Australian Politics Forum - The Evolution of Islam

Avram Horowitz

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Re: The Evolution of Islam
Reply #210 - Jun 30^th, 2013 at 10:31am

Karnal don't think we sit in ignorance on Arabs.

You know before service duty begins. You must spend weeks of classes on Arabic, Arab culture, Arab history, Arab mind sets.
It is the Israeli "Know your enemy".

So not only at car checkpoints can I understand every word they are saying to each other but I know how it is they are viewed in Egypt, Jordan, Iraq etc.

Look at Syria this gives you an idea now of how the Arabs view each other.

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Karnal

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Re: The Evolution of Islam
Reply #211 - Jun 30^th, 2013 at 10:35am

Avram Horowitz wrote on Jun 30^th, 2013 at 9:56am:

Karnal wrote on Jun 30^th, 2013 at 1:13am:

Avram Horowitz wrote on Jun 30^th, 2013 at 1:00am:

Karnal this style of response does not help.

Soren does make some valid comments about Arabs are better treated in Israel than in Saudi or Jordan..

That is most likely true, but I can’t imagine Saudi or Jordanian land owners having their property confiscated by the state, or being treated as second class citizens if they live in certain zones.

Can you?

I don't need to imagine I know so.
You know what Jordanians, Saudis, Kuwaitis think of Palestinians??

Absolutely second class citizens.

Why you think they are so slow to provide help?
Why does Jordan keep them in refugee camps and not allow full entry?

In the Arab caste system where Kuwaitis are highest, Palestinians are very low.

And Israel’s a great example of "full entry" for Arabs isn’t it. You don’t think Jews have the same ideas of status and class among Jews? Look at the way Israelis look upon Russians.

There is a clear caste system among Jews with Amerikan and European Jews at the top and Russian and African Jews at the bottom.

Comparing Israel to Saudi Arabia is game over.

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Big Dave

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Re: The Evolution of Islam
Reply #212 - Jun 30^th, 2013 at 10:40am

Karnal wrote on Jun 30^th, 2013 at 10:35am:

Avram Horowitz wrote on Jun 30^th, 2013 at 9:56am:

Karnal wrote on Jun 30^th, 2013 at 1:13am:

Avram Horowitz wrote on Jun 30^th, 2013 at 1:00am:

Karnal this style of response does not help.

Soren does make some valid comments about Arabs are better treated in Israel than in Saudi or Jordan..

That is most likely true, but I can’t imagine Saudi or Jordanian land owners having their property confiscated by the state, or being treated as second class citizens if they live in certain zones.

Can you?

I don't need to imagine I know so.
You know what Jordanians, Saudis, Kuwaitis think of Palestinians??

Absolutely second class citizens.

Why you think they are so slow to provide help?
Why does Jordan keep them in refugee camps and not allow full entry?

In the Arab caste system where Kuwaitis are highest, Palestinians are very low.

And Israel’s a great example of "full entry", isn’t it. You don’t think Jews have the same ideas of status and class?

Now I know you’re dreaming.

Comparing Israel to Saudi Arabia is game over.

The way you go on about bogans and Rooty Hill makes me realise that you definitely have certain ideas on class and status.

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Soren

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Re: The Evolution of Islam
Reply #213 - Jun 30^th, 2013 at 10:40am

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 30^th, 2013 at 12:15am:

Honestly I don't know where all this hostility comes from Soren. And why do you have to always turn every issue into an issue about me?

People all over the world are interested in, and debate topics that have no direct relation to their personal lives - often on the other side of the world. Why do you have a problem with this when it is done by an Australian muslim? What possibly motivates you to lash out and tell them they should 'bugger off to [the place in question] if you love it so much' and turn what could be a constructive discussion into a personal attack?

I came here to discuss ideas, not attack personalities. I understand that as the only muslim here I will be targeted by critics of islam, and thats fine - but attacking me for who I am, as opposed to what I bring to the discussions - which you and Yadda are especially prone to doing - just makes you look like bigots, and certainly ruins any chance of constructive dialogue.

In a nutshell: I think Islamic ideology is dangerous and should not be given a free pass. It is destructive and it stands for everything I am against - barbarity, stupidity, oppression. It doesn't merit politeness.

The longer version: Muslims like you are trapped by that ideology on the one hand and the very obvious freedoms and opportunities the West gives you, on the other. And when there is any kind of conflict between the two you start agitating against where you live and for the places and ideologies where you do not actually want to be (because you would be there is you really wanted it.)

Debate around Israel just bring this into sharp focus but this conflict in your actual deeds and what you speak for is present in everything. Islam has made you and people like you into hypocrites with no way out of it except apostasy, but you are not ready for that.

On the topic of Israel - is the Arabs had accepted Israel's existence, there would be no war, and so no need for Israel to defend itself. If the Arabs worked with Israel, they wouldn't be so poor and backward.But Koranic hatred doesn't permit it. Just so it is clear - the Arabs do not accept Israel because of the Koran. It's Al Andalus (once Muslim, always Muslim) + Jews = Islamically totally unacceptable.

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Karnal

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Re: The Evolution of Islam
Reply #214 - Jun 30^th, 2013 at 10:42am

Big Dave wrote on Jun 30^th, 2013 at 10:40am:

Karnal wrote on Jun 30^th, 2013 at 10:35am:

Avram Horowitz wrote on Jun 30^th, 2013 at 9:56am:

Karnal wrote on Jun 30^th, 2013 at 1:13am:

Avram Horowitz wrote on Jun 30^th, 2013 at 1:00am:

Karnal this style of response does not help.

Soren does make some valid comments about Arabs are better treated in Israel than in Saudi or Jordan..

That is most likely true, but I can’t imagine Saudi or Jordanian land owners having their property confiscated by the state, or being treated as second class citizens if they live in certain zones.

Can you?

I don't need to imagine I know so.
You know what Jordanians, Saudis, Kuwaitis think of Palestinians??

Absolutely second class citizens.

Why you think they are so slow to provide help?
Why does Jordan keep them in refugee camps and not allow full entry?

In the Arab caste system where Kuwaitis are highest, Palestinians are very low.

And Israel’s a great example of "full entry", isn’t it. You don’t think Jews have the same ideas of status and class?

Now I know you’re dreaming.

Comparing Israel to Saudi Arabia is game over.

The way you go on about bogans and Rooty Hill makes me realise that you definitely have certain ideas on class and status.

You must have me confused with someone else, Big Dave.

I grew up in Roti Hill.

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shockresist

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Re: The Evolution of Islam
Reply #215 - Jun 30^th, 2013 at 10:47am

Avram Horowitz wrote on Jun 30^th, 2013 at 9:53am:

I know that report.

The bridge was showed to be being used to transport rockets down to a zone to reach Israel.

This is why the IAF destroyed it.

Yeah you probably blew it up to.

How can weapons be transported over the bridge and from where?

Mina/Tripoli and junior don't support hizbuallah, so how can weapons be coming from there?

Hizbuallah is in the south, the weapons are only there.

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Avram Horowitz

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Re: The Evolution of Islam
Reply #216 - Jun 30^th, 2013 at 10:59am

I didn't blow up anything, I am Army not IAF.

But with Hizbullah they have support in pockets across the Lebanon including Beirut.
These rockets they fire are provided by Iran and transported across differing ways.

The bridges and supply routes, it is the Mossad on the ground who provide the information and then the IAF are instructed to target remove.

But you know very well the difference in us and them.

Israeli rules of engagement insist upon minimisation of casualty and of civilians injuries.

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Avram Horowitz

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Re: The Evolution of Islam
Reply #217 - Jun 30^th, 2013 at 11:04am

Karnal wrote on Jun 30^th, 2013 at 10:35am:

Avram Horowitz wrote on Jun 30^th, 2013 at 9:56am:

Karnal wrote on Jun 30^th, 2013 at 1:13am:

Avram Horowitz wrote on Jun 30^th, 2013 at 1:00am:

Karnal this style of response does not help.

Soren does make some valid comments about Arabs are better treated in Israel than in Saudi or Jordan..

That is most likely true, but I can’t imagine Saudi or Jordanian land owners having their property confiscated by the state, or being treated as second class citizens if they live in certain zones.

Can you?

I don't need to imagine I know so.
You know what Jordanians, Saudis, Kuwaitis think of Palestinians??

Absolutely second class citizens.

Why you think they are so slow to provide help?
Why does Jordan keep them in refugee camps and not allow full entry?

In the Arab caste system where Kuwaitis are highest, Palestinians are very low.

And Israel’s a great example of "full entry" for Arabs isn’t it. You don’t think Jews have the same ideas of status and class among Jews? Look at the way Israelis look upon Russians.

There is a clear caste system among Jews with Amerikan and European Jews at the top and Russian and African Jews at the bottom.

Comparing Israel to Saudi Arabia is game over.

What you speak of is a unofficial society viewpoint in Israel
Not unlike I see here where you look on people with no money or no class as not worthy.

In Israel we have orthodox and secular Jews. That's the only official differences.
We don't have official castes like the Russians and Ethiopians Jews.
There is a Moscow Jew 2 houses from me in Haifa. He has same rights as me.

The Arabs though operate full caste and Palestinians are scum to them.
No different or much higher than a Filipino.

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Karnal

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Re: The Evolution of Islam
Reply #218 - Jun 30^th, 2013 at 11:07am

Soren wrote on Jun 30^th, 2013 at 10:40am:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 30^th, 2013 at 12:15am:

Honestly I don't know where all this hostility comes from Soren. And why do you have to always turn every issue into an issue about me?

People all over the world are interested in, and debate topics that have no direct relation to their personal lives - often on the other side of the world. Why do you have a problem with this when it is done by an Australian muslim? What possibly motivates you to lash out and tell them they should 'bugger off to [the place in question] if you love it so much' and turn what could be a constructive discussion into a personal attack?

I came here to discuss ideas, not attack personalities. I understand that as the only muslim here I will be targeted by critics of islam, and thats fine - but attacking me for who I am, as opposed to what I bring to the discussions - which you and Yadda are especially prone to doing - just makes you look like bigots, and certainly ruins any chance of constructive dialogue.

In a nutshell: I think Islamic ideology is dangerous and should not be given a free pass. It is destructive and it stands for everything I am against - barbarity, stupidity, oppression. It doesn't merit politeness.

The longer version: Muslims like you are trapped by that ideology on the one hand and the very obvious freedoms and opportunities the West gives you, on the other. And when there is any kind of conflict between the two you start agitating against where you live and for the places and ideologies where you do not actually want to be (because you would be there is you really wanted it.)

Debate around Israel just bring this into sharp focus but this conflict in your actual deeds and what you speak for is present in everything. Islam has made you and people like you into hypocrites with no way out of it except apostasy, but you are not ready for that.

On the topic of Israel - is the Arabs had accepted Israel's existence, there would be no war, and so no need for Israel to defend itself. If the Arabs worked with Israel, they wouldn't be so poor and backward.But Koranic hatred doesn't permit it. Just so it is clear - the Arabs do not accept Israel because of the Koran. It's Al Andalus (once Muslim, always Muslim) + Jews = Islamically totally unacceptable.

Never ever. Ever. On stilts.

Good argument, old chap. If they could just turn off the Muselman gene, everything would be ship-shape, eh?

Marvellous stuff.

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Karnal

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Re: The Evolution of Islam
Reply #219 - Jun 30^th, 2013 at 11:13am

Avram Horowitz wrote on Jun 30^th, 2013 at 11:04am:

Karnal wrote on Jun 30^th, 2013 at 10:35am:

Avram Horowitz wrote on Jun 30^th, 2013 at 9:56am:

Karnal wrote on Jun 30^th, 2013 at 1:13am:

Avram Horowitz wrote on Jun 30^th, 2013 at 1:00am:

Karnal this style of response does not help.

Soren does make some valid comments about Arabs are better treated in Israel than in Saudi or Jordan..

That is most likely true, but I can’t imagine Saudi or Jordanian land owners having their property confiscated by the state, or being treated as second class citizens if they live in certain zones.

Can you?

I don't need to imagine I know so.
You know what Jordanians, Saudis, Kuwaitis think of Palestinians??

Absolutely second class citizens.

Why you think they are so slow to provide help?
Why does Jordan keep them in refugee camps and not allow full entry?

In the Arab caste system where Kuwaitis are highest, Palestinians are very low.

And Israel’s a great example of "full entry" for Arabs isn’t it. You don’t think Jews have the same ideas of status and class among Jews? Look at the way Israelis look upon Russians.

There is a clear caste system among Jews with Amerikan and European Jews at the top and Russian and African Jews at the bottom.

Comparing Israel to Saudi Arabia is game over.

What you speak of is a unofficial society viewpoint in Israel
Not unlike I see here where you look on people with no money or no class as not worthy.

In Israel we have orthodox and secular Jews. That's the only official differences.
We don't have official castes like the Russians and Ethiopians Jews.
There is a Moscow Jew 2 houses from me in Haifa. He has same rights as me.

The Arabs though operate full caste and Palestinians are scum to them.
No different or much higher than a Filipino.

So you’re saying Arab countries have official government policies discriminating against other Arabs, are you, Avram?

Do Arabs and Jews in Golan Heights have the same rights?

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shockresist

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Re: The Evolution of Islam
Reply #220 - Jun 30^th, 2013 at 11:28am

Avram Horowitz wrote on Jun 30^th, 2013 at 10:59am:

I didn't blow up anything, I am Army not IAF.

But with Hizbullah they have support in pockets across the Lebanon including Beirut.
These rockets they fire are provided by Iran and transported across differing ways.

The bridges and supply routes, it is the Mossad on the ground who provide the information and then the IAF are instructed to target remove.

But you know very well the difference in us and them.

Israeli rules of engagement insist upon minimisation of casualty and of civilians injuries.

Jews always has excuse for everything.

You bomb a arab house-You claim hamas member in there.

You blow up car-Hamas in there.

You break into arab homes and interrogate the kids.They one day may become hamas supporters.

You blow up a school-terror sympathisers in there.

You steal Australian passports, steal peoples land, you even killed Americans in the bombing of the liberty ship.

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Avram Horowitz

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Re: The Evolution of Islam
Reply #221 - Jun 30^th, 2013 at 11:55am

In the Golan when administration of Israeli law passed over to Israel from the army control, the Arabs had offers to be full rights citizens.
They refused and so are not citizens.

The Jews are citizens.

So to answer you Karnal, no they do not have same rights but this is their fault.

They have to understand that Golan is staying with Israel.
It is not going to be handed back.

So they make their choice.

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Yadda

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Re: The Evolution of Islam
Reply #222 - Jun 30^th, 2013 at 12:24pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 29^th, 2013 at 2:10pm:

Yadda wrote on Jun 29^th, 2013 at 1:12pm:

But your analogy does not make a valid argument/sense, because you have an illogical and irrational moslem perception of the world - a perception which only ever takes account of circumstances from a blinkered point of view.

And thats the only reason its not valid? So can you imagine it was made by a logical and rational non-muslim? Would that magically make it valid?

Or are there other reasons it is invalid? If so what?

The invalid argument which gandalf and all ISLAMISTS 'project' [about the conflict in the M.E.], is that the 'Palestinian' people are struggling to regain their homeland - a homeland that is, and was, stolen from the 'Palestinian' people by those nasty, blood sucking, baby murdering, Zionists.

And that, is a DELIBERATELY false argument.

It is a false argument because those persons who refer to themselves as the 'Palestinian' people, already have a homeland.

The homeland of the 'Palestinian' people is called Jordan.

The truth is that the 'Palestinian' struggle, is predicated upon achieving just one objective;

1/ To secure the homeland of 'Palestinian' people ?

2/ To achieve the destruction of the State of Israel ?

Only one of those two objectives that i have just offered, has any rational credibility.

Which do you think that it is gandalf, 1/ OR 2/ ?

The absolute truth

about the 'Palestinian' struggle, is that the 'Palestinian' people are not 'struggling' for justice for themselves, but that the 'Palestinians' are engaged in a supremacist war, on behalf of ISLAM.

The struggle of the 'Palestinian' people [against the State of Israel, and the Jewish people] is a proxy war [being conducted, by ISLAMISTS], on behalf of [worldwide] ISLAM.

And the objective of the 'Palestinian' 'struggle' is - NOT to secure a homeland for the 'Palestinian' people - BUT rather cynically, the struggle of the ISLAMISTS [who pretend to be 'Palestinians'], is designed to deny another group of people, their legitimate homeland.

ONCE MORE;
The homeland of the 'Palestinian' people is called Jordan.

The legitimate homeland of the Jewish people is the land of Israel.

The truth is that 'Palestinians' already have their own 'homeland', but not content with just their own lands, the 'Palestinians' ALSO want the land that belongs to the Jewish people - because the 'religious' doctrines of ISLAM demand, that no independent, un-ISLAMIC entity, must be permitted to exist in its midst.

IMAGE

THE TRUTH;
Even though ISRAEL, is the ancient and the only homeland of the Jewish people....

.....the ISLAMISTS throughout the region have declared time and time again, that there is not enough room in the Middle East for a non-moslem entity.

ISLAM and moslems have control of the vast majority of all of the land in the Middle East, but ISLAM refuses to allow any sovereign, non-moslem entity, to exist along side them there.

And all of the conflicts [throughout the region] are being fuelled by moslem religious bigotry, caused by the adherents of ISLAM.

Where those moslems are 'righteously' murdering others [moslems and non-moslems] who do not believe as they believe.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Karnal

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Re: The Evolution of Islam
Reply #223 - Jun 30^th, 2013 at 12:30pm

Avram Horowitz wrote on Jun 30^th, 2013 at 11:55am:

In the Golan when administration of Israeli law passed over to Israel from the army control, the Arabs had offers to be full rights citizens.
They refused and so are not citizens.

The Jews are citizens.

So to answer you Karnal, no they do not have same rights but this is their fault.

They have to understand that Golan is staying with Israel.
It is not going to be handed back.

So they make their choice.

It’s not Israeli land. This is the way the UN sees it, the White House sees it, the Council of Arab States sees it, and how a huge cross-section of Israelis see it too.

This land was seized in 1967. Essentially, you’re saying the rest of the world has to acccept theft - and the precedent of theft in international law.

Saddam used it in Kuwait, China mentions it when Tibet is raised, and Muslim states around the world use it as a genuine (or confected) dispute with Israel.

Israeli occupation causes Israel no end of grief. You know this - you’ve been forced to secure these areas.

They make their choice. And Israel makes a choice too.

From an international point of view, this choice should not be granted - to any country. Australia was recently involved in kicking Indonesia out of East Timor. The UN ruled, and justice was done.

Israel is no different, Y’s theories of the apocalypse notwithstanding.

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Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 98431	Re: The Evolution of Islam Reply #224 - Jun 30^th, 2013 at 12:38pm Y’s mention of absolute truth always weakens the argument. It’s the old boy’s never ever. This is the language of fanatics. Whenever they use it, people stop listening. It’s the language of the marauding barbarian.
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