Australian Politics Forum - Gun laws in Australia

Baronvonrort

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Re: Gun laws in Australia
Reply #1785 - Jul 7^th, 2015 at 1:22pm

MumboJumbo wrote on Jul 7^th, 2015 at 1:01pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Jul 7^th, 2015 at 12:28pm:

You can own those weapons with a prohibited weapons permit, you cannot use them for self defence.
Did you read division 2 permit scheme 11 genuine reason did that outlaw personal protection as a genuine reason for these weapons?

Based on what you've said there, Baron, I'd say the truer position is that you cannot own those weapons for the purpose of self defence. But, if the situation came up -- I'd say you'd be quite entitled to so use them.

Using a prohibited weapon for self defence has a maximum penalty of 14 years jail time according to the weapons prohibition act 1998.

I would say you're in deep sh1t if you use a prohibited weapon for self defence.

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MumboJumbo

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Re: Gun laws in Australia
Reply #1786 - Jul 7^th, 2015 at 5:42pm

Baronvonrort wrote on Jul 7^th, 2015 at 1:22pm:

MumboJumbo wrote on Jul 7^th, 2015 at 1:01pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Jul 7^th, 2015 at 12:28pm:

You can own those weapons with a prohibited weapons permit, you cannot use them for self defence.
Did you read division 2 permit scheme 11 genuine reason did that outlaw personal protection as a genuine reason for these weapons?

Based on what you've said there, Baron, I'd say the truer position is that you cannot own those weapons for the purpose of self defence. But, if the situation came up -- I'd say you'd be quite entitled to so use them.

Using a prohibited weapon for self defence has a maximum penalty of 14 years jail time according to the weapons prohibition act 1998.

I would say you're in deep sh1t if you use a prohibited weapon for self defence.

Really? That sounds a bit strange, even by NSW standards. It would help if you could point to a section in the WPA. Can you?

Here's a link to the WPA.

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See Profile For Update wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2015 at 2:58pm:

Why the bugger did I get stuck on a planet chalked full of imbeciles?

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Baronvonrort

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Re: Gun laws in Australia
Reply #1787 - Jul 7^th, 2015 at 6:02pm

MumboJumbo wrote on Jul 7^th, 2015 at 5:42pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Jul 7^th, 2015 at 1:22pm:

MumboJumbo wrote on Jul 7^th, 2015 at 1:01pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Jul 7^th, 2015 at 12:28pm:

You can own those weapons with a prohibited weapons permit, you cannot use them for self defence.
Did you read division 2 permit scheme 11 genuine reason did that outlaw personal protection as a genuine reason for these weapons?

Based on what you've said there, Baron, I'd say the truer position is that you cannot own those weapons for the purpose of self defence. But, if the situation came up -- I'd say you'd be quite entitled to so use them.

Using a prohibited weapon for self defence has a maximum penalty of 14 years jail time according to the weapons prohibition act 1998.

I would say you're in deep sh1t if you use a prohibited weapon for self defence.

Really? That sounds a bit strange, even by NSW standards. It would help if you could point to a section in the WPA. Can you?

Here's a link to the WPA.

The police website has the actual legislation link, click on weapons prohibition act 1998 , it's number 7 in the contents-offence of unauthorised possession or use of prohibited weapon.

www.police.nsw.gov.au/services/firearms/permits/prohibited_weapon_permits

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Brian Ross

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Re: Gun laws in Australia
Reply #1788 - Jul 7^th, 2015 at 7:31pm

Baronvonrort wrote on Jul 7^th, 2015 at 12:28pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 6^th, 2015 at 11:51pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Jul 6^th, 2015 at 10:58am:

Go back and read the thread bwian I have cited this before,i cannot help the fact you are a retarded troll.

A hint- Weapons prohibition act 1998.

I've read it and no where does it state that you cannot have a weapon for self-defence, Baron. It lists in Schedule One a series of weapon types that you cannot own

You can own those weapons with a prohibited weapons permit, you cannot use them for self defence.
Did you read division 2 permit scheme 11 genuine reason did that outlaw personal protection as a genuine reason for these weapons?

I see why nobody bothers with your forum bwian you cannot comprehend what you read.

Lets see what your favourite piece of legislation actually states, Baron (you know the one you refuse to link to for some reason):

Quote:

WEAPONS PROHIBITION ACT 1998 - SECT 11
Genuine reason
11 Genuine reason

(1) The Commissioner must not issue a permit authorising the possession or use of a prohibited weapon unless the applicant has, in the opinion of the Commissioner, a genuine reason for possessing or using the weapon.

(2) Without limiting the reasons that the Commissioner may be satisfied are genuine reasons, the Commissioner may determine that an applicant has a genuine reason for possessing or using a prohibited weapon if the applicant:

      (a) states that he or she intends to possess or use the weapon:

         (i) for any one or more of the reasons set out in the Table to this subsection, or

         (ii) for any other reason prescribed by the regulations, and

      (b) is able to produce evidence to the Commissioner that he or she satisfies the requirements (if any) specified in respect of any such reason.

      Table Reason: recreational/sporting purposes
      The applicant must demonstrate that the recreational or sporting activity concerned requires the possession or use of the prohibited weapon for which the permit is sought.
      Reason: historical re-enactment purposes
      The applicant must be a current member of a historic or commemorative club or society approved by the Commissioner in accordance with the regulations and which conducts activities or events requiring the possession or use of the prohibited weapon for which the permit is sought.
      Reason: business/employment purposes
      The applicant must demonstrate that it is necessary in the conduct of the applicant’s business or employment to possess or use the prohibited weapon for which the permit is sought.
      Reason: film/TV/theatrical purposes
      The applicant must demonstrate that the film, television or theatrical activity concerned requires the possession or use of the prohibited weapon for which the permit is sought.
      Reason: weapons collection
      The applicant must:

         (a) be a current member of a collectors’ club or society approved by the Commissioner in accordance with the regulations, and

         (b) demonstrate that the applicant’s weapons collection has a genuine commemorative, historical, thematic or financial value.

      Reason: public museum purposes
      The applicant must demonstrate that the public museum concerned is involved in the collection and display of prohibited weapons.
      Reason: heirloom
      The applicant must demonstrate that the applicant has inherited the prohibited weapon for which the permit is sought and that the weapon has a genuine sentimental value.
      Reason: animal management
      The applicant must be a veterinary practitioner (within the meaning of the Veterinary Practice Act 2003 ), or an organisation that has responsibilities for animal management, and demonstrate that it is necessary in the conduct of the applicant’s responsibilities to possess or use the prohibited weapon for which the permit is sought.
      Reason: scientific purposes
      The applicant must demonstrate that the prohibited weapon for which the permit is sought is required for legitimate scientific purposes.

(3) The possession or use of a prohibited weapon for personal protection, or for the protection of any other person, is not a genuine reason for the possession or use of the weapon. However, any such reason may constitute a genuine reason in the case of a prohibited weapon referred to in clause 4 (1) of Schedule 1 or in the case of a prohibited weapon that is of a kind prescribed by the regulations for the purposes of this subsection.

(4) Subsection (3) does not limit the reasons that the Commissioner may determine are not genuine reasons for the purposes of possessing or using a prohibited weapon.

[Source]

At no point does it state you cannot own a weapon for self-defence. It just states you cannot own a "prohibited weapons" as outlined in Schedule 1 of the Act for self-defence.

Looks to me like you're still fixated on firearms, Baron... There are other weapons available, you realise? Roll Eyes

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Lionel Edriess Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 1932 Gender:	Re: Gun laws in Australia Reply #1789 - Jul 7^th, 2015 at 9:00pm I'm of an age where I could justify using a 'stick'. As recommended by some. I have an old footy injury, so: http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/COLD-STEEL-PISTOL-GRIP-CITY-STICK/221773922292?_trksi... As long as I'm 'unloaded', I should be fine.
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Emma

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Re: Gun laws in Australia
Reply #1790 - Jul 7^th, 2015 at 9:53pm

I've read it and no where does it state that you cannot have a weapon for self-defence, Baron. It lists in Schedule One a series of weapon types that you cannot own
[/quote]

You can own those weapons with a prohibited weapons permit, you cannot use them for self defence.
Did you read division 2 permit scheme 11 genuine reason did that outlaw personal protection as a genuine reason for these weapons?

I see why nobody bothers with your forum bwian you cannot comprehend what you read.
[/quote]

Lets see what your favourite piece of legislation actually states, Baron (you know the one you refuse to link to for some reason):

Quote:

WEAPONS PROHIBITION ACT 1998 - SECT 11
Genuine reason
11 Genuine reason

(1) The Commissioner must not issue a permit authorising the possession or use of a prohibited weapon unless the applicant has, in the opinion of the Commissioner, a genuine reason for possessing or using the weapon.

(2) Without limiting the reasons that the Commissioner may be satisfied are genuine reasons, the Commissioner may determine that an applicant has a genuine reason for possessing or using a prohibited weapon if the applicant:

      (a) states that he or she intends to possess or use the weapon:

         (i) for any one or more of the reasons set out in the Table to this subsection, or

         (ii) for any other reason prescribed by the regulations, and

      (b) is able to produce evidence to the Commissioner that he or she satisfies the requirements (if any) specified in respect of any such reason.

     ...... (3) The possession or use of a prohibited weapon for personal protection, or for the protection of any other person, is not a genuine reason for the possession or use of the weapon. However, any such reason may constitute a genuine reason in the case of a prohibited weapon referred to in clause 4 (1) of Schedule 1 or in the case of a prohibited weapon that is of a kind prescribed by the regulations for the purposes of this subsection.

(4) Subsection (3) does not limit the reasons that the Commissioner may determine are not genuine reasons for the purposes of possessing or using a prohibited weapon.

ml]Source[/url]]

At no point does it state you cannot own a weapon for self-defence. It just states you cannot own a "prohibited weapons" as outlined in Schedule 1 of the Act for self-defence.

Looks to me like you're still fixated on firearms, Baron... There are other weapons available, you realise? Roll Eyes

[/quote]

BR.. interpretation of law is complex, and what you have here specifically excludes self defence as a Genuine Reason for ownership of the weapon(s)... be they guns, knives, bows, or any other listed in the Act..

It is very specific in what Genuine Reasons are. Only those reasons listed above are genuine reasons, for which the Commissioner can issue a permit under this Act. ( I had to delete them because of the limit placed on characters in posts.)

So carrying on about..'At no point does it state you cannot own a weapon for self-defence.' is simply meaningless and shows you do not grasp the actual meaning of the Act, in it's entirety. Your interpretation is incorrect. As Baron says, you do not comprehend what you have read.

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Baronvonrort

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Re: Gun laws in Australia
Reply #1791 - Jul 7^th, 2015 at 11:06pm

Emma wrote on Jul 7^th, 2015 at 9:53pm:

Quote:

WEAPONS PROHIBITION ACT 1998 - SECT 11
Genuine reason
11 Genuine reason

...... (3) The possession or use of a prohibited weapon for personal protection, or for the protection of any other person, is not a genuine reason for the possession or use of the weapon

It is very specific in what Genuine Reasons are. Only those reasons listed above are genuine reasons, for which the Commissioner can issue a permit under this Act. ( I had to delete them because of the limit placed on characters in posts.)

So carrying on about..'At no point does it state you cannot own a weapon for self-defence.' is simply meaningless and shows you do not grasp the actual meaning of the Act, in it's entirety. Your interpretation is incorrect. As Baron says, you do not comprehend what you have read.

All the weapons Senator Leyonhjelm mentioned for self defence like guns-knives-mace-pepper spray-tasars-telescopic batons and even kung dam you sticks are prohibited weapons that are not allowed to be used for self defence.

Kung dam you sticks are a prohibited weapon, what a nanny state we have become,look at the date on that act 2 years after Pt Arthur and no major incidents with those weapons yet they were still banned.

(FD nanny spell checker doesn't like k-u-n-g f-u it changes it .lmao at this nanny bullshit)

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Brian Ross

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Re: Gun laws in Australia
Reply #1792 - Jul 7^th, 2015 at 11:20pm

Again, Emma and Baron, you are fixated on what you cannot own for self-defence and assume that means you have no right to self-defence. This is just wrong. Australians have a right to self-defence and can own weapons for self-defence - as long as they are not prohibited from doing so. You can own a stick for self-defence. You can own a hat pin for self-defence. Stop fixating on guns and all the other prohibited weapons and instead look around you at what can be used as a weapon for self-defence. Roll Eyes

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Emma

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Re: Gun laws in Australia
Reply #1793 - Jul 7^th, 2015 at 11:35pm

This is just wrong. Australians have a right to self-defence and can own weapons for self-defence - as long as they are not prohibited from doing so. You can own a stick for self-defence. You can own a hat pin for self-defence. Stop fixating on guns and all the other prohibited weapons and instead look around you at what can be used as a weapon for self-defence. Roll Eyes

[/quote]
Wrong again BR. You cannot own a hat-pin or a stick for the purposes of self defence.

Try re-reading the part that lists prohibited weapons.
The Commissioner has discretion, and if you hold and use any thing which you intend for self-defence you are in breach of the Law. Try to grasp the 'meaning' of the Act please.
The key concept you MUST understand is 'intent' in this instance.

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« Last Edit: Jul 8^th, 2015 at 1:22am by Emma »

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Emma Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 9853 OZ Gender:	Re: Gun laws in Australia Reply #1794 - Jul 8^th, 2015 at 1:24am This is just wrong. Australians have a right to self-defence and can own weapons for self-defence - Brian Ross. So what legislation can you quote to substantiate this view BR.?
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Panther

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Re: Gun laws in Australia
Reply #1795 - Jul 8^th, 2015 at 10:25am

Emma wrote on Jul 8^th, 2015 at 1:24am:

This is just wrong. Australians have a right to self-defence and can own weapons for self-defence
- Brian Ross.

So what legislation can you quote to substantiate this view BR.?

Gun Control isn't about GUNS, it's about CONTROL.........PEOPLE CONTROL!

These following videos were produced in the United States, where they have the right to Self-Defense using firearms as one method of defense.

Regardless of where the message was produced, the message is the same, & the message is fact.

Governments, & the police force they hire, are simply hired to protect the people that employ them.

When governments & the police are powerless to protect those people that hire them for that purpose, then it's the right of the people, better yet it is the obligation of the people, to provide for their own protection & safety.

The government can write laws to protect those people, but they are powerless to enforce those laws themselves. They hire the police for that express reason.

The police, with all the good intentions they may have, are powerless to enforce the laws established by government, unless they are directly at the location where there is a desperate need for them.

They must be within shouting distance of someone being attacked to be directly effective, otherwise all the police can do is take down information about the crime from witnesses, if any, & draw a thick chalk line around the lifeless body of the person that was fatally attacked -- the very person they were helpless to protect, but were hired to do so by the government.

"When seconds matter, the police are usually only minutes away."

Humans have the right to self-defense, & no government or police force has the right to tell any human being what methods they are permitted to use to defend themselves if they firmly believe their life, or the lives of their family, are threatened.....................period.

These facts won't change, & no government spokesman, or government official can ever change those facts.

What do you think?

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« Last Edit: Jul 8^th, 2015 at 10:32am by Panther »

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When government fears the People there is Freedom & Liberty!"

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Prime Minister for Canyons Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 26906 Canberra Gender:	Re: Gun laws in Australia Reply #1796 - Jul 8^th, 2015 at 10:37am Mike Adams and facts are distant strangers, never actually having seen each other.
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rhino Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 17179 Gender:	Re: Gun laws in Australia Reply #1797 - Jul 8^th, 2015 at 10:38am Panther wrote on Jul 8^th, 2015 at 10:25am: [ What do you think? I think your need to own a gun is based on your own insecurity and fear and not on any rational basis.
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Panther

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Re: Gun laws in Australia
Reply #1798 - Jul 8^th, 2015 at 11:09am

So far, two people told me what they think.

Neither have negated the fact that Humans have the right to self-defense.

Neither of them have proven that your government can protect us when our life, or the lives of our family, are threatened by a violent criminal, or criminals.

Neither of them have proven that the police, hired by your government to protect you, can protect you when your life, or the lives of your family, are threatened by a violent criminal when they aren't right there with you to do so.

The fact remains very clear ...... when you need protection, the responsibility inevitably falls upon you yourself to take personal responsibility in providing for your own protection!

How you do so is our choice, not the governments.

Laws need to be changed to reflect fact.

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« Last Edit: Jul 8^th, 2015 at 11:14am by Panther »

"When the People fear government there is Tyranny;
When government fears the People there is Freedom & Liberty!"

'
Live FREE or DIE!
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Prime Minister for Canyons

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Re: Gun laws in Australia
Reply #1799 - Jul 8^th, 2015 at 11:10am

Panther wrote on Jul 8^th, 2015 at 11:09am:

So far, two people told me what they think.

Neither have negated the fact that Humans have the right to self-defense.

Neither of them have proven that your government can protect you when your life, or the lives of your family, are threatened by a violent criminal.

Neither of them have proven that the police, hired by your government to protect you, can protect you when your life, or the lives of your family, are threatened by a violent criminal when they aren't right there with you.

The fact remains very clear ...... when you need protection, the responsibility inevitably falls upon you yourself to take personal responsibility in providing for your own protection!

Having been like the vast majority of Aussies, and not actually been threatened by a violent criminal, its hard for me to determine the need.

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In a time of universal deceit — telling the truth is a revolutionary act.

No evidence whatsoever it can be attributed to George Orwell or Eric Arthur Blair (in fact the same guy)

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