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Poll Poll
Question: How would you view Abbott acquiescing to ISDS

Good for business    
  2 (20.0%)
Foolish    
  2 (20.0%)
An act of treachery    
  6 (60.0%)




Total votes: 10
« Created by: MOTR on: Sep 21st, 2013 at 3:59pm »

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Abbott considers further treachery (ISDS) (Read 5661 times)
MOTR
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Re: Abbott considers further treachery (ISDS)
Reply #15 - Sep 21st, 2013 at 5:14pm
 
Andrei.Hicks wrote on Sep 21st, 2013 at 5:09pm:
I'm sorry you're wrong.

One of the most important fundamentals about global market capitalism - which we all agree is the only card game in town - is to continuously evolve.
A country remains competitive and attractive on the basis of its ability to satisfy the supply curve and its readiness to evolve and work with corporations.

We as an entity are a citizen. We are a corporate citizen with social aims to partake in society ethically.
It is right and fair that a corporation has the ability to take action to remedy a result stemming from what is believed to be an illegal and unjust action.

It's not about patriotism here. Corporate policies and actions in the global market transcend national boundary.


How much of the Kool Aid have you sucked down, Andrei? If they want legal remedy for a perceived injustice then they can seek it in Australian courts. What's your problem with that, Borg?
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Hunt says Coalition accepts IPCC findings

"What does this mean? It means that we need to do practical things that actually reduce emissions."
 
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Re: Abbott considers further treachery (ISDS)
Reply #16 - Sep 21st, 2013 at 5:29pm
 
You're going to have to walk me through the Borg reference there.

I'm a patriotic person as proud of my country as you but I also believe in corporate objectives.
I believe in what my company is trying to do - deliver energy to a growing population at a profit whilst behaving in an ethical manner.

Now is it right an Australian Government can just remove rebates on shale fracking and offshore deepdive drilling without even consultation?
No sorry. That needs challenging and corporations should be able to sue Governments for lost income or costing recoupment.
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Re: Abbott considers further treachery (ISDS)
Reply #17 - Sep 21st, 2013 at 5:39pm
 
Andrei.Hicks wrote on Sep 21st, 2013 at 5:10pm:
So I'll ask again, how come I am more inclined to give Abbott a chance and you have given him zero chance from day 1?!


Because you don't get how dangerous his policies are. However, what I think of the man is besides the point.

Quote:
Geneva, 7 Jun (Kanaga Raja) -- Investor-state dispute settlement under the proposed Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership (TTIP) between the European Union and the United States would empower EU and US-based corporations "to engage in litigious wars of attrition to limit the power of governments on both sides of the Atlantic," Corporate Europe Observatory (CEO) and the Transnational Institute (TNI) have warned.

In a new briefing paper titled "A Transatlantic Corporate Bill of Rights" released recently, CEO and TNI said that the tremendous volume of transatlantic investment, with both partners accounting for more than half of foreign direct investment in each others' economies, hints at the sheer scale of the risk of such litigation wars.

[The issue has figured at the US Senate confirmation hearing for USTR nominee Mike Froman, according to a post by Simon Lester at the IELP blog. According to the post, Sen. Sherrod Brown (a trade critic) asked at the hearing something along these lines: "Given that EU property rights protection is pretty good, do we need investor-state in the TTIP?" Mr. Froman's answer was basically, "we're still consulting on this and haven't made a decision." In follow-up questions, with Brown trying to prod Froman a bit on why investor-state was needed in this context, Froman responded with something like, "we need to be aware of what excluding investor-state in this agreement would mean for the system as a whole." - SUNS]

According to CEO and TNI, leaked draft versions of the EU negotiating mandate for the far-reaching free trade agreement with the US reveal the European Commission's plans to enshrine more powers for corporations in the deal.

The Commission's proposal for investor-state dispute settlement under the TTIP would enable US companies investing in Europe to skirt European courts and directly challenge EU governments at international tribunals, whenever they find that laws in the area of public health, environmental or social protection interfere with their profits. EU companies investing abroad would have the same privilege in the US, said the briefing paper.

In a press release accompanying the briefing paper, Cecilia Olivet from TNI said: "It is only a matter of time before European and US taxpayers start paying the costs. Not only will our money go to pay for expensive lawsuits that compensate big business, but we will also pay as critical environmental and social regulations and policies are dismantled to clear the way for corporate profiteering."


Pia Eberhardt of CEO, the report's author, said: "Politicians might think they are acting in the interests of ‘their' investors overseas, but they are in fact exposing themselves to predatory legal action from corporations. It is high time that Parliaments on both sides of the Atlantic grasp the political and financial risks of investor-state dispute settlement and axe plans for this looming transatlantic corporate bill of rights."



http://www.twnside.org.sg/title2/FTAs/info.service/2013/fta.info.252.htm

Quote:
CEO and TNI stress that it is "high time that governments and parliaments on both sides of the Atlantic grasp the political and financial risks of investor-state dispute settlement and axe the plans for this looming transatlantic corporate bill of rights. The European Parliament in particular should put a leash on the Commission which is obviously disregarding MEPs' call for ‘major changes' in the international investment regime."

"Why on earth should legislators grant business such a powerful tool to rein in democracy and curb sound policies made in the interest of the public," they ask.

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« Last Edit: Sep 21st, 2013 at 5:52pm by MOTR »  

Hunt says Coalition accepts IPCC findings

"What does this mean? It means that we need to do practical things that actually reduce emissions."
 
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Re: Abbott considers further treachery (ISDS)
Reply #18 - Sep 21st, 2013 at 5:54pm
 
Andrei.Hicks wrote on Sep 21st, 2013 at 5:29pm:
You're going to have to walk me through the Borg reference there.

I'm a patriotic person as proud of my country as you but I also believe in corporate objectives.
I believe in what my company is trying to do - deliver energy to a growing population at a profit whilst behaving in an ethical manner.

Now is it right an Australian Government can just remove rebates on shale fracking and offshore deepdive drilling without even consultation?
No sorry. That needs challenging and corporations should be able to sue Governments for lost income or costing recoupment.


They can sue them in Australian courts, Andrei. Have you got a problem with that.
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Hunt says Coalition accepts IPCC findings

"What does this mean? It means that we need to do practical things that actually reduce emissions."
 
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Re: Abbott considers further treachery (ISDS)
Reply #19 - Sep 21st, 2013 at 6:08pm
 
What you think of the man is besides the point??

It is the point entirely!!!

You've not given him a chance as PM, you run threads criticising Abbott and before the election you ran threads on how he shouldn't be PM.

I find the people on here - you included - who have started criticising from day 1 without even giving them a chance to be absurd.
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Re: Abbott considers further treachery (ISDS)
Reply #20 - Sep 21st, 2013 at 6:19pm
 
Andrei.Hicks wrote on Sep 21st, 2013 at 6:08pm:
What you think of the man is besides the point??

It is the point entirely!!!

You've not given him a chance as PM, you run threads criticising Abbott and before the election you ran threads on how he shouldn't be PM.

I find the people on here - you included - who have started criticising from day 1 without even giving them a chance to be absurd.


No good trying to save the eggs after they have been scrambled. If Tony is considering doing something stupid it's far better to stop him before he does it.

Now unless you can justify why international corporations need more rights than Australian businesses, I'll continue to campaign against this sort of treasonous stupidity.
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Hunt says Coalition accepts IPCC findings

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Re: Abbott considers further treachery (ISDS)
Reply #21 - Sep 21st, 2013 at 7:03pm
 
Quote:
If Tony is considering doing something stupid it's far better to stop him before he does it.


No. Let him go for it. It's much more fun that way.

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Re: Abbott considers further treachery (ISDS)
Reply #22 - Sep 21st, 2013 at 9:44pm
 
Andrei.Hicks wrote on Sep 21st, 2013 at 5:09pm:
... global market capitalism - which we all agree is the only card game in town - ...
No, we don't. Sorry to break it to you.

The Doctrine of Market Infallibility is canon to the faithful, but market capitalism is far from perfect and definitely not "the only card game in town". Experience shows that extremes fail. Investor-State Dispute Settlement is an extreme of market capitalism.
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Re: Abbott considers further treachery (ISDS)
Reply #23 - Sep 22nd, 2013 at 6:03am
 
MOTR wrote on Sep 21st, 2013 at 3:51pm:
While Howard had the good sense to preserve our sovereignty by rejecting the proposed ISDS provision in our free trade agreement with the United States (AUSFTA), it would seem Murdoch's lackey Abbott may have no such qualms. 

Quote:
What is the Investor-State Dispute Settlement, or ISDS?

What this arcane phrase refers to is the right of foreign companies to sue national governments of the signatory countries, not in domestic courts, but in opaque international forums, if they think some element of that government’s policy is harming their interests.

If a mining company, for example, is unhappy with environmental safeguards which inhibit its operations, if a pharmaceutical company is unhappy with the prices it gets for its drugs, if a chemical company is upset with the banning of an agricultural pesticide, if a tobacco company does not like laws restricting cigarette sales, ISDS provisions in trade agreements give them the means to challenge government policy and to seek compensation.

And they do this increasingly often, sometimes claiming enormous amounts of money. According to a report in May 2013 by the United Nations Conference on Trade and Development, which monitors these things, a record 58 ISDS cases were begun in 2012. In the same year, decisions were made on 42 cases by an assortment of more or less credible international arbiters. Only 31 of these were publicly disclosed, but of those, 70 per cent went in favour of the corporations, at least in part; and nine resulted in significant awards for damages, including one – to an oil company which sued Ecuador – for a record US$1.77 billion.


http://www.theglobalmail.org/feature/abbott-open-for-business-and-multinational-...


Will aussie companies be able to sue america if their laws impinge on their business? Is it reciprocal?

SOB

...
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Re: Abbott considers further treachery (ISDS)
Reply #24 - Sep 22nd, 2013 at 6:05am
 
Andrei.Hicks wrote on Sep 21st, 2013 at 4:49pm:
My opinion?

The ability of us as a corporate entity to challenge Government decisions is paramount to a successful capitalist global economy.

We are bigger than countries. We deserve the ability to challenge.

Ill take an example we have had.
In Australia the previous Government went back on its agreement with the energy industry - of which we are a significant player - to subsidise the R&D costs on shale fracking process refinement and also to assist in upstream delivery refinement on deepdive offshore drilling.

In one swoop they acted - without consultation to industry or at least the likes of ourselves or Exxon, Chevron or Texaco and remove the entire rebate scheme.
This could and should be able to be challenged because it puts us out of pocket to the tune of $600m+.

Now why should corporate entities not challenge legally decisions taken that we believe are wrong?

It has nothing to do with patriotism.

I have as much loyalty to Australia as the rest of you guys.


Hangon. You are out of pocket the free money from the government?

SOB

...
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Re: Abbott considers further treachery (ISDS)
Reply #25 - Sep 22nd, 2013 at 6:09am
 
Andrei.Hicks wrote on Sep 21st, 2013 at 6:08pm:
What you think of the man is besides the point??

It is the point entirely!!!

You've not given him a chance as PM, you run threads criticising Abbott and before the election you ran threads on how he shouldn't be PM.

I find the people on here - you included - who have started criticising from day 1 without even giving them a chance to be absurd.


Give him a chance? WTF? He has been in govt for several days and already he has done bad things
(like not appoint a science minister etc) and yet you say "give him a chance"? He is using that chance right now and taking advantage of it.

SOB

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Re: Abbott considers further treachery (ISDS)
Reply #26 - Sep 22nd, 2013 at 9:33am
 
Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Sep 22nd, 2013 at 6:03am:
...
Will aussie companies be able to sue america if their laws impinge on their business? Is it reciprocal?
...

In theory, yes. In practice, it has been found to favour business over nations other than the US.

Investor-State Dispute Settlement is, I gather, based on model legislation crafted by the American Legislative Exchange Council. It is intentionally calculated to be hostile to any and all interests but those of business. The Americans have added a few refinements to favour the US over other nations, but it's still business über alles.
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Re: Abbott considers further treachery (ISDS)
Reply #27 - Sep 22nd, 2013 at 10:01am
 
MOTR wrote on Sep 21st, 2013 at 4:25pm:
cods wrote on Sep 21st, 2013 at 4:13pm:
dont think anyones interested MOTR wiseones already tried to capture our imagination with this same one...zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz


which thread?

So Howard was wrong and Abbott is right to reconsider including ISDS clauses in our free trade agreements?

What's your reasoning, cods?



http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1379720703
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Re: Abbott considers further treachery (ISDS)
Reply #28 - Sep 22nd, 2013 at 7:04pm
 
Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Sep 22nd, 2013 at 6:05am:
Andrei.Hicks wrote on Sep 21st, 2013 at 4:49pm:
My opinion?

The ability of us as a corporate entity to challenge Government decisions is paramount to a successful capitalist global economy.

We are bigger than countries. We deserve the ability to challenge.

Ill take an example we have had.
In Australia the previous Government went back on its agreement with the energy industry - of which we are a significant player - to subsidise the R&D costs on shale fracking process refinement and also to assist in upstream delivery refinement on deepdive offshore drilling.

In one swoop they acted - without consultation to industry or at least the likes of ourselves or Exxon, Chevron or Texaco and remove the entire rebate scheme.
This could and should be able to be challenged because it puts us out of pocket to the tune of $600m+.

Now why should corporate entities not challenge legally decisions taken that we believe are wrong?

It has nothing to do with patriotism.

I have as much loyalty to Australia as the rest of you guys.


Hangon. You are out of pocket the free money from the government?

SOB

http://spotofborg.com/files/persecution5.jpg


No.
The Government changed the rules with zero consultation with industry.

Given shale gas fracking is in the interests of Australians and refinement of the process is in everyone's interests hence it's fair that a proportion of the capital costs of projects to improve are picked up by the Government through a reduced tax liability for us.
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Re: Abbott considers further treachery (ISDS)
Reply #29 - Sep 22nd, 2013 at 7:13pm
 
MOTR wrote on Sep 21st, 2013 at 5:54pm:
Andrei.Hicks wrote on Sep 21st, 2013 at 5:29pm:
You're going to have to walk me through the Borg reference there.

I'm a patriotic person as proud of my country as you but I also believe in corporate objectives.
I believe in what my company is trying to do - deliver energy to a growing population at a profit whilst behaving in an ethical manner.

Now is it right an Australian Government can just remove rebates on shale fracking and offshore deepdive drilling without even consultation?
No sorry. That needs challenging and corporations should be able to sue Governments for lost income or costing recoupment.


They can sue them in Australian courts, Andrei. Have you got a problem with that.


Andrei?
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Hunt says Coalition accepts IPCC findings

"What does this mean? It means that we need to do practical things that actually reduce emissions."
 
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