Australian Politics Forum - Gun laws in Australia

Prime Minister for Canyons

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Re: Gun laws in Australia
Reply #1830 - Jul 8^th, 2015 at 2:41pm

Panther wrote on Jul 8^th, 2015 at 2:30pm:

Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Jul 8^th, 2015 at 1:54pm:

Panther wrote on Jul 8^th, 2015 at 1:38pm:

The Government & the Police have proven time & time again that they aren't up to the task.

Really? Actual crime rates are fairly low, fear of crime is increasing.

Really, check again.....talk to people, & don't rely on those rigged self-serving reports by the police & the government, the lyin' bastards they are. Talk to the people, especially the merchants.

The fear of crime is increasing & rightfully so.

Violent crime, many crimes for that matter, aren't always reported by the victims or the the government/police, but people talk to each other. They know the facts more than the cops do.

The people say what good does it do, the coppers get them & the so called 'justice system' lets them out the next day. And when they get out if they think you ratted on them they'll be after your @ss, so best to shut up.

If you say crime is fairly low, don't credit the police. They are never around when you need them, unless it's to fine someone for parking, or breathalyze someone.

Where do you live OB, Cama-freekin-lott?

No reality, where anecdotes are not evidence.

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In a time of universal deceit — telling the truth is a revolutionary act.

No evidence whatsoever it can be attributed to George Orwell or Eric Arthur Blair (in fact the same guy)

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Panther

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Re: Gun laws in Australia
Reply #1831 - Jul 8^th, 2015 at 3:03pm

Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Jul 8^th, 2015 at 2:41pm:

Panther wrote on Jul 8^th, 2015 at 2:30pm:

Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Jul 8^th, 2015 at 1:54pm:

Panther wrote on Jul 8^th, 2015 at 1:38pm:

The Government & the Police have proven time & time again that they aren't up to the task.

Really? Actual crime rates are fairly low, fear of crime is increasing.

Really, check again.....talk to people, & don't rely on those rigged self-serving reports by the police & the government, the lyin' bastards they are. Talk to the people, especially the merchants.

The fear of crime is increasing & rightfully so.

Violent crime, many crimes for that matter, aren't always reported by the victims or the the government/police, but people talk to each other. They know the facts more than the cops do.

The people say what good does it do, the coppers get them & the so called 'justice system' lets them out the next day. And when they get out if they think you ratted on them they'll be after your @ss, so best to shut up.

If you say crime is fairly low, don't credit the police. They are never around when you need them, unless it's to fine someone for parking, or breathalyze someone.

Where do you live OB, Cama-freekin-lott?

No reality, where anecdotes are not evidence.

And where evidence that doesn't support your claims is ignored, or conveniently swept under the rug by a Law Enforcement System (Gestapo) that doesn't want to look bad, especially when it's more guns they want out of the public hands.

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When government fears the People there is Freedom & Liberty!"

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Prime Minister for Canyons

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Re: Gun laws in Australia
Reply #1832 - Jul 8^th, 2015 at 3:03pm

Panther wrote on Jul 8^th, 2015 at 3:03pm:

Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Jul 8^th, 2015 at 2:41pm:

Panther wrote on Jul 8^th, 2015 at 2:30pm:

Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Jul 8^th, 2015 at 1:54pm:

Panther wrote on Jul 8^th, 2015 at 1:38pm:

The Government & the Police have proven time & time again that they aren't up to the task.

Really? Actual crime rates are fairly low, fear of crime is increasing.

Really, check again.....talk to people, & don't rely on those rigged self-serving reports by the police & the government, the lyin' bastards they are. Talk to the people, especially the merchants.

The fear of crime is increasing & rightfully so.

Violent crime, many crimes for that matter, aren't always reported by the victims or the the government/police, but people talk to each other. They know the facts more than the cops do.

The people say what good does it do, the coppers get them & the so called 'justice system' lets them out the next day. And when they get out if they think you ratted on them they'll be after your @ss, so best to shut up.

If you say crime is fairly low, don't credit the police. They are never around when you need them, unless it's to fine someone for parking, or breathalyze someone.

Where do you live OB, Cama-freekin-lott?

No reality, where anecdotes are not evidence.

And where evidence that doesn't support your claims is ignored, or conveniently swept under the rug by a Law Enforcement System that doesn't want to look bad, especially when it's more guns they want out of the public hands.

Nice conspiracy theory.

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In a time of universal deceit — telling the truth is a revolutionary act.

No evidence whatsoever it can be attributed to George Orwell or Eric Arthur Blair (in fact the same guy)

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Panther

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Re: Gun laws in Australia
Reply #1833 - Jul 8^th, 2015 at 3:10pm

Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Jul 8^th, 2015 at 3:03pm:

Panther wrote on Jul 8^th, 2015 at 3:03pm:

Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Jul 8^th, 2015 at 2:41pm:

Panther wrote on Jul 8^th, 2015 at 2:30pm:

Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Jul 8^th, 2015 at 1:54pm:

Panther wrote on Jul 8^th, 2015 at 1:38pm:

The Government & the Police have proven time & time again that they aren't up to the task.

Really? Actual crime rates are fairly low, fear of crime is increasing.

Really, check again.....talk to people, & don't rely on those rigged self-serving reports by the police & the government, the lyin' bastards they are. Talk to the people, especially the merchants.

The fear of crime is increasing & rightfully so.

Violent crime, many crimes for that matter, aren't always reported by the victims or the the government/police, but people talk to each other. They know the facts more than the cops do.

The people say what good does it do, the coppers get them & the so called 'justice system' lets them out the next day. And when they get out if they think you ratted on them they'll be after your @ss, so best to shut up.

If you say crime is fairly low, don't credit the police. They are never around when you need them, unless it's to fine someone for parking, or breathalyze someone.

Where do you live OB, Cama-freekin-lott?

No reality, where anecdotes are not evidence.

And where evidence that doesn't support your claims is ignored, or conveniently swept under the rug by a Law Enforcement System that doesn't want to look bad, especially when it's more guns they want out of the public hands.

Nice conspiracy theory.

Is that a complement coming from the resident ideologist? Grin

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"When the People fear government there is Tyranny;
When government fears the People there is Freedom & Liberty!"

'
Live FREE or DIE!
'

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Prime Minister for Canyons

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Re: Gun laws in Australia
Reply #1834 - Jul 8^th, 2015 at 3:18pm

Panther wrote on Jul 8^th, 2015 at 3:10pm:

Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Jul 8^th, 2015 at 3:03pm:

Panther wrote on Jul 8^th, 2015 at 3:03pm:

Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Jul 8^th, 2015 at 2:41pm:

Panther wrote on Jul 8^th, 2015 at 2:30pm:

Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Jul 8^th, 2015 at 1:54pm:

Panther wrote on Jul 8^th, 2015 at 1:38pm:

The Government & the Police have proven time & time again that they aren't up to the task.

Really? Actual crime rates are fairly low, fear of crime is increasing.

Really, check again.....talk to people, & don't rely on those rigged self-serving reports by the police & the government, the lyin' bastards they are. Talk to the people, especially the merchants.

The fear of crime is increasing & rightfully so.

Violent crime, many crimes for that matter, aren't always reported by the victims or the the government/police, but people talk to each other. They know the facts more than the cops do.

The people say what good does it do, the coppers get them & the so called 'justice system' lets them out the next day. And when they get out if they think you ratted on them they'll be after your @ss, so best to shut up.

If you say crime is fairly low, don't credit the police. They are never around when you need them, unless it's to fine someone for parking, or breathalyze someone.

Where do you live OB, Cama-freekin-lott?

No reality, where anecdotes are not evidence.

And where evidence that doesn't support your claims is ignored, or conveniently swept under the rug by a Law Enforcement System that doesn't want to look bad, especially when it's more guns they want out of the public hands.

Nice conspiracy theory.

Is that a complement coming from the resident ideologist? Grin

You mean immunological complement or the linguistic complement.

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In a time of universal deceit — telling the truth is a revolutionary act.

No evidence whatsoever it can be attributed to George Orwell or Eric Arthur Blair (in fact the same guy)

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Panther Gold Member Offline My Heart beats True for the Red White & Blue... Posts: 11723 Gender:	Re: Gun laws in Australia Reply #1835 - Jul 8^th, 2015 at 3:29pm Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Jul 8^th, 2015 at 3:18pm: Panther wrote on Jul 8^th, 2015 at 3:10pm: Is that a complement coming from the resident ideologist? You mean immunological complement or the linguistic complement. Sharp as a tack there OB.....I knew you'd catch that, but I jus had ta try buddy!
Back to top	"When the People fear government there is Tyranny; When government fears the People there is Freedom & Liberty!" ' Live FREE or DIE! ' IP Logged

Prime Minister for Canyons

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Re: Gun laws in Australia
Reply #1836 - Jul 8^th, 2015 at 3:35pm

Panther wrote on Jul 8^th, 2015 at 3:29pm:

Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Jul 8^th, 2015 at 3:18pm:

Panther wrote on Jul 8^th, 2015 at 3:10pm:

Is that a complement coming from the resident ideologist? Grin

You mean immunological complement or the linguistic complement.

Sharp as a tack there OB.....I knew you'd catch that, but I jus had ta try buddy! Grin

Well bother? Just spell the word correctly.

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In a time of universal deceit — telling the truth is a revolutionary act.

No evidence whatsoever it can be attributed to George Orwell or Eric Arthur Blair (in fact the same guy)

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Panther

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Re: Gun laws in Australia
Reply #1837 - Jul 8^th, 2015 at 3:59pm

Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Jul 8^th, 2015 at 3:35pm:

Panther wrote on Jul 8^th, 2015 at 3:29pm:

Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Jul 8^th, 2015 at 3:18pm:

Panther wrote on Jul 8^th, 2015 at 3:10pm:

Is that a complement coming from the resident ideologist? Grin

You mean immunological complement or the linguistic complement.

Sharp as a tack there OB.....I knew you'd catch that, but I jus had ta try buddy! Grin

Well bother? Just spell the word correctly.

Yassah Massah Bus, Yassah!!!

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"When the People fear government there is Tyranny;
When government fears the People there is Freedom & Liberty!"

'
Live FREE or DIE!
'

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Prime Minister for Canyons

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Re: Gun laws in Australia
Reply #1838 - Jul 8^th, 2015 at 4:12pm

Panther wrote on Jul 8^th, 2015 at 3:59pm:

Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Jul 8^th, 2015 at 3:35pm:

Panther wrote on Jul 8^th, 2015 at 3:29pm:

Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Jul 8^th, 2015 at 3:18pm:

Panther wrote on Jul 8^th, 2015 at 3:10pm:

Is that a complement coming from the resident ideologist? Grin

You mean immunological complement or the linguistic complement.

Sharp as a tack there OB.....I knew you'd catch that, but I jus had ta try buddy! Grin

Well bother? Just spell the word correctly.

Yassah Massah Bus, Yassah!!! http://i.imgur.com/iht1glK.gif

Good to see acknowledgement of superiors.

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In a time of universal deceit — telling the truth is a revolutionary act.

No evidence whatsoever it can be attributed to George Orwell or Eric Arthur Blair (in fact the same guy)

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MumboJumbo

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Re: Gun laws in Australia
Reply #1839 - Jul 8^th, 2015 at 6:12pm

Baronvonrort wrote on Jul 7^th, 2015 at 6:02pm:

The police website has the actual legislation link, click on weapons prohibition act 1998 , it's number 7 in the contents-offence of unauthorised possession or use of prohibited weapon.

www.police.nsw.gov.au/services/firearms/permits/prohibited_weapon_permits

Ah, now we're getting somewhere, Baron. Your reasoning is logical, but unfortunately you're taking the WPA in a vacuum. s7 of the WPA says:

Quote:

WEAPONS PROHIBITION ACT 1998 - SECT 7
Offence of unauthorised possession or use of prohibited weapon
7 Offence of unauthorised possession or use of prohibited weapon

(1) A person must not possess or use a prohibited weapon unless the person is authorised to do so by a permit.

      Maximum penalty: imprisonment for 14 years.

(2) Without limiting the operation of subsection (1), a person who is the holder of a permit to possess or use a prohibited weapon is guilty of an offence under this section if the person:

      (a) possesses or uses the prohibited weapon for any purpose otherwise than in connection with the purpose established by the person as being the genuine reason for possessing or using the weapon, or

      (b) contravenes any condition of the permit.

So, on the face of it, self defence falls within s7(a), as you cannot get a permit for self-defence (as you've told the forum many a time). However, there is another statute you've failed to consider. That's the Crimes Act 1900 (NSW).

Quote:

CRIMES ACT 1900 - SECT 418
Self-defence-when available
418 Self-defence-when available

(1) A person is not criminally responsible for an offence if the person carries out the conduct constituting the offence in self-defence.

(2) A person carries out conduct in self-defence if and only if the person believes the conduct is necessary:

      (a) to defend himself or herself or another person, or
...
      (c) to protect property from unlawful taking, destruction, damage or interference, or

      (d) to prevent criminal trespass to any land or premises or to remove a person committing any such criminal trespass,

and the conduct is a reasonable response in the circumstances as he or she perceives them.

link

Now, you might say -- aha, these are different statutes; therefore the WPA impliedly repeals the CA to the extent of any inconsistency. However, that would be a mistake. s423 of the CA says that it applies to all "offences" committed post 1998. (There are a few other sections that modify the defence, but it's definitely there).

So, I hope it is now clear that:

1. You cannot own a firearm *for* the purpose of self-defence, but
2. If you happen to have a firearm, you're allowed to use it (or anything else) to defend yourself.

Feel free to ask if you have any further questions -- maybe make a new thread to get away from the thread vandals? Or PM me.

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See Profile For Update wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2015 at 2:58pm:

Why the bugger did I get stuck on a planet chalked full of imbeciles?

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Emma

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Re: Gun laws in Australia
Reply #1840 - Jul 8^th, 2015 at 8:04pm

Panther wrote on Jul 8^th, 2015 at 11:09am:

So far, two people told me what they think.

Neither have negated the fact that Humans have the right to self-defense.

Neither of them have proven that your government can protect us when our life, or the lives of our family, are threatened by a violent criminal, or criminals.

Neither of them have proven that the police, hired by your government to protect you, can protect you when your life, or the lives of your family, are threatened by a violent criminal when they aren't right there with you to do so.

The fact remains very clear ...... when you need protection, the responsibility inevitably falls upon you yourself to take personal responsibility in providing for your own protection!

How you do so is our choice, not the governments.

Laws need to be changed to reflect fact.

I'm with you Panther. I have been in that situation, and I acted tp protect myself. When the Police arrived, after the Ambulance by the way, they arrested me.

I was the criminal in their eyes. Further I was a licensed gun owner, although under the earlier state based legislation, not the National one currently in place, which is much more onerous.

.

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Emma

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Re: Gun laws in Australia
Reply #1841 - Jul 8^th, 2015 at 8:11pm

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 4^th, 2015 at 11:51pm:

[quote author=jalane3311@yahoo.c link=1389775225/1752#1752 date=1436013115]WOW BR.! Roll Eyes

Have the POLICE apologised to them? Have they? I haven't heard anything about that.

No idea, I admit, Emma. However, I don't doubt it will come.

Quote:

The media shutdown in operation. Especially in QLD where Police are seriously into overkill. Mind you lots of people, mainly mentally ill, have been killed by Police in Australia. I'd think.., if we ever had the op to get the info, that Police account for a large proportion of gun deaths in OZ. Perhaps not as much as men killing their partners and children, BUT CLOSE.
Imagine that ? Huh

Of course, WE the people aren't allowed to KNOW about this sort of stuff. We get a bit from local News, then it disappears. Amazing eh?
AND BR.. you ought to know that a woman isn't even allowed to carry hairspray, if they happen to feel the need for self-protection, and say so to a police person. Might spray it into some assaulters eyes.!! Roll Eyes

EEK, can't have that happening, because in the eyes of the Law, that is taking the Law into your own hands. Nope, not allowed Not allowed. . That constitutes a crime!!
YOU should know that, seeing as you are so full of this fact business. You can't carry a small pocket-knife, or a kubitan, or even a sharp comb, if you have it to feel self-protected. THAT is a fact BR. YOU know nothing whatsoever about it. That is also FACT.

Guess what BR .. the Police arrested them, then let them go. NO APOLOGY, AND the Police state they are still pursuing advice as to whether they can press charges. Your faith in the Police is purely based on ignorance.

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« Last Edit: Jul 8^th, 2015 at 8:25pm by Emma »

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Emma

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Re: Gun laws in Australia
Reply #1842 - Jul 8^th, 2015 at 8:32pm

MumboJumbo wrote on Jul 8^th, 2015 at 6:12pm:

[quote author=Baronvonrort link=1389775225/1787#1787 date=1436256141]

The police website has the actual legislation link, click on weapons prohibition act 1998 , it's number 7 in the contents-offence of unauthorised possession or use of prohibited weapon.

www.police.nsw.gov.au/services/firearms/permits/prohibited_weapon_permits

Ah, now we're getting somewhere, Baron. Your reasoning is logical, but unfortunately you're taking the WPA in a vacuum. s7 of the WPA says:

Quote:

WEAPONS PROHIBITION ACT 1998 - SECT 7
Offence of unauthorised possession or use of prohibited weapon
7 Offence of unauthorised possession or use of prohibited weapon

(1) A person must not possess or use a prohibited weapon unless the person is authorised to do so by a permit.

      Maximum penalty: imprisonment for 14 years.

(2) Without limiting the operation of subsection (1), a person who is the holder of a permit to possess or use a prohibited weapon is guilty of an offence under this section if the person:

      (a) possesses or uses the prohibited weapon for any purpose otherwise than in connection with the purpose established by the person as being the genuine reason for possessing or using the weapon, or

      (b) contravenes any condition of the permit.

So, on the face of it, self defence falls within s7(a), as you cannot get a permit for self-defence (as you've told the forum many a time). However, there is another statute you've failed to consider. That's the Crimes Act 1900 (NSW).

[quote]

For a start, you have quoted that incorrectly.
It would be S7(2)(a) and/or S7(2)(b) which in both cases means you are breaking the Law, not the other way around. AND YES Federal Legislation DOES override Crimes Act 1900 (NSW).
Get your facts straight, and please quote correctly, if you think you can spout Law as argument, otherwise its just incorrect, a waste of space, and my time and patience...

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MumboJumbo

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Re: Gun laws in Australia
Reply #1843 - Jul 8^th, 2015 at 8:58pm

Emma wrote on Jul 8^th, 2015 at 8:32pm:

It would be S7(2)(a) and/or S7(2)(b) which in both cases means you are breaking the Law, not the other way around. AND YES Federal Legislation DOES override Crimes Act 1900 (NSW).

I'll put your rudeness down to old age and worsening Alzheimer's, and simply deal with your argument.

1. It is primarily s7(a) that would be enlivened, unless you have a specific condition on your permit saying "not for self defence" or similar -- then it would enliven s7(b). But the point is moot, really.

2. Federal legislation DOES override state legislation. However, you will note that the WPA is in fact NSW statute. When people (like you) refer to it as a federal scheme, it is incorrect. It is simply the states individually enacting a uniform scheme. Why? Because the federal parliament has no power to enact such legislation (most of its power comes from s51 of the Commonwealth Constitution).

So, in closing, I'll refer you to your own lovely words of wisdom:

Emma wrote on Jul 8^th, 2015 at 8:32pm:

Get your facts straight, and please quote correctly, if you think you can spout Law as argument, otherwise its just incorrect, a waste of space, and my time and patience...

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See Profile For Update wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2015 at 2:58pm:

Why the bugger did I get stuck on a planet chalked full of imbeciles?

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Emma Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 9853 OZ Gender:	Re: Gun laws in Australia Reply #1844 - Jul 8^th, 2015 at 9:29pm OK I am wrong on the WPA. It is only applicable in NSW. QLD has its own. Humble apologies.
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