Australian Politics Forum - Discussions on the question of personal conscienc

Soren Gold Member Offline Posts: 25654 Gender:	Re: Discussions on the question of personal conscienc Reply #30 - Oct 17^th, 2013 at 8:57pm I thought the left was evolutionary and biological and non-religious while the right remained religious, traditional, unswayed by fads and fashions (ie conserving of established ways). When did this change? Anyway, this is not a party political discussion. (or is it??)
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Winston Smith

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Re: Discussions on the question of personal conscienc
Reply #31 - Oct 17^th, 2013 at 9:24pm

Soren wrote on Oct 17^th, 2013 at 8:57pm:

I thought the left was evolutionary and biological and non-religious while the right remained religious, traditional, unswayed by fads and fashions (ie conserving of established ways).

When did this change?

Anyway, this is not a party political discussion. (or is it??)

They will stoop to anything in the defence of the indefensible. It's more about confusing issues while allowing 'business' to go on as usual. Social conservatism is about the idea that in the end might makes right, so it doesn't matter what you think. Human society is barely out of the animal kingdom.

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Yadda

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Re: Discussions on the question of personal conscienc
Reply #32 - Oct 17^th, 2013 at 10:03pm

Annie Anthrax wrote on Oct 17^th, 2013 at 3:42pm:

I'm more of a Scrabble girl and I don't lose when I play. I'm a hopeless strategist, though, so chess isn't my forte. My boyfriend tried to teach me, but it was all in vain, I'm afraid - I can never think further than my next move.

Scrabble, all those words!

Not my natural game.

I'm sure that you would win, if we played.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Yadda

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Re: Discussions on the question of personal conscienc
Reply #33 - Oct 17^th, 2013 at 10:13pm

Winston Smith wrote on Oct 17^th, 2013 at 8:18pm:

Yadda wrote on Oct 16^th, 2013 at 10:00pm:

Yadda wrote on Oct 16^th, 2013 at 9:45pm:

Annie Anthrax wrote on Oct 15^th, 2013 at 8:52pm:

Postmodern Trendoid wrote on Oct 15^th, 2013 at 5:36pm:

Is our personal conscience really personal, or just forgotten internalised social mores?

Overwhelmingly the latter - at least for small matters of conscience.

That's my problem with the idea of sin and religious morals.

They arouse unnecessary feelings of guilt and shame.

Postmodern Trendoid wrote on Oct 16^th, 2013 at 11:32am:

Okay. Do you think that there's some other influence than introjected social mores?

Postmodern Trendoid,

When you say; "other influences", are you referring to the 'unnecessary feelings of guilt and shame', mentioned by Annie ?

And Annie,

If we actually do something wrong, is it then subsequently 'unnatural', for us to then have [to 'own'] 'feelings of guilt and shame' [if we have made a poor choice] ?

And if you believe that [stance], can you justify that stance ?

i.e.
Why shouldn't you be held to account, every time, that you make a poor choice ?

I'd like to play chess with you Annie, coz you would concede, the moment that you recognised that you had previously made some 'bad' moves.

That is correct, isn't it ?

That you are just a 'runner', 'away from' ?

[you can bite my head off, tis OK.]

Reinforce success, abandon failure. Military strategy 101.

No argument.

I would argue that it is also a good 'strategy', to apply to perceived merit.

i.e.
That is, if we desire/want a meritocracy ?

Can you fault a system of living that is [really] based upon meritocracy ?

p.s.
I would hope to see a 'meritocracy' that is based [graded] upon outcomes, not just based upon 'qualifications'.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Yadda

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Re: Discussions on the question of personal conscienc
Reply #34 - Oct 17^th, 2013 at 10:29pm

Soren wrote on Oct 17^th, 2013 at 8:23pm:

Postmodern Trendoid wrote on Oct 15^th, 2013 at 5:36pm:

Is our personal conscience really personal, or just forgotten internalised social mores?

Ie - are we free or not?

Free to do, whatever......... ???

I would imagine that a pride of lions, or, a pack of wolves, also have a set of developed social mores, within their 'societies' ?

A set of social mores, to suit each group ?

And what 'social mores' are appropriate for a society of human beings ?

"Right is only in question between equals, and while the strong do what they can, the weak suffer what they must."

Thucydides (460-400 B.C.) Greek Historian

???

Quote:

"......he who attempts to get another man into his absolute power does thereby put himself into a state of war with him;"

John Locke 1632-170

John Locke 1632-1704
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1242692863/0#0

???

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Winston Smith

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Re: Discussions on the question of personal conscienc
Reply #35 - Oct 17^th, 2013 at 11:26pm

Yadda wrote on Oct 17^th, 2013 at 10:13pm:

Winston Smith wrote on Oct 17^th, 2013 at 8:18pm:

Yadda wrote on Oct 16^th, 2013 at 10:00pm:

Yadda wrote on Oct 16^th, 2013 at 9:45pm:

Annie Anthrax wrote on Oct 15^th, 2013 at 8:52pm:

Postmodern Trendoid wrote on Oct 15^th, 2013 at 5:36pm:

Is our personal conscience really personal, or just forgotten internalised social mores?

Overwhelmingly the latter - at least for small matters of conscience.

That's my problem with the idea of sin and religious morals.

They arouse unnecessary feelings of guilt and shame.

Postmodern Trendoid wrote on Oct 16^th, 2013 at 11:32am:

Okay. Do you think that there's some other influence than introjected social mores?

Postmodern Trendoid,

When you say; "other influences", are you referring to the 'unnecessary feelings of guilt and shame', mentioned by Annie ?

And Annie,

If we actually do something wrong, is it then subsequently 'unnatural', for us to then have [to 'own'] 'feelings of guilt and shame' [if we have made a poor choice] ?

And if you believe that [stance], can you justify that stance ?

i.e.
Why shouldn't you be held to account, every time, that you make a poor choice ?

I'd like to play chess with you Annie, coz you would concede, the moment that you recognised that you had previously made some 'bad' moves.

That is correct, isn't it ?

That you are just a 'runner', 'away from' ?

[you can bite my head off, tis OK.]

Reinforce success, abandon failure. Military strategy 101.

No argument.

I would argue that it is also a good 'strategy', to apply to perceived merit.

i.e.
That is, if we desire/want a meritocracy ?

Can you fault a system of living that is [really] based upon meritocracy ?

p.s.
I would hope to see a 'meritocracy' that is based [graded] upon outcomes, not just based upon 'qualifications'.

I think 'meritocracy' is a complex human concept that has no real meaning in the physical or biological world. Some people might be good at doing stuff, others might be good at keeping them as slaves.

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Postmodern Trendoid Gold Member Offline International socialist Posts: 892 Gender:	Re: Discussions on the question of personal conscienc Reply #36 - Oct 18^th, 2013 at 6:19am Soren wrote on Oct 17^th, 2013 at 8:23pm: Postmodern Trendoid wrote on Oct 15^th, 2013 at 5:36pm: Is our personal conscience really personal, or just forgotten internalised social mores? Ie - are we free or not? Depends how you conceptualise freedom.
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Lord Herbert Gold Member Offline Posts: 34441 Gender:	Re: Discussions on the question of personal conscienc Reply #37 - Oct 18^th, 2013 at 7:13am Soren wrote on Oct 17^th, 2013 at 8:23pm: Postmodern Trendoid wrote on Oct 15^th, 2013 at 5:36pm: Is our personal conscience really personal, or just forgotten internalised social mores? Ie - are we free or not? B.F.Skinner leaps to mind. Enjoy...
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Yadda

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Re: Discussions on the question of personal conscienc
Reply #38 - Oct 18^th, 2013 at 8:06am

Yadda wrote on Oct 17^th, 2013 at 10:13pm:

Winston Smith wrote on Oct 17^th, 2013 at 8:18pm:

Reinforce success, abandon failure. Military strategy 101.

No argument.

I would argue that it is also a good 'strategy', to apply to perceived merit.

i.e.
That is, if we desire/want a meritocracy ?

Can you fault a system of living that is [really] based upon meritocracy ?

p.s.
I would hope to see a 'meritocracy' that is based [graded] upon outcomes, not just based upon 'qualifications'.

In proposing a 'meritocracy', i am not envisioning [or endorsing] a system [of government] which would 'abandon' the 'incapable'.

But i do favour a system [of government] that would give authority, to those who have demonstrated their capability [time and time again], to achieve good [beneficial] outcomes [for the larger group].

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Annie Anthrax

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Re: Discussions on the question of personal conscienc
Reply #39 - Oct 18^th, 2013 at 3:46pm

Soren wrote on Oct 17^th, 2013 at 8:34pm:

Annie Anthrax wrote on Oct 17^th, 2013 at 3:33pm:

Postmodern Trendoid wrote on Oct 16^th, 2013 at 11:31am:

Lionel Edriess wrote on Oct 15^th, 2013 at 9:14pm:

I would like to think that we, as individuals, have developed enough personal character to differentiate between what we consider 'conscience' and learned rules/acceptances of personal behaviour.

So the part of us that isn't learned behaviour is a biological inheritance?

Biological inheritance of the learned behaviour of our ancestors, perhaps, through the process of evolution.

Are you saying this or is this really your ancestor speaking through evolution?

I think evolution is hugely overestimated and overstated when it comes to our actual, personal lives (the only one we actually know and inhabit consciously). Nobody lives their personal lives along evolutionary lines, except total psycho- and sociopaths.

Religion, with all its pitfalls, is much more on a human scale, like a Renaissance Italian piazza, than evolution and all its grand boulevards ofimpersonal, concrete brutalism.
We cannot lead evolutionary lives.

Do you believe that there is no biological motivation for behaviour?

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Lord Herbert Gold Member Offline Posts: 34441 Gender:	Re: Discussions on the question of personal conscienc Reply #40 - Oct 18^th, 2013 at 4:19pm All behaviour is designed to serve the instinct for procreation ~ and then to protect and nurture the offspring thereafter.
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Chimp_Logic

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Re: Discussions on the question of personal conscienc
Reply #41 - Oct 20^th, 2013 at 8:47am

Lord Herbert wrote on Oct 18^th, 2013 at 4:19pm:

All behaviour is designed to serve the instinct for procreation ~ and then to protect and nurture the offspring thereafter.

this may be true, but it is an incomplete and simplistic picture

Your Darwinian distortion is a misinterpretation of not only what Darwin theorised about, but also how important collective behaviour and cooperation between and within species works to keep life as a whole vibrant and strong.

In fact, cooperation is more critical to life than Darwinian natural selective drivers (a notion that Darwin himself understood and recognised)

Unfortunately many modern economists and political tyrants often adopt this narrow Darwinian approach so as to justify their racist or other socio-political ideologies (see NAZIs and the current militaristic imperial Corporate USA - an elite form of fascism)

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Lord Herbert

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Re: Discussions on the question of personal conscienc
Reply #42 - Oct 20^th, 2013 at 11:17am

Chimp_Logic wrote on Oct 20^th, 2013 at 8:47am:

Lord Herbert wrote on Oct 18^th, 2013 at 4:19pm:

All behaviour is designed to serve the instinct for procreation ~ and then to protect and nurture the offspring thereafter.

this may be true, but it is an incomplete and simplistic picture

Your Darwinian distortion is a misinterpretation of not only what Darwin theorised about, but also how important collective behaviour and cooperation between and within species works to keep life as a whole vibrant and strong

.

I repeat: Everything in Nature is geared around procreation ~ and for my money that's one of Life's greatest mysteries :~ why?

Why does Nature want to reproduce into the future. Cui bono?

For the great majority in the Natural world the fact of being capable of reproducing offspring does not increase ones chances of survival.

In a limited way the Theory of Evolution explains the mechanics, but not the 'why'.

A butterfly produces a beautiful pattern and colouring to the underside of its wings which it can't even see ... From where did these designs originate?

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Postmodern Trendoid Gold Member Offline International socialist Posts: 892 Gender:	Re: Discussions on the question of personal conscienc Reply #43 - Oct 20^th, 2013 at 11:48am Reducing it solely to procreation doesn't account for some phenomena. While the sex drive can account for a lot of behaviour, what about behaviour that goes out of its way to destroy life? What about idle contemplation?
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Lord Herbert Gold Member Offline Posts: 34441 Gender:	Re: Discussions on the question of personal conscienc Reply #44 - Oct 20^th, 2013 at 12:06pm Postmodern Trendoid wrote on Oct 20^th, 2013 at 11:48am: what about behaviour that goes out of its way to destroy life? Give an example.
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