Australian Politics Forum - Gun laws in Australia

Panther

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Re: Gun laws in Australia
Reply #1935 - Aug 7^th, 2015 at 5:06pm

Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Aug 7^th, 2015 at 2:54pm:

Panther wrote on Aug 7^th, 2015 at 2:49pm:

Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Aug 7^th, 2015 at 2:37pm:

Panther wrote on Aug 7^th, 2015 at 2:36pm:

Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Aug 7^th, 2015 at 2:30pm:

No what I am suggesting is that if

Gun control defined: The theory that people who are willing to ignore laws against rape, torture, kidnapping, theft and murder will obey a law which prohibits them from owning a firearm.

were really true, the gun control we have here, would mean that murder rates would be higher than countries with poor gun control.

Again, your awkward argument is just a smokescreenm away from the quote I posted.....address the quote, not your smokescreen.

I did, its obviously false.

I agree, as the quote suggests, the reasoning in support of 'Gun Control' is false.....

The argument that the gun-grabbing anti-gunners reason with about 'Gun Control' is patently false, criminals will never become honorable, law-abiding citizens, & the only people that these 'Gun Control' laws actually affect are the law-abiding citizen gun owners of Australia, while these laws do absolutely nothing about criminals & crime.

I'd take the opposite view from that and say whilst the laws don't seem to make a difference, that if you look at the US where the murder rates are higher, obviously arming law-abiding citizens doesn't seem to do much either.

Quit dodging, bobbing & weaving.....Address the issue outlined in this quote directly.

Whether Australia has more or less crime, or does the USA have more or less crime, means nothing at all whatsoever regarding the quote that seems to ruffle your feathers so.

Again, respond to the quote that you first questioned me on, instead of trying to desperately do an end-around, avoid addressing the words directly, & attempt to invalidate the fact that those that pass these so called "Gun Control" laws, don't address the actual criminals or address crime itself, these laws only address how LAW-ABIDING GUN OWNERS must act, what they are allowed to do, & how they must act. These people aren't the ones committing crimes, they aren't criminals, but government presupposes that they are.

Quote:
Gun control defined: The theory that people who are willing to ignore laws against rape, torture, kidnapping, theft and murder will obey a law which prohibits them from owning a firearm.

Will criminals, who don't obey the laws on the books about most everything, just because a 'Gun Control' Law decides to prohibit them from gun ownership, will they suddenly, because of that law, become law-abiding citizens, give up crime & the guns they have, & promise to never take either crime or their guns in the future?

Simply, agree or disagree......criminals will become upstanding law-abiding citizens because of 'Gun Control' Law(s).

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« Last Edit: Aug 7^th, 2015 at 5:13pm by Panther »

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Prime Minister for Canyons Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 26906 Canberra Gender:	Re: Gun laws in Australia Reply #1936 - Aug 7^th, 2015 at 5:25pm Fallacious logic.
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Panther Gold Member Offline My Heart beats True for the Red White & Blue... Posts: 11710 Gender:	Re: Gun laws in Australia Reply #1937 - Aug 7^th, 2015 at 5:33pm Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Aug 7^th, 2015 at 5:25pm: Fallacious logic. Obvious sidestepping dodge/evasion. You've shown your true colors for all to see......congratulations
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Prime Minister for Canyons Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 26906 Canberra Gender:	Re: Gun laws in Australia Reply #1938 - Aug 7^th, 2015 at 5:36pm Panther wrote on Aug 7^th, 2015 at 5:33pm: Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Aug 7^th, 2015 at 5:25pm: Fallacious logic. Obvious sidestepping dodge/evasion. You've shown your true colors for all to see......congratulations Not my issue if you cant see the logical point you're trying to make is irrelevant.
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Panther

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Re: Gun laws in Australia
Reply #1939 - Aug 7^th, 2015 at 7:02pm

Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Aug 7^th, 2015 at 5:36pm:

Panther wrote on Aug 7^th, 2015 at 5:33pm:

Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Aug 7^th, 2015 at 5:25pm:

Fallacious logic.

Obvious sidestepping dodge/evasion. You've shown your true colors for all to see......congratulations

Not my issue if you cant see the logical point you're trying to make is irrelevant.

Ditto, & then some ..... I'm just too good for ya, admit it!

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"When the People fear government there is Tyranny;
When government fears the People there is Freedom & Liberty!"

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Brian Ross Gold Member Offline Representative of me Posts: 43542	Re: Gun laws in Australia Reply #1940 - Aug 7^th, 2015 at 7:14pm John 11:35
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Pho Huc

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Re: Gun laws in Australia
Reply #1941 - Aug 7^th, 2015 at 7:23pm

Panther wrote on Aug 7^th, 2015 at 5:06pm:

Simply, agree or disagree......criminals will become upstanding law-abiding citizens because of 'Gun Control' Law(s).[/i][/font][/size]

Gun control doesn't increase the number of anti social people, or change their behavior.

What is does do is reduce the supply of firearms to criminals.

In fact you could expect an increase in crime statistics for while after gun control is implemented due to new crimes like weapons possession and sale being measured for the first time.

You would also see a drop in gun related homicide, which would be partially offset by an increase in other forms of homicide.

What you would clearly see would be a drop in accidental death rate of firearms.

There are as many people murdered in the US each year as are killed by Islamic extremists in the whole world each year. 70% of people Murdered in America die as a result of a firearm injury.

If you state that America's relaxed gun laws are not related to this you better have some good data to back up your assessment.

In Australia we have quite a high rate of gun ownership but only 16% of our homicides involve a firearm. This is because its very hard to get hand guns.

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gizmo_2655

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Re: Gun laws in Australia
Reply #1942 - Aug 7^th, 2015 at 8:45pm

Pho Huc wrote on Aug 7^th, 2015 at 7:23pm:

Panther wrote on Aug 7^th, 2015 at 5:06pm:

Simply, agree or disagree......criminals will become upstanding law-abiding citizens because of 'Gun Control' Law(s).[/i][/font][/size]

Gun control doesn't increase the number of anti social people, or change their behavior.

What is does do is reduce the supply of firearms to criminals.

In fact you could expect an increase in crime statistics for while after gun control is implemented due to new crimes like weapons possession and sale being measured for the first time.

You would also see a drop in gun related homicide, which would be partially offset by an increase in other forms of homicide.

What you would clearly see would be a drop in accidental death rate of firearms.

There are as many people murdered in the US each year as are killed by Islamic extremists in the whole world each year. 70% of people Murdered in America die as a result of a firearm injury.

If you state that America's relaxed gun laws are not related to this you better have some good data to back up your assessment.

In Australia we have quite a high rate of gun ownership but only 16% of our homicides involve a firearm. This is because its very hard to get hand guns.

Because criminals are so well know for obey laws, right??

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It's similar to a strawman fallacy"
Bobbythebat

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Pho Huc Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 985 Victoria Gender:	Re: Gun laws in Australia Reply #1943 - Aug 8^th, 2015 at 6:18pm Guns don't stay in circulation forever. Its not the criminals making or selling the guns. Bringing in gun control reduces the supply of firearms to criminals. They are still criminals. But less of them have guns.
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longweekend58

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Re: Gun laws in Australia
Reply #1944 - Aug 8^th, 2015 at 6:31pm

gizmo_2655 wrote on Aug 7^th, 2015 at 8:45pm:

Pho Huc wrote on Aug 7^th, 2015 at 7:23pm:

Panther wrote on Aug 7^th, 2015 at 5:06pm:

Simply, agree or disagree......criminals will become upstanding law-abiding citizens because of 'Gun Control' Law(s).[/i][/font][/size]

Gun control doesn't increase the number of anti social people, or change their behavior.

What is does do is reduce the supply of firearms to criminals.

In fact you could expect an increase in crime statistics for while after gun control is implemented due to new crimes like weapons possession and sale being measured for the first time.

You would also see a drop in gun related homicide, which would be partially offset by an increase in other forms of homicide.

What you would clearly see would be a drop in accidental death rate of firearms.

There are as many people murdered in the US each year as are killed by Islamic extremists in the whole world each year. 70% of people Murdered in America die as a result of a firearm injury.

If you state that America's relaxed gun laws are not related to this you better have some good data to back up your assessment.

In Australia we have quite a high rate of gun ownership but only 16% of our homicides involve a firearm. This is because its very hard to get hand guns.

Because criminals are so well know for obey laws, right??

maybe not, but there is no point in helping them along by making guns easy to access. Very few criminals is Oz use guns.

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gizmo_2655 Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 16010 South West NSW Gender:	Re: Gun laws in Australia Reply #1945 - Aug 8^th, 2015 at 9:40pm Pho Huc wrote on Aug 8^th, 2015 at 6:18pm: Guns don't stay in circulation forever. Its not the criminals making or selling the guns. Bringing in gun control reduces the supply of firearms to criminals. They are still criminals. But less of them have guns. Except for the ones that are imported (and sold ) by criminals.
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Pho Huc Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 985 Victoria Gender:	Re: Gun laws in Australia Reply #1946 - Aug 8^th, 2015 at 10:02pm Its not that easy to make or import guns in significant amounts. Most criminals are not international arm traders or machinists,
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gizmo_2655

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Re: Gun laws in Australia
Reply #1947 - Aug 9^th, 2015 at 12:32am

Pho Huc wrote on Aug 8^th, 2015 at 10:02pm:

Its not that easy to make or import guns in significant amounts. Most criminals are not international arm traders or machinists,

It's not even require to import in significant amounts. Even in lots of 1-5 handguns at a time is all that is require.

Remember the estimated 200+ pistols imported by the people at the Sylvania Waters post office??

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"I just get sick of people who place a label on someone else with their own definition.

It's similar to a strawman fallacy"
Bobbythebat

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Tap

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Re: Gun laws in Australia
Reply #1948 - Aug 9^th, 2015 at 10:41am

gizmo_2655 wrote on Aug 9^th, 2015 at 12:32am:

Pho Huc wrote on Aug 8^th, 2015 at 10:02pm:

Its not that easy to make or import guns in significant amounts. Most criminals are not international arm traders or machinists,

It's not even require to import in significant amounts. Even in lots of 1-5 handguns at a time is all that is require.

Remember the estimated 200+ pistols imported by the people at the Sylvania Waters post office??

Awww come on!

If they are willing to admit 200+ then its probably 10X that, or more!
The government always tries to downplay its failure to enforce its laws.

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« Last Edit: Aug 9^th, 2015 at 10:49am by Tap »

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gizmo_2655

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Re: Gun laws in Australia
Reply #1949 - Aug 9^th, 2015 at 10:43am

Tap wrote on Aug 9^th, 2015 at 10:41am:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Aug 9^th, 2015 at 12:32am:

Pho Huc wrote on Aug 8^th, 2015 at 10:02pm:

Its not that easy to make or import guns in significant amounts. Most criminals are not international arm traders or machinists,

It's not even require to import in significant amounts. Even in lots of 1-5 handguns at a time is all that is require.

Remember the estimated 200+ pistols imported by the people at the Sylvania Waters post office??

Awww come on!

If they are willing to admit 200+ then its probably 10X that, or more!
The government always tries to downplay its failure to enforce its laws.

Exactly my point, Wink

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"I just get sick of people who place a label on someone else with their own definition.

It's similar to a strawman fallacy"
Bobbythebat

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