Australian Politics Forum - If you get on a boat

Stratos

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Re: If you get on a boat
Reply #45 - Dec 1^st, 2013 at 8:43am

OK, broad stokes....

Big Dave wrote on Dec 1^st, 2013 at 8:36am:

So putting your children on a boat that could sink is not a child welfare issue?

That is not what I said. It is preferable to give your child a shot at freedom than to watch them be tortured and killed back in your homeland, yes. Of course it isn't good that they are taking this journey, but often asylum seekers are left with precious few options.

Big Dave wrote on Dec 1^st, 2013 at 8:36am:

So in your eyes it's not a crime to drive a vessel of people out to sea knowing it's unsafe?

That is a crime yes, the crime of people smuggling, and most likely reckless endangerment, negligent manslaughter etc. But this crime is being committed by the people smugglers, NOT the passengers.

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Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 15^th, 2014 at 11:24pm:

Thus killing those Canaanite babies while they were still innocent, was a particularly merciful act

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Big Dave

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Re: If you get on a boat
Reply #46 - Dec 1^st, 2013 at 8:47am

Stratos wrote on Dec 1^st, 2013 at 8:43am:

OK, broad stokes....

Big Dave wrote on Dec 1^st, 2013 at 8:36am:

So putting your children on a boat that could sink is not a child welfare issue?

That is not what I said. It is preferable to give your child a shot at freedom than to watch them be tortured and killed back in your homeland, yes. Of course it isn't good that they are taking this journey, but often asylum seekers are left with precious few options.

Big Dave wrote on Dec 1^st, 2013 at 8:36am:

So in your eyes it's not a crime to drive a vessel of people out to sea knowing it's unsafe?

That is a crime yes, the crime of people smuggling, and most likely reckless endangerment, negligent manslaughter etc. But this crime is being committed by the people smugglers, NOT the passengers.

I give up. I doesn't matter because it's finishing up anyway.

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Datalife

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Re: If you get on a boat
Reply #47 - Dec 1^st, 2013 at 9:15am

Fleeing from "persecution" suddenly doesn't look so good when there is no centrelink at the end of the country shopping.

Quote:

ABOUT 80 asylum-seekers sent to Papua New Guinea have already returned to their home countries after being found to be "economic migrants" rather than refugees.

PNG Prime Minister Peter O'Neill told The Weekend Australian that this "quite sizeable number" of people had left for Sri Lanka, Iran and other countries.

Immigration Minister Scott Morrison said there were plans to build a "removal centre" at the asylum-seeker processing centre on Manus Island to house those whose claims had failed and were due to be flown out.

Mr O'Neill said that so far, the process had been voluntary.

"Processing in Manus is slowly taking place, but we are finding a large number of them are economic migrants, and as such many of them are now willing to leave the centre and return to their country of origin," he said.

Last Friday, there were 1144 asylum-seekers at the centre. None has so far been found to be a refugee.

But if people were assessed as genuine refugees, Mr O'Neill said, "we would have to take our share, and Australia and other Pacific island countries would have to take theirs - something on which we are working with the Australian government and officials".

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/policy/bogus-asylum-seekers-sent-home-from-png/story-fn9hm1gu-1226771748834#

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"If they’re out there in the high seas, what you would do is seek to turn them back through the agency of the Australian Navy".

Kevin Rudd on 2GB, July 12, 2007

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Big Dave

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Re: If you get on a boat
Reply #48 - Dec 1^st, 2013 at 9:22am

Datalife wrote on Dec 1^st, 2013 at 9:15am:

Fleeing from "persecution" suddenly doesn't look so good when there is no centrelink at the end of the country shopping.

Quote:

ABOUT 80 asylum-seekers sent to Papua New Guinea have already returned to their home countries after being found to be "economic migrants" rather than refugees.

PNG Prime Minister Peter O'Neill told The Weekend Australian that this "quite sizeable number" of people had left for Sri Lanka, Iran and other countries.

Immigration Minister Scott Morrison said there were plans to build a "removal centre" at the asylum-seeker processing centre on Manus Island to house those whose claims had failed and were due to be flown out.

Mr O'Neill said that so far, the process had been voluntary.

"Processing in Manus is slowly taking place, but we are finding a large number of them are economic migrants, and as such many of them are now willing to leave the centre and return to their country of origin," he said.

Last Friday, there were 1144 asylum-seekers at the centre. None has so far been found to be a refugee.

But if people were assessed as genuine refugees, Mr O'Neill said, "we would have to take our share, and Australia and other Pacific island countries would have to take theirs - something on which we are working with the Australian government and officials".

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/policy/bogus-asylum-seekers-sent-home-from-png/story-fn9hm1gu-1226771748834#

After this is done the government should go through all the refugees that made it here and reassess their claims.

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Stratos

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Re: If you get on a boat
Reply #49 - Dec 1^st, 2013 at 9:47am

Datalife wrote on Dec 1^st, 2013 at 9:15am:

Fleeing from "persecution" suddenly doesn't look so good when there is no centrelink at the end of the country shopping.

Refugees found not to be genuine and sent home. As per the process.

Over 90% of refugees have genuine claims to asylum, those that aren't are returned home. Mind you, when the processing uses things like separation from family as a means to get you deported, I'm not surprised that some would prefer to return home.

Who would have thought it would be so simple? Treat people worse than third world countries? Genius!

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Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 15^th, 2014 at 11:24pm:

Thus killing those Canaanite babies while they were still innocent, was a particularly merciful act

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ian Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 9451	Re: If you get on a boat Reply #50 - Dec 1^st, 2013 at 9:54am greggerypeccary wrote on Dec 1^st, 2013 at 8:21am: Incorrect. You need to read the UN Convention again. I wasnt aware the UN determines Australias immigration and border policy. Are the rest of our laws also somehow invalid as well?
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Stratos

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Re: If you get on a boat
Reply #51 - Dec 1^st, 2013 at 9:57am

ian wrote on Dec 1^st, 2013 at 9:54am:

greggerypeccary wrote on Dec 1^st, 2013 at 8:21am:

Incorrect.

You need to read the UN Convention again.

I wasnt aware the UN determines Asutralias immigration and border policy. Are the rest of our laws also somehow invalid as well?

It overrules it in certain circumstances, like an ambulance running a red light is legal but not a regular car.

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Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 15^th, 2014 at 11:24pm:

Thus killing those Canaanite babies while they were still innocent, was a particularly merciful act

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ian

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Re: If you get on a boat
Reply #52 - Dec 1^st, 2013 at 10:02am

Stratos wrote on Dec 1^st, 2013 at 9:57am:

ian wrote on Dec 1^st, 2013 at 9:54am:

greggerypeccary wrote on Dec 1^st, 2013 at 8:21am:

Incorrect.

You need to read the UN Convention again.

I wasnt aware the UN determines Asutralias immigration and border policy. Are the rest of our laws also somehow invalid as well?

It overrules it in certain circumstances, like an ambulance running a red light is legal but not a regular car.

incorrect, it does not over rule our law. The asylum seekers are still entering oiur country illegal under the inmigration and border control act. We choose not to prosecute due to being signatory to the UN convention. It is quite correct to label these asylum seekers as illegals.

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Stratos

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Re: If you get on a boat
Reply #53 - Dec 1^st, 2013 at 10:11am

1. The Contracting States shall not impose penalties, on account of their
illegal entry or presence, on refugees who, coming directly from a territory
where their life or freedom was threatened in the sense of Article1, enter or
are present in their territory without authorization, provided they present
themselves without delay to the authorities and show good cause for their
illegal entry or presence.

This is the piece being referred to, and it clearly says that anyone who signs it cannot impose penalties on asylum seekers based on their means of transport, or due to them not having the correct paperwork. It would normally be illegal yes, but we cannot impose penalties (like convictions, sentences, fines)

The correct term was until recently "irregular maritime arrivals", under the new government they are deemed "illegal maritime arrivals", but they still cannot be convicted of any sort of crime because of their lack of papers or transport. Illegal arrival is technically correct now, but calling asylum seekers illegals or illegal immigrants is very misleading and incorrect.

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Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 15^th, 2014 at 11:24pm:

Thus killing those Canaanite babies while they were still innocent, was a particularly merciful act

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Big Dave

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Re: If you get on a boat
Reply #54 - Dec 1^st, 2013 at 10:15am

Many refugees that made it to Australia are on bridging visas. If their home countries are deemed safe enough or there isn't any valid reason they should be here they will be sent home too. I'd say the government will get the people smuggling part of the issue under control before they move on to the next part. You'll find very few asylum seekers were facing grave danger before they left their home countries.

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ian

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Re: If you get on a boat
Reply #55 - Dec 1^st, 2013 at 10:16am

Stratos, you need to understand the difference between a "convention" and australian law. Im well aware of what the convention states and the terms different governments have had for these illegal immigrants. Australian law states that anyone who arrives in australia without a valid visa committs an offence. Regardless of their intent to claim asylum when they arrive here these boat poeople are comitting an offence, i.e. immigrating here illegally.

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ian

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Re: If you get on a boat
Reply #56 - Dec 1^st, 2013 at 10:18am

Edited:

Stratos wrote on Dec 1^st, 2013 at 10:11am:

but they still cannot be convicted of any sort of crime because of their lack of papers or transport. Illegal arrival is technically correct now, but calling asylum seekers illegals or illegal immigrants is very misleading and incorrect.

wrong, we choose not to prosecute but we can if we wish.

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Stratos

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Re: If you get on a boat
Reply #57 - Dec 1^st, 2013 at 10:26am

Big Dave wrote on Dec 1^st, 2013 at 10:15am:

Many refugees that made it to Australia are on bridging visas. If their home countries are deemed safe enough or there isn't any valid reason they should be here they will be sent home too. I'd say the government will get the people smuggling part of the issue under control before they move on to the next part. You'll find very few asylum seekers were facing grave danger before they left their home countries.

Do you have any evidence to support this?

ian wrote on Dec 1^st, 2013 at 10:16am:

Stratos, you need to understand the difference between a "convention" and australian law

I know there is a difference, but we have signed an international agreement which the country is supposed to adhere to, and it says we cannot punish asylum seekers because they don't have papers. We break it all the time anyway, don't know why we even bother remaining a signatory. Wish the UN had something stronger than stern words to make Australia keep our commitment.

ian wrote on Dec 1^st, 2013 at 10:18am:

wrong, we choose not to prosecute but we can if we wish.

We do not persecute because that would breach the UN document we signed. Mind you, we breach it as a matter of national policy anyway.

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Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 15^th, 2014 at 11:24pm:

Thus killing those Canaanite babies while they were still innocent, was a particularly merciful act

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Big Dave

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Re: If you get on a boat
Reply #58 - Dec 1^st, 2013 at 10:29am

Stratos wrote on Dec 1^st, 2013 at 10:26am:

Big Dave wrote on Dec 1^st, 2013 at 10:15am:

Many refugees that made it to Australia are on bridging visas. If their home countries are deemed safe enough or there isn't any valid reason they should be here they will be sent home too. I'd say the government will get the people smuggling part of the issue under control before they move on to the next part. You'll find very few asylum seekers were facing grave danger before they left their home countries.

Do you have any evidence to support this?

ian wrote on Dec 1^st, 2013 at 10:16am:

Stratos, you need to understand the difference between a "convention" and australian law

I know there is a difference, but we have signed an international agreement which the country is supposed to adhere to, and it says we cannot punish asylum seekers because they don't have papers. We break it all the time anyway, don't know why we even bother remaining a signatory. Wish the UN had something stronger than stern words to make Australia keep our commitment.

ian wrote on Dec 1^st, 2013 at 10:18am:

wrong, we choose not to prosecute but we can if we wish.

We do not persecute because that would breach the UN document we signed. Mind you, we breach it as a matter of national policy anyway.

Do you? Can you prove it when they say their life is endangered. Maybe some of the Afghan's. It's easy to say but is it true? Go on, give me some examples.

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Stratos

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Re: If you get on a boat
Reply #59 - Dec 1^st, 2013 at 10:49am

Big Dave wrote on Dec 1^st, 2013 at 10:29am:

Do you? Can you prove it when they say their life is endangered.

Doesn't say under which circumstances the people arrived, but if they made a successful claim to asylum (around 90%) then they are found to have had a threat to their freedom or safety.

Here you go. Very easy to find from many sources.

http://www.factsfightback.org.au/are-asylum-seeker-claims-genuine-check-the-facts/

Fact checking websites

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/overwhelming-majority-of-boat-arrivals-deemed-to-be-refugees-20130519-2juty.html

Sydney Morning herald

http://www.news.com.au/world/ten-myths-around-asylum-seekers-arriving-on-boats-in-australian-waters/story-fndir2ev-1226676024840

Even Murdoch dooesn't argue with this one

Government website

http://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliament/Parliamentary_Departments/Parliamentary_Library/pubs/BN/2012-2013/AsylumFacts#_Toc348096466

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Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 15^th, 2014 at 11:24pm:

Thus killing those Canaanite babies while they were still innocent, was a particularly merciful act

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