws concerning firearms use, Baron. Roll Eyes

Quote:

If you can trust them with a bolt action single shot .22 which was used in our second most deadly shooting then surely they can be trusted with other guns.

Except they have demonstrated that they cannot. Roll Eyes

Quote:

There was a guy who drove his truck into a pub in Alice springs killing a few people,what law do we need to change that type of behaviour?

Nothing, as it was a most unusual event whereas gun violence was not before Port Arthur. Since Port Arthur and a tightening of the lax gun laws? Now it doesn't occur. Funny that... Roll Eyes

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It seems that I have upset a Moderator and are forbidden from using memes. So much for Freedom of Speech. Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

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Panther

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Re: Gun laws in Australia
Reply #2086 - Aug 30^th, 2015 at 6:34pm

Brian Ross wrote on Aug 30^th, 2015 at 5:41pm:

Panther wrote on Aug 30^th, 2015 at 11:29am:

Brian Ross wrote on Aug 29^th, 2015 at 8:36pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Aug 29^th, 2015 at 11:03am:

Brian Ross wrote on Aug 28^th, 2015 at 8:49pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Aug 28^th, 2015 at 7:54pm:

Belgium outlawed the guns he had over a decade ago,so much for the gun laws in France or Belgium stopping him

Were they designed to stop him or to punish him if he was caught, Baron? Roll Eyes

We have hoplophobes like hot breath saying our gun laws prevent mass shootings because semi autos were banned,are you suggesting the laws were only put in place to punish and have nothing to do with prevention?

They prevent by forcing behaviour modification amongst the law abiding ...... Many people drive cars on the roads in excess of the speed limits but once caught, change their behaviour and stop speeding. Gun laws only change the behaviour of honest people.......

That's basically true, they (the gun laws) prevent the wrong people from being able to do the right thing.

When it comes to Mass Murder including Gun Massacres, gun laws, even the most stringent, prevent absolutely nothing, for it's not the honest people, God fearing, Country loving, law abiding, mentally balanced people that commit these crimes, its the criminally insane, & the mentally deranged psychotics that commit those heinous acts.

Gun Laws do not prevent the criminally insane, & the mentally deranged, who are responsible for those acts, overreaching gun laws only prevent potential victims from defending themselves & their loved ones in dire times of need.

What they do is remove the means for the criminally inside and the mentally deranged to commit their crimes. What you want to do, is to make things easier for them to commit their crimes by making their tools more easily available to them. Roll Eyes

Remove the means? Surely you jest. Are you so naive that you believe that they can't access firearms simply because you disallow some ordinary people the ability to defend themselves? All those laws can do is convict those that disobey them after
they break the law. How that restrains the criminally insane from getting access to a firearm prior to committing the crime is beyond comprehension.

How do the gun laws "remove these means"?

My suggestions don't enable the criminally insane or mentally deranged to get firearms, on the contrary, they allow all good, law-abiding citizens who pass a strict background check access to the firearms they choose (their choice, not governments) in order to protect & defend their lives, the lives of their family, & protect their property.

Quote:

In the seven years from 2005 to 2012, gun murders across Australia almost doubled. The incidence of guns used in kidnappings trebled. The total number of crimes in which a firearm was used rose from 823 in 2005, to 1217 in 2012, an increase of 47 per cent. Source: News Limited

THERE is a gun battle going on in Australia. As bikie gang members and drug dealers gun each other down on a regular basis, sending fear through the community, authorities seem to be fighting a losing battle to keep firearms out of their hands.

Without scaremongering, here are the facts:

* There have been 39 people shot in Sydney this year, most related to an ongoing bikie war.

* Conservative estimates say there are more than a quarter-of-a-million illegal firearms in Australia.

* Gun ownership in Australia is back at pre-Port Arthur massacre levels.

* Carrying a gun is becoming more common and ingrained in outlaw culture.

* Gun amnesties barely put a dent in the number of weapons.

* Innocent people are being caught up in gun battles.

* There has been a steady increase in gun-related crimes over the past seven years.......

So much for your ineffective, overbearing (on the law abiding general public) restrictive laws.

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« Last Edit: Aug 30^th, 2015 at 7:03pm by Panther »

"When the People fear government there is Tyranny;
When government fears the People there is Freedom & Liberty!"

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Brian Ross Gold Member Offline Representative of me Posts: 43521	Re: Gun laws in Australia Reply #2087 - Aug 30^th, 2015 at 7:35pm You use News Limited as a source? Yea, gods, Panther, don't you have a shred of sense? You're using media reporting as a statistical source! No taking into account sensationalism, Tabloid reporting. Get back to us when you use a real source of statistics, such as the ABS or the Criminology fraternity.
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Panther

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Re: Gun laws in Australia
Reply #2088 - Aug 31^st, 2015 at 8:12am

Brian Ross wrote on Aug 30^th, 2015 at 7:35pm:

You use News Limited as a source? Yea, gods, Panther, don't you have a shred of sense? You're using media reporting as a statistical source! No taking into account sensationalism, Tabloid reporting. Get back to us when you use a real source of statistics, such as the ABS or the Criminology fraternity. Roll Eyes

Source: http://bit.ly/1JFzHlX Quote:

In the seven years from 2005 to 2012, gun murders across Australia almost doubled. The incidence of guns used in kidnappings trebled. The total number of crimes in which a firearm was used rose from 823 in 2005, to 1217 in 2012, an increase of 47 per cent.

Source: News Limited

THERE is a gun battle going on in Australia. As bikie gang members and drug dealers gun each other down on a regular basis, sending fear through the community, authorities seem to be fighting a losing battle to keep firearms out of their hands.

Without scaremongering, here are the facts:

* There have been 39 people shot in Sydney this year, most related to an ongoing bikie war.

* Conservative estimates say there are more than a quarter-of-a-million illegal firearms in Australia.

* Gun ownership in Australia is back at pre-Port Arthur massacre levels.

* Carrying a gun is becoming more common and ingrained in outlaw culture.

* Gun amnesties barely put a dent in the number of weapons.

* Innocent people are being caught up in gun battles.

* There has been a steady increase in gun-related crimes over the past seven years.......

Rather than providing bona fide facts, if they exist, to disprove News Limited's stats are incorrect, you prefer to summarily dismiss their stats offhand without any valid links to contradict/disprove the stats that you simply 'dislike' because they are merely inconvenient to your own agenda(s) & political talking points.

Those above stats are valid, & remain valid until you invalidate them with proof, mate, & merely resorting to the usual common tactics of the anti-firearm left to summarily dismiss them don't fly.

BTW.....feel free to use the links within the above article (from your type of sources, if you bothered to investigate yourself) that substantiate
the above stats & much much more. Seems they did their homework, now you need to do yours. Wink

With all due respect.....It's simply time to put up or shaddup, mate. Cool

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« Last Edit: Aug 31^st, 2015 at 8:42am by Panther »

"When the People fear government there is Tyranny;
When government fears the People there is Freedom & Liberty!"

'
Live FREE or DIE!
'

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|dev|null

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Re: Gun laws in Australia
Reply #2089 - Aug 31^st, 2015 at 12:51pm

Panther, going to your data source, I found this report:
Quote:

* Our rate of gun-related deaths is decreasing. Latest figures show guns account for just 1.06 deaths per 100,000 compared to 10.3 per 100,000 in the United States.

[http://www.news.com.au/national/is-australia-staring-down-the-barrel-of-a-gun-crisis/story-fncynjr2-1226690018325]

So, in the land of the free, they have ten times the number of gun deaths and you think letting people to have access to more firearms would solve that? Our firearms rate is DECREASING. You do know what the word means, I hope?

So, we have News Limited contradicting it's own headlines. Further, it focuses almost exclusively on Sydney, not the whole of Australia where a gun related death is less likely than hitting a 'roo in a car after dark on a country road! Time you and your alter-ege the Baron woke up to the fact that there are more Australians living outside of Sydney than inside it. Grin

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Panther Gold Member Offline My Heart beats True for the Red White & Blue... Posts: 11707 Gender:	Re: Gun laws in Australia Reply #2090 - Sep 1^st, 2015 at 3:51pm *Fact ... Switzerland Has The Lowest Crime Rate In The World* Still Can't Figure Out Why? Guns ... The Tools of Freedom!
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Pho Huc

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Re: Gun laws in Australia
Reply #2091 - Sep 2^nd, 2015 at 12:00pm

Panther wrote on Aug 31^st, 2015 at 8:12am:

Brian Ross wrote on Aug 30^th, 2015 at 7:35pm:

You use News Limited as a source? Yea, gods, Panther, don't you have a shred of sense? You're using media reporting as a statistical source! No taking into account sensationalism, Tabloid reporting. Get back to us when you use a real source of statistics, such as the ABS or the Criminology fraternity. Roll Eyes

Source: http://bit.ly/1JFzHlX Quote:

In the seven years from 2005 to 2012, gun murders across Australia almost doubled. The incidence of guns used in kidnappings trebled. The total number of crimes in which a firearm was used rose from 823 in 2005, to 1217 in 2012, an increase of 47 per cent.

Source: News Limited

THERE is a gun battle going on in Australia. As bikie gang members and drug dealers gun each other down on a regular basis, sending fear through the community, authorities seem to be fighting a losing battle to keep firearms out of their hands.

Without scaremongering, here are the facts:

* Conservative estimates say there are more than a quarter-of-a-million illegal firearms in Australia.

* Gun ownership in Australia is back at pre-Port Arthur massacre levels.

* Carrying a gun is becoming more common and ingrained in outlaw culture.

* Gun amnesties barely put a dent in the number of weapons.

* Innocent people are being caught up in gun battles.

* There has been a steady increase in gun-related crimes over the past seven years.......

Rather than providing bona fide facts, if they exist, to disprove News Limited's stats are incorrect, you prefer to summarily dismiss their stats offhand without any valid links to contradict/disprove the stats that you simply 'dislike' because they are merely inconvenient to your own agenda(s) & political talking points.

Those above stats are valid, & remain valid until you invalidate them with proof, mate, & merely resorting to the usual common tactics of the anti-firearm left to summarily dismiss them don't fly.

BTW.....feel free to use the links within the above article (from your type of sources, if you bothered to investigate yourself) that substantiate
the above stats & much much more. Seems they did their homework, now you need to do yours. Wink

With all due respect.....It's simply time to put up or shaddup, mate. Cool

Gun ownership is not at Port Arthur levels. Whoever wrote this needs to learn some basic maths. We now have the same total number of firearms in Australia as we did in 1996.

We also have 4.5 million extra people, so the % of ownership is much lower than 1996.

Its true that recent gun amnesties have not produced large hand ins of illegal firearms.
This is due to the fact that the majority of illegal firearms were handed in during the original buyback(over a million weapons).
Most people who have illegal guns now are criminals who hold onto them regardless of the law.

Fortunately these people are only responsible for a small percentage of gun deaths(17.8%) in Australia.
This is opposed to the other 83% who are killed by business partners, Husband, Children, etc etc.

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« Last Edit: Sep 2^nd, 2015 at 12:12pm by Pho Huc »

The law locks up the man who steals the goose from the common, but leaves the greater criminal loose who steals the common from the goose (convict saying)

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Pho Huc Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 985 Victoria Gender:	Re: Gun laws in Australia Reply #2092 - Sep 2^nd, 2015 at 12:02pm Panther wrote on Sep 1^st, 2015 at 3:51pm: *Fact ... Switzerland Has The Lowest Crime Rate In The World* Still Can't Figure Out Why? Guns ... The Tools of Freedom! [/center] By that logic the US would have the worlds lowest rates of murder and assault. Does it Panther? please stop being a tool of freedom Panther
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Baronvonrort

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Re: Gun laws in Australia
Reply #2093 - Sep 2^nd, 2015 at 12:26pm

Pho Huc wrote on Sep 2^nd, 2015 at 12:00pm:

Gun ownership is not at Port Arthur levels. Whoever wrote this needs to learn some basic maths. We now have the same total number of firearms in Australia as we did in 1996.

640,000 guns were surrendered during the compensated confiscation,by mid 2012 we had imported over 1 million guns to replace the 640,000 surrendered.

Gun ownership is above Pt Arthur levels, it's not like the green supporting hoplophobes ever stick to facts

The Shooters and Fishers party sent me a email saying we have just topped 1 million firearm licence holders in Australia.

Sydney.edu.au/news/84.html?newsstoryid=10824

We have our largest ever number of legal guns while simultaneously having our lowest ever gun crime.
In Australia more guns has resulted in less firearm crime,a fact the hoplophobes ignore.

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Baronvonrort Moderator Offline Australian Politics Posts: 19159 Gender:	Re: Gun laws in Australia Reply #2094 - Sep 2^nd, 2015 at 12:30pm Shooting is an Olympic sport, Aussies have won numerous gold medals in shooting. This gun owner would cause hoplophobes to crap their pants in fear. abc.net.au/local/photos/2015/01/08/4159440.htm
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greggerypeccary Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 142089 Gender:	Re: Gun laws in Australia Reply #2095 - Sep 2^nd, 2015 at 12:35pm Panther wrote on Sep 1^st, 2015 at 3:51pm: *Guns ... The Tools of Freedom! Tools* Fixed.
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Baronvonrort

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Re: Gun laws in Australia
Reply #2096 - Sep 2^nd, 2015 at 12:59pm

Quote:

Buyback has no effect on murder rate

Half a billion dollars spent buying back hundreds of thousands of guns after the Pt Arthur massacre had no effect on the homicide rate,says a study published in an influential British journal.

Dr Baker said many more lives would have been saved had the government spent the $500 million on mental health or other programs.
smh.com.au/news/national/buyback-has-no-effect-on-murder-rate/2006/10/23/1161455...

We are spending over $200 million a year on our firearms registry that solves or prevents zero zip zilch gun crimes.

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Pho Huc

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Re: Gun laws in Australia
Reply #2097 - Sep 2^nd, 2015 at 2:59pm

Baronvonrort wrote on Sep 2^nd, 2015 at 12:26pm:

Pho Huc wrote on Sep 2^nd, 2015 at 12:00pm:

Gun ownership is not at Port Arthur levels. Whoever wrote this needs to learn some basic maths. We now have the same total number of firearms in Australia as we did in 1996.

640,000 guns were surrendered during the compensated confiscation,by mid 2012 we had imported over 1 million guns to replace the 640,000 surrendered.

Gun ownership is above Pt Arthur levels, it's not like the green supporting hoplophobes ever stick to facts

The Shooters and Fishers party sent me a email saying we have just topped 1 million firearm licence holders in Australia.

Sydney.edu.au/news/84.html?newsstoryid=10824

We have our largest ever number of legal guns while simultaneously having our lowest ever gun crime.
In Australia more guns has resulted in less firearm crime,a fact the hoplophobes ignore.

Sigh.
To determine the ratio of guns to people you need the number of guns, and the number of people.
The number of guns has increased since 1996. Just no where near as much as the number of people.
Therefore the % of people owning or having access to a firearm has dropped in the last 20 years,

Its very basic maths.

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Pho Huc

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Re: Gun laws in Australia
Reply #2098 - Sep 2^nd, 2015 at 3:07pm

The point is, the "more guns = more violence" argument and the "gun ownership = decreased crime" argument both sidestep the complicating socioeconomic, cultural and psychological factors affecting violent crime. Economic disparities within countries, along with periods of economic downturn, drive up crime and homicides, and violent crimes occurs four times more often in countries with wide income gaps. While economic prosperity tends to decrease violent crime, crime itself can depress community development, perpetuating a cycle of poverty and violence [source: UNODC].

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Pho Huc

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Re: Gun laws in Australia
Reply #2099 - Sep 2^nd, 2015 at 3:10pm

The only clear message in this complex issue is that violent crime overall does not increase with the availability of guns, but gun-related violence does [sources: Kates and Mauser; Liptak; Luo].
In 1996, for example, you were far more likely to be shot to death in America than in any of 35 other wealthy nations, but you were also less likely to be the victim of murder, or of violent crime in general [sources: Killias, van Kesteren and Rindlisbacher].

Some opponents of gun control, including NRA Executive Vice President Wayne LaPierre, say, "The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun" [source: Lichtblau and Rich].
But at least one study has shown that defensive gun use succeeds only rarely, and that gun owners are 4.5 times more likely to be shot during an assault [source: Branas, et al.].

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The law locks up the man who steals the goose from the common, but leaves the greater criminal loose who steals the common from the goose (convict saying)

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