Australian Politics Forum - Gun laws in Australia

|dev|null

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Re: Gun laws in Australia
Reply #2070 - Aug 27^th, 2015 at 3:48pm

Panther wrote on Aug 27^th, 2015 at 3:39pm:

|dev|null wrote on Aug 27^th, 2015 at 3:32pm:

Panther wrote on Aug 27^th, 2015 at 3:28pm:

|dev|null wrote on Aug 27^th, 2015 at 3:21pm:

Panther wrote on Aug 27^th, 2015 at 1:52pm:

|dev|null wrote on Aug 27^th, 2015 at 12:40pm:

Panther, a combination of factors have made that zero a reality

1. Change in the types of guns generally available to every Tom, Dick and Harry. No semi-automatic guns means less chance for a gun nut to go crazy with them and kill "three or more" people at a time.

Queensland permits semi-automatics, & they are available elsewhere too.
https://www.qld.gov.au/law/crime-and-police/gun-licences/about-gun-licences/

2. Change in types of guns and licensing conditions. Firearms owners have been woken up. Their assumption that they have a right to own a firearm has been demonstrated to be false. They need to prove their need, they need to be a member of a firearms association and they must demonstrate their skill with and ability to safely store a firearm. They treasure their firearms and their licenses much more as a consequence.

So your gun owners are all completely sound of mind, now & forever? They will never let their cheese slide completely off their cracker, go grab their legal gun, load it, & take out their temporary insanity on a unaware pack of strangers? That isn't possible? Why? All because they treasure their firearms so so much, pass tests on gun usage & storage, & belong to gun clubs?

3. Heavier sentencing and more firearms checks, means that lax/recalcitrant gun owners have been penalised.

That keeps people sane does it? Why? Simply because of compliance penalties & storage checks?

4. Stricter licensing. Grin

ps. Good to see you're reading my posts.

So, those are your specific reasons why there haven't been any Gun
massacres since 1996?

By your reasoning then, you are saying that because of the laws on the books, there will never be another gun massacre in Australia?

Or, are you conceding that even though the gun laws have made it more difficult, if a once sane gun owner went berserk tomorrow, none of the present day firearms permitted to be owned anywhere in Australia could be used to perpetrate a massacre?

Somehow, I don't think your logic should make me feel all sorts of warm & fuzzy....

When, if you ever learn to use the Quote:

tags properly and not resort to crayons I might answer your points Panther. Cheesy

Which is a long winded way of saying that you haven't a foggiest clue on how to answer my valid points ..... ergo, an emphatic, yet empty, dodge, & here I thought you might have wanted to share some intelligence.... Wink

You've got my request Panther. You want an answer, put your points in correctly so they are readable. Grin

Unless you're colorblind, for which if true you are forgiven, otherwise you can read what's written, & if you had answers you would present them. Otherwise you'll continue with your ruse, & continue to dodge answering because you cant.

You've got my request Panther. You want an answer, put your points in correctly so they are readable. Grin

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Panther

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Re: Gun laws in Australia
Reply #2071 - Aug 27^th, 2015 at 5:53pm

|dev|null wrote on Aug 27^th, 2015 at 3:21pm:

Panther, a combination of factors have made that zero a reality

1. Change in the types of guns generally available to every Tom, Dick and Harry. No semi-automatic guns means less chance for a gun nut to go crazy with them and kill "three or more" people at a time.

Queensland permits semi-automatics, & they are available elsewhere too.

https://www.qld.gov.au/law/crime-and-police/gun-licences/about-gun-licences/

|dev|null wrote on Aug 27^th, 2015 at 12:40pm:

2. Change in types of guns and licensing conditions. Firearms owners have been woken up. Their assumption that they have a right to own a firearm has been demonstrated to be false. They need to prove their need, they need to be a member of a firearms association and they must demonstrate their skill with and ability to safely store a firearm. They treasure their firearms and their licenses much more as a consequence.

So your gun owners, because of Australian Gun Laws, are all completely sound of mind now & forever?

They will never let their cheese slide completely off their cracker, go grab their legal gun, load it, & take out their temporary insanity on an unaware pack of strangers?

That isn't possible?

Why?

All because, as you stated, they treasure their firearms so so much, pass tests on gun usage & storage, & belong to gun clubs???? Roll Eyes

|dev|null wrote on Aug 27^th, 2015 at 12:40pm:

3. Heavier sentencing and more firearms checks, means that lax/recalcitrant gun owners have been penalised.

This, you believe, stops mass firearm murders & keeps sane people sane does it?

Why?

Simply because of compliance penalties & 'gestapo like' unannounced storage checks????

So, those are your specific reasons why there haven't been any Gun massacres since 1996.

By your reasoning then, you are saying that because of the laws on the books you specifically noted & described, there could never be another gun massacre in Australia.

Or, are you trying to conclude that the gun laws have made it more difficult, & if a once sane gun owner went berserk tomorrow, none of the present day firearms permitted by law, to be owned anywhere in Australia, could ever be used to perpetrate a massacre?

I have to guess you probably never fired, or seen fired, a bolt action rifle like the Marlin XT-22R, or a Lever Action Henry, or one of many 6 shot handguns available. Roll Eyes

Somehow, I don't think your logic should make Australia feel all sorts of warm & fuzzy.... Roll Eyes

On the other hand, gun laws or none, after passing strict criminal & mental health background checks, the law abiding Australian people should have the right to protect their lives & property with the weapons of their choice, not the choice of their government's.

You've displayed no evidence (nor have any anti-gun posters on this bulletin board) that Australian gun laws actually work, except repeating ad nauseam that there haven't been any gun massacres since the 1996 Port Arthur killings, even though the fact is evident that there has always been the potential for any deranged nutter to secure a firearm from Australia's vast inventory, & perpetrate destruction with excessive casualty.

You've actually proven the case that it's not about guns, it's about absolute government control over a population it has no trust in.

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« Last Edit: Aug 28^th, 2015 at 10:09am by Panther »

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Sir Eoin O Fada

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Re: Gun laws in Australia
Reply #2072 - Aug 28^th, 2015 at 10:39am

The Lyndt Cafe hostage situation was a massacre in the making and the gun laws did nothing to stop it.

The terrorist on the train in France was not stopped by the French gun laws which are strict in regard to military weapons.
He was stopped by the brave actions of trained but unarmed men; men who would have now been facing the Court had the incident happened in Australia.
They would clearly have broken the law by using excessive force and by belting the poo [

edit, I didn't say poo

] out of him whilst they had the chance.
We look after our criminals.

To say that a massacre has not happened in Australia because of the gun laws is akin to burying one's head in the sand.

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« Last Edit: Aug 28^th, 2015 at 10:47am by Sir Eoin O Fada »

Self defence is a right.

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|dev|null

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Re: Gun laws in Australia
Reply #2073 - Aug 28^th, 2015 at 11:35am

Sir Eoin O Fada wrote on Aug 28^th, 2015 at 10:39am:

The Lyndt Cafe hostage situation was a massacre in the making and the gun laws did nothing to stop it.

They made it more difficult for Man Monis to get a gun. They made it harder for him to access a military-style semi-automatic weapon. If he had survived, he would have been punished for his misuse of a firearm.

You really do seem to have a one-track mind. Nothing seems to shift your thinking. How long have you been a zealot? Grin

Quote:

The terrorist on the train in France was not stopped by the French gun laws which are strict in regard to military weapons.

Perhaps you've misidentified your target? Afterall, he got his weapons in Belgium.

Quote:

He was stopped by the brave actions of trained but unarmed men; men who would have now been facing the Court had the incident happened in Australia.

Where they would have, in all likelihood been acquitted of any supposed crime they had committed. Much better and much easier to have the courts carry the can than to allow personal bias to get in the way.

Quote:

They would clearly have broken the law by using excessive force and by belting the poo [

edit, I didn't say poo

] out of him whilst they had the chance.

Doubtful. From my reading they apprehended him and applied the necessary level of force to stop him from hurting them, nothing more. Had they continued to beat him, they might have had a case to answer. They did not.

Quote:

We look after our criminals.

We treat them as citizens who have rights. You appear to believe that means they get some sort of preferential treatment. Why?

Quote:

To say that a massacre has not happened in Australia because of the gun laws is akin to burying one's head in the sand.

And I'd suggest you're the one with your head buried in the sand. The laws by and large work and have worked to prevent a massacre style crime from being perpetuated. Face facts. Grin

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|dev|null

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Re: Gun laws in Australia
Reply #2074 - Aug 28^th, 2015 at 12:05pm

Good to see you've come to your senses, Panther.

Panther wrote on Aug 27^th, 2015 at 5:53pm:

|dev|null wrote on Aug 27^th, 2015 at 3:21pm:

Panther, a combination of factors have made that zero a reality

1. Change in the types of guns generally available to every Tom, Dick and Harry. No semi-automatic guns means less chance for a gun nut to go crazy with them and kill "three or more" people at a time.

Queensland permits semi-automatics, & they are available elsewhere too.

https://www.qld.gov.au/law/crime-and-police/gun-licences/about-gun-licences/

They are only available to primary producers and must be stored safely and used appropriately. They are not generally available for every Tom, Dick or Harry to purchase and misuse.

Quote:

|dev|null wrote on Aug 27^th, 2015 at 12:40pm:

2. Change in types of guns and licensing conditions. Firearms owners have been woken up. Their assumption that they have a right to own a firearm has been demonstrated to be false. They need to prove their need, they need to be a member of a firearms association and they must demonstrate their skill with and ability to safely store a firearm. They treasure their firearms and their licenses much more as a consequence.

So your gun owners, because of Australian Gun Laws, are all completely sound of mind now & forever?

Yes and no. Generally I'd say they are less of a worry rather than no worry at all. Baron and yourself are two cases in point.

Quote:

They will never let their cheese slide completely off their cracker, go grab their legal gun, load it, & take out their temporary insanity on an unaware pack of strangers?

That isn't possible?

Why?

All because, as you stated, they treasure their firearms so so much, pass tests on gun usage & storage, & belong to gun clubs???? Roll Eyes

It decreases the chance considerably. Much better than the US where no proof is required for a purchase, there are no waiting periods and everybody has a supposed right to own a firearm and therefore can have their cheese slide of their cracker with frequency.

Quote:

|dev|null wrote on Aug 27^th, 2015 at 12:40pm:

3. Heavier sentencing and more firearms checks, means that lax/recalcitrant gun owners have been penalised.

This, you believe, stops mass firearm murders & keeps sane people sane does it?

Why?

Simply because of compliance penalties & 'gestapo like' unannounced storage checks????

Yep.

Quote:

So, those are your specific reasons why there haven't been any Gun massacres since 1996.

They are some of the reasons why we haven't had a firearms massacre. You appear to have failed to produce a reason why we haven't had a firearms massacre of the scale of Port Arthur since 1996.

Quote:

By your reasoning then, you are saying that because of the laws on the books you specifically noted & described, there could never be another gun massacre in Australia.

Or, are you trying to conclude that the gun laws have made it more difficult, & if a once sane gun owner went berserk tomorrow, none of the present day firearms permitted by law, to be owned anywhere in Australia, could ever be used to perpetrate a massacre?

The type of firearms make it much more difficult. I am sure there could be a determined, well trained firearms owner who decides to "let his cheese slide off his cracker" one day and takes it out on the rest of society. Will you be happy that day? Will you dance with joy? Will you hold a party? Grin

Quote:

I have to guess you probably never fired, or seen fired, a bolt action rifle like the Marlin XT-22R, or a Lever Action Henry, or one of many 6 shot handguns available. Roll Eyes

Correct.

Quote:

Somehow, I don't think your logic should make Australia feel all sorts of warm & fuzzy.... Roll Eyes

On the other hand, gun laws or none, after passing strict criminal & mental health background checks, the law abiding Australian people should have the right to protect their lives & property with the weapons of their choice, not the choice of their government's.

You've displayed no evidence (nor have any anti-gun posters on this bulletin board) that Australian gun laws actually work, except repeating ad nauseam that there haven't been any gun massacres since the 1996 Port Arthur killings, even though the fact is evident that there has always been the potential for any deranged nutter to secure a firearm from Australia's vast inventory, & perpetrate destruction with excessive casualty.

You've actually proven the case that it's not about guns, it's about absolute government control over a population it has no trust in.

In a word "bullshit". As always, you refuse to look at the evidence. Laws are designed to punish transgressors rather than prevent crimes amongst criminals from occurring. That has always been the case, no matter what you may believe. You break the law, you pay the penalty. So, how many gun massacres in Australia since 1996 again? Grin

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"Pens and books are the weapons that defeat terrorism." - Malala Yousefzai, 2013.

"we will never ever solve violence while we grasp for overly simplistic solutions."
Freediver, 2007.

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Baronvonrort

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Re: Gun laws in Australia
Reply #2075 - Aug 28^th, 2015 at 7:54pm

|dev|null wrote on Aug 28^th, 2015 at 11:35am:

Sir Eoin O Fada wrote on Aug 28^th, 2015 at 10:39am:

The Lyndt Cafe hostage situation was a massacre in the making and the gun laws did nothing to stop it.

They made it more difficult for Man Monis to get a gun. They made it harder for him to access a military-style semi-automatic weapon. If he had survived, he would have been punished for his misuse of a firearm.
It obviously wasn't that difficult for him to get a gun that had to be handed in 20 years ago,some people prefer pump action shotguns to semi autos, a pump action shotgun will not jam like a semi auto

Quote:

The terrorist on the train in France was not stopped by the French gun laws which are strict in regard to military weapons.

Perhaps you've misidentified your target? Afterall, he got his weapons in Belgium.
Belgium outlawed the guns he had over a decade ago,so much for the gun laws in France or Belgium stopping him

Quote:

He was stopped by the brave actions of trained but unarmed men; men who would have now been facing the Court had the incident happened in Australia.

Where they would have, in all likelihood been acquitted of any supposed crime they had committed. Much better and much easier to have the courts carry the can than to allow personal bias to get in the way.
The fact his gun failed to fire which caused it to jam probably helped,when semi autos have a fail to fire or fail to eject they jam and need to be cleared before the can fire,the Aurora Colorado shooter had a semi auto that jammed after a few rounds so he used another gun.
With old or cheap ammo semi autos can be very unreliable and jam frequently it doesn't matter if it's a rifle or pistol.

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Brian Ross Gold Member Offline Representative of me Posts: 43521	Re: Gun laws in Australia Reply #2076 - Aug 28^th, 2015 at 8:49pm Baronvonrort wrote on Aug 28^th, 2015 at 7:54pm: Belgium outlawed the guns he had over a decade ago,so much for the gun laws in France or Belgium stopping him Were they designed to stop him or to punish him if he was caught, Baron?
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Sir Eoin O Fada

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Re: Gun laws in Australia
Reply #2077 - Aug 29^th, 2015 at 8:10am

DevNul,

"....Had they continued to beat him, they might have had a case to answer. They did not."

They did and by their own admission in a live TV interview [and good on 'em!!], so in Australia they would have had a case to answer and, no doubt, the Greens would have pressed for prosecution as would the Council for Civil Liberties.

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Self defence is a right.

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Baronvonrort

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Re: Gun laws in Australia
Reply #2078 - Aug 29^th, 2015 at 11:03am

Brian Ross wrote on Aug 28^th, 2015 at 8:49pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Aug 28^th, 2015 at 7:54pm:

Belgium outlawed the guns he had over a decade ago,so much for the gun laws in France or Belgium stopping him

Were they designed to stop him or to punish him if he was caught, Baron? Roll Eyes

We have hoplophobes like hot breath saying our gun laws prevent mass shootings because semi autos were banned,are you suggesting the laws were only put in place to punish and have nothing to do with prevention?

Before Port Arthur our worst mass shooting out of 13 mass shootings was done with a single shot bolt action .22

A woman with a knife in Cairns killed more people than the-
Campsie murders with semi auto
Milperra massacre
Hoddle st massacre
Top end shootings in 87
Canley vale Huynh family murders
Wahroonga murders
Oenpelli shootings
Surry hills shootings
Strathfield massacre
Cangai siege
Hillcrest murders
Hunt family murders
A woman with a knife was able to match the murders from the Queen st massacre.

In Qld and NSW the worst mass murderers did not use a gun they lit a fire.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massacres_in_Australia

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Sir Eoin O Fada Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 2669 New England, NSW Gender:	Re: Gun laws in Australia Reply #2079 - Aug 29^th, 2015 at 11:19am Just to be pedantic and for the sake of getting things right, the Milperra incident was not a massacre as it was a shoot out between two armed groups. It was called a massacre because Milperra starts with an 'M' and 'Massacre' went well with it in the headlines.
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Brian Ross

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Re: Gun laws in Australia
Reply #2080 - Aug 29^th, 2015 at 8:36pm

Baronvonrort wrote on Aug 29^th, 2015 at 11:03am:

Brian Ross wrote on Aug 28^th, 2015 at 8:49pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Aug 28^th, 2015 at 7:54pm:

Belgium outlawed the guns he had over a decade ago,so much for the gun laws in France or Belgium stopping him

Were they designed to stop him or to punish him if he was caught, Baron? Roll Eyes

We have hoplophobes like hot breath saying our gun laws prevent mass shootings because semi autos were banned,are you suggesting the laws were only put in place to punish and have nothing to do with prevention?

They prevent by forcing behaviour modification amongst the law abiding Baron. Many people drive cars on the roads in excess of the speed limits but once caught, change their behaviour and stop speeding. Gun laws only change the behaviour of honest people, Baron. They punish the dishonest people. Are you really this naive or just being deliberately obtuse? Roll Eyes

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Sir Eoin O Fada Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 2669 New England, NSW Gender:	Re: Gun laws in Australia Reply #2081 - Aug 30^th, 2015 at 10:10am This bloke in South Aust. is lucky that he didn't have two toy guns. http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/south-australia/district-court-judge-rules-ch... otherwise the police might have charged him with being an illegal arms dealer.
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Panther

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Re: Gun laws in Australia
Reply #2082 - Aug 30^th, 2015 at 11:29am

Brian Ross wrote on Aug 29^th, 2015 at 8:36pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Aug 29^th, 2015 at 11:03am:

Brian Ross wrote on Aug 28^th, 2015 at 8:49pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Aug 28^th, 2015 at 7:54pm:

Belgium outlawed the guns he had over a decade ago,so much for the gun laws in France or Belgium stopping him

Were they designed to stop him or to punish him if he was caught, Baron? Roll Eyes

We have hoplophobes like hot breath saying our gun laws prevent mass shootings because semi autos were banned,are you suggesting the laws were only put in place to punish and have nothing to do with prevention?

They prevent by forcing behaviour modification amongst the law abiding ...... Many people drive cars on the roads in excess of the speed limits but once caught, change their behaviour and stop speeding. Gun laws only change the behaviour of honest people.......

That's basically true, they (the gun laws) prevent the wrong people from being able to do the right thing.

When it comes to Mass Murder including Gun Massacres, gun laws, even the most stringent, prevent absolutely nothing, for it's not the honest people, God fearing, Country loving, law abiding, mentally balanced people that commit these crimes, its the criminally insane, & the mentally deranged psychotics that commit those heinous acts.

Gun Laws do not prevent the criminally insane, & the mentally deranged, who are responsible for those acts, overreaching gun laws only prevent potential victims from defending themselves & their loved ones in dire times of need.

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« Last Edit: Aug 30^th, 2015 at 12:08pm by Panther »

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Brian Ross

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Re: Gun laws in Australia
Reply #2083 - Aug 30^th, 2015 at 5:41pm

Panther wrote on Aug 30^th, 2015 at 11:29am:

Brian Ross wrote on Aug 29^th, 2015 at 8:36pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Aug 29^th, 2015 at 11:03am:

Brian Ross wrote on Aug 28^th, 2015 at 8:49pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Aug 28^th, 2015 at 7:54pm:

Belgium outlawed the guns he had over a decade ago,so much for the gun laws in France or Belgium stopping him

Were they designed to stop him or to punish him if he was caught, Baron? Roll Eyes

We have hoplophobes like hot breath saying our gun laws prevent mass shootings because semi autos were banned,are you suggesting the laws were only put in place to punish and have nothing to do with prevention?

They prevent by forcing behaviour modification amongst the law abiding ...... Many people drive cars on the roads in excess of the speed limits but once caught, change their behaviour and stop speeding. Gun laws only change the behaviour of honest people.......

That's basically true, they (the gun laws) prevent the wrong people from being able to do the right thing.

When it comes to Mass Murder including Gun Massacres, gun laws, even the most stringent, prevent absolutely nothing, for it's not the honest people, God fearing, Country loving, law abiding, mentally balanced people that commit these crimes, its the criminally insane, & the mentally deranged psychotics that commit those heinous acts.

Gun Laws do not prevent the criminally insane, & the mentally deranged, who are responsible for those acts, overreaching gun laws only prevent potential victims from defending themselves & their loved ones in dire times of need.

What they do is remove the means for the criminally inside and the mentally deranged to commit their crimes. What you want to do, is to make things easier for them to commit their crimes by making their tools more easily available to them. Roll Eyes

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Baronvonrort

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Re: Gun laws in Australia
Reply #2084 - Aug 30^th, 2015 at 5:58pm

Brian Ross wrote on Aug 29^th, 2015 at 8:36pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Aug 29^th, 2015 at 11:03am:

Brian Ross wrote on Aug 28^th, 2015 at 8:49pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Aug 28^th, 2015 at 7:54pm:

Belgium outlawed the guns he had over a decade ago,so much for the gun laws in France or Belgium stopping him

Were they designed to stop him or to punish him if he was caught, Baron? Roll Eyes

We have hoplophobes like hot breath saying our gun laws prevent mass shootings because semi autos were banned,are you suggesting the laws were only put in place to punish and have nothing to do with prevention?

They prevent by forcing behaviour modification amongst the law abiding Baron. Many people drive cars on the roads in excess of the speed limits but once caught, change their behaviour and stop speeding.

So you are conceding our gun laws don't affect criminals they only affect people who obey laws

The most deadly mass shooting before Pt Arthur the offender used a single shot .22 bolt action,this is still the second most deadly shooting in Australia.

The commissioner of police has judged every firearm licence holder to be a fit and proper person who is no danger to public safety.
If you can trust them with a bolt action single shot .22 which was used in our second most deadly shooting then surely they can be trusted with other guns.

There was a guy who drove his truck into a pub in Alice springs killing a few people,what law do we need to change that type of behaviour?

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