Australian Politics Forum - Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?

Karnal

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #405 - Jun 9^th, 2013 at 12:45pm

Soren wrote on Jun 9^th, 2013 at 12:19pm:

Charity and hospitality towards other Muslims, not towards the kuffar. The Koran is not about universal brotherhood but only about Muslim Brotherhood.

Charity and hospitality to strangers. It’s why Muslims from Bedouins to Pashtuns to Persians will offer travellers comfort and protection - often going to great lengths to do so for no reward. If you have never been treated with such kindness by a stranger, I wouldn’t expect you to understand.

The thing is though, what is the purpose of forums like this? To reinforce our own prejudice, or seek to understand?

The Koran is largely about Muslim brotherhood, true. But is also about brotherhood with the other Abrahamic religions, as it says.

Y can find the quotes.

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Yadda

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #406 - Jun 9^th, 2013 at 1:09pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 9^th, 2013 at 11:41am:

Yadda wrote on Jun 9^th, 2013 at 12:06am:

Point me to those verses, K.

You can't.

Because there are none.

There are no verses in the Koran, encouraging hospitality or friendship towards people who are identified as 'disbelievers' or non-moslems.

Prove me wrong.

quran 60:8-9

Koran 60.7-9 is hardly a ringing endorsement of Allah's mercy and tolerance towards disbelievers.

"It may be that Allah will grant love (and friendship) between you and those whom ye (now) hold as enemies. For Allah has power (over all things); And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
Allah forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for Allah loveth those who are just.
Allah only forbids you, with regard to those who fight you for (your) Faith, and drive you out of your homes, and support (others) in driving you out, from turning to them (for friendship and protection). It is such as turn to them (in these circumstances), that do wrong."
Koran 60.7-9

Koran 60.7-9 states that Allah allows moslems to not fight those who allow moslems to overwhelm them, and their society.

!!!!

But those persons would then be a subjugated [enslaved] people - under the authority of the moslems.

THE TRUTH;
Those that may warrant some mercy [kindness] from moslems, are ONLY those persons that are willing to enslave themselves, and submit themselves to ISLAM's authority over their lives.

So, no change in the 3 options offered to non-moslems, by moslems;

1/ Surrender to moslems - Convert to ISLAM.
2/ Surrender to moslems - and live as slaves under moslem political rule [surrendering all of their current rights and freedoms].
3/ Death - at the hands of moslem Jihadi

Being cited.....

e.g. #1

Creed of the sword
September 23, 2006
...the Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia, Sheikh Abdel Aziz al-Sheikh.
...Saudi Arabia's most senior cleric also explained that war was never Islam's ancient founder, the prophet Mohammed's, first choice: "He gave three options: either accept Islam, or surrender and pay tax, and they will be allowed to remain in their land, observing their religion under the protection of Muslims." Thus, according to the Grand Mufti, THE THIRD OPTION OF VIOLENCE AGAINST NON-MUSLIMS WAS ONLY A LAST RESORT, IF THEY REFUSED TO CONVERT OR SURRENDER PEACEFULLY TO THE ARMIES OF ISLAM.
...The resulting doctrine of war was described by the great medieval philosopher Ibn Khaldun: "In the Muslim community, the holy war (jihad) is a religious duty, because of the universalism of the (Muslim) mission and the (obligation to) convert everybody to Islam either by persuasion or by force." (The Muqaddimah)

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/creed-of-the-sword/story-e6frg6n6-111111225...

e.g. #2

June 26, 2006
The roots of Islamism
".....Islamists believe in the re-ordering of society to secure total submission to a narrow, puritan and fundamentalist interpretation of Islam......
That cleansing process must be accomplished by suicidal violence, because, in the words of Islamism's most influential thinker, Sayyid Qutb, "the death of those who are killed for the cause of God gives more impetus to the cause, which continues to thrive on their blood.".....

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/michael_gove/article679544.e...

e.g. #3

Pakistani cleric: 'We want Islamic law for all Pakistan and then the world. We would like to do this by preaching. But if not then we would use force.'

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2007/12/pakistani-cleric-we-want-islamic-law-for-all-p...i

Wahhabism
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1325509487/12#12

does Islam equate sex and rape?
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1330935607/60#60
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1330935607/68#68

+++

'But those persons would then be a subjugated [enslaved] people - under the authority of the moslems.'

Romans 6:16
Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

2 Peter 2:19
While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.

Luke 9:24
For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.

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« Last Edit: Jun 9^th, 2013 at 1:16pm by Yadda »

"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Yadda

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #407 - Jun 9^th, 2013 at 1:56pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 9^th, 2013 at 11:41am:

Yadda wrote on Jun 9^th, 2013 at 12:06am:

Point me to those verses, K.

You can't.

Because there are none.

There are no verses in the Koran, encouraging hospitality or friendship towards people who are identified as 'disbelievers' or non-moslems.

Prove me wrong.

quran 60:8-9

The best that the Koran can offer as an example of Allah's mercy and tolerance towards disbelievers is this......

"It may be that Allah will grant love (and friendship) between you and those whom ye (now) hold as enemies. For Allah has power (over all things); And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
Allah forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for Allah loveth those who are just.
Allah only forbids you, with regard to those who fight you for (your) Faith, and drive you out of your homes, and support (others) in driving you out, from turning to them (for friendship and protection). It is such as turn to them (in these circumstances), that do wrong."
Koran 60.7-9

And then there is this....

"......the curse of Allah is on those without Faith."
Koran 2.089

"....Lo! Allah is an enemy to those who reject Faith."
Koran 2.98

"....those who reject Allah have no protector."
Koran 47.008
v. 8-11

"Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves....."
Koran 48.29

and.....

Dictionary;

ummah = = the whole community of Muslims bound together by ties of religion.

and.....

"Muslims are one ummah (community) to the exclusion of all men. Believers are friends of one another to the exclusion of all outsiders."
Ishaq:231i

THERE IS NO MORAL EQUIVALENCE BETWEEN CHRISTIANITY [with Judaism], AND ISLAM;
FROM THE O.T. BIBLE...

Exodus 12:49
One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.

Exodus 22:21
Thou shalt neither vex a stranger, nor oppress him...

Exodus 23:9
Also thou shalt not oppress a stranger...

Leviticus 19:33
And if a stranger sojourn with thee in your land, ye shall not vex him.
34 But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself...

n.b.
.....and thou shalt love him as thyself

Leviticus 25:47-49
[these verses clearly speak of [and reveal that it was entirely 'lawful'] for Hebrews [themselves] to become bond servants [slaves], to prosperous strangers living among the Hebrews.]

Deuteronomy 1:16
And I charged your judges at that time, saying, Hear the causes between your brethren, and judge righteously between every man and his brother, and the stranger that is with him.

Deuteronomy 10:17-19
For the LORD your God... loveth the stranger, ...Love ye therefore the stranger:
for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.

Deuteronomy 24:17
Thou shalt not pervert the judgment of the stranger, nor of the fatherless; nor take a widow's raiment to pledge:
18 But thou shalt remember that thou wast a bondman in Egypt, and the LORD thy God redeemed thee thence: therefore I command thee to do this thing.

Deuteronomy 27:19
Cursed be he that perverteth the judgment of the stranger...

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 98421	Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism? Reply #408 - Jun 9^th, 2013 at 2:01pm Y, you just post the same Jihadwatch quotes every day. Are these alms for the poor?
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alikhan0 New Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 2 Gender:	Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism? Reply #409 - Jun 9^th, 2013 at 2:04pm Hi Dear Do any search on muslim organisations that represent mainstream islam in Australia, UK and the US - and just about anywhere else, you will see that the message is consistent: extremism and violence in the name of islam is rejected and condemned. Thanks!
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Karnal

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #410 - Jun 9^th, 2013 at 2:19pm

alikhan0 wrote on Jun 9^th, 2013 at 2:04pm:

Hi Dear

Do any search on muslim organisations that represent mainstream islam in Australia, UK and the US - and just about anywhere else, you will see that the message is consistent: extremism and violence in the name of islam is rejected and condemned.

Thanks!

Yes, dear, it’s strange how the knuckleheads are constantly blaming the texts and the religious leaders - as if Islam is a hegemonic, top-down cult.

In actual fact, the religious leaders are very concilliatory. They’re desperate to fit into Australian society and present Muslims - and Islam - as worthy.

The Muslim ratbags organise themselves on the web. The damage they do to the brand causes no end of trouble for the imams.

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Yadda

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #411 - Jun 9^th, 2013 at 3:00pm

alikhan0 wrote on Jun 9^th, 2013 at 2:04pm:

Hi Dear

Do any search on muslim organisations that represent mainstream islam in Australia, UK and the US - and just about anywhere else, you will see that the message is consistent: extremism and violence in the name of islam is rejected and condemned.

Thanks!

Hello 'dear',

Yes, that trick used to work,

until we discovered that all moslems are inveterate liars and deceivers.

All moslems are inveterate liars and deceivers.

All moslems are inveterate liars and deceivers.

All moslems are inveterate liars and deceivers.

Got the message, 'dear' ?

LYING DECEITFUL 'MAINSTREAM' MOSLEM COMMUNITY, are using sophistry to deceive local non-moslem host communities....

EXAMPLE #1,

The muslim council of Britain - the umbrella organisation representing all British muslims - condemning extremism and moslem violence....

Quote:

Rejecting Terror
Thursday, 11 April 2013

Muslims everywhere consider all acts of terrorism that aims to murder and maim innocent human beings utterly reprehensible and abhorrent. There is no theological basis whatsoever for such acts in our faith. The very meaning of the word 'Islam' is peace. It rejects terror and promotes peace and harmony.

http://www.mcb.org.uk/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2307:mcbnewst...
http://www.mcb.org.uk/article_detail.php?article=announcement-656

FROM ISLAM'S PRIMARY THEOLOGICAL TEXT.....

"O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty (unto Him)."
Koran 9.123

"Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain:...."
Koran 9.111iEXAMPLE #2,

Speaking in the UK, publicly, AND THEN PRIVATELY, regarding the London 7/7 bombing victims.

Quote:

"......In public interviews Bakri condemned the killing of all innocent civilians.

Later when he addressed his own followers he explained that he had in fact been referring only to Muslims as only they were innocent:

Yes I condemn killing any innocent people, but not any kuffar."

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-1724541,00.html

EXAMPLE #3,

as per that argument, that is revealed by this moslem scholar......

Quote:

Live in peace till strong enough to wage jihad, says UK Deoband scholar to Muslims
London, Sept.8 [2007]
A Deobandi scholar believes Muslims should preach peace till they are strong enough to undertake a jihad, or a holy war.
Justice Muhammad Taqi Usmani was quoted by the BBC as saying that Muslims should live peacefully in countries such as Britain, where they have the freedom to practise Islam, only until they gain enough power to engage in battle.
A former Sharia judge in Pakistan's Supreme Court, 64-year-old Usmani, is...a regular visitor to Britain.
Polite and softly spoken....
He agreed that it was wrong to suggest that the entire non-Muslim world was intent on destroying Islam, but justifies an aggressive military jihad as a means of establishing global Islamic supremacy.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article2409833.ecei
+++

WHEN WE KNOW THAT ALL MOSLEMS ARE INVETERATE LIARS AND DECEIVERS.....

How can we have any confidence in any moslem communication with us ?
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1369748182/0#0

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #412 - Jun 9^th, 2013 at 3:06pm

Yadda wrote on Jun 9^th, 2013 at 1:56pm:

The best that the Koran can offer as an example of Allah's mercy and tolerance towards disbelievers is this......

Yadda, what you claimed was this:

Yadda wrote on Jun 9^th, 2013 at 1:56pm:

There are no verses in the Koran, encouraging hospitality or friendship towards people who are identified as 'disbelievers' or non-moslems.

Prove me wrong.

verse 60:8 says:

Quote:

Allah does not forbid you from those who do not fight you because of religion and do not expel you from your homes - from being righteous toward them and acting justly toward them. Indeed, Allah loves those who act justly.

So basically:

1. Allah says its ok to be righteous to non-muslims who don't oppress you - and doing so is acting justly

2. Allah loves those who act justly

This is clearly an example of "encouraging hospitality or friendship towards people who are identified as 'disbelievers' or non-moslems."

So I just proved you wrong

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Brian Ross

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #413 - Jun 9^th, 2013 at 3:41pm

Yadda wrote on Jun 9^th, 2013 at 3:00pm:

alikhan0 wrote on Jun 9^th, 2013 at 2:04pm:

Hi Dear

Do any search on muslim organisations that represent mainstream islam in Australia, UK and the US - and just about anywhere else, you will see that the message is consistent: extremism and violence in the name of islam is rejected and condemned.

Thanks!

Hello 'dear',

Yes, that trick used to work, until we discovered that all moslems are inveterate liars and deceivers.

All moslems are inveterate liars and eceivers.

All moslems are inveterate liars and deceivers.

All moslems are inveterate liars and deceivers.

Got the message, 'dear' ?/highlight]

Yadda, you have of course spoken to and subjected every Muslim in the world to a polygraph test to prove that?

You haven't?

How unsurprising. Your bigoty yet once more on display. Roll Eyes

I'm away a week and return and it's the same old lies from the same old bigots. Nothing changed. Roll Eyes

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It seems that I have upset a Moderator and are forbidden from using memes. So much for Freedom of Speech. Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

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moses

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #414 - Jun 9^th, 2013 at 4:19pm

Quote:

All nice quotes, but show me where the Koran specifies killing - you’ve added this.

Well it's pretty simple really, a couple which explicitly urge killing are:

9.111 : allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of paradise): they FIGHT in his cause, and SLAY and are SLAIN: a promise binding on him in truth, through the Law, the gospel, and the qur'an: and who is more faithful to his covenant than allah? then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded: that is the achievement supreme.

22.58 : Those who leave their homes in the cause of allah, and are then slain or die,- On them will allah bestow verily a goodly provision: Truly allah is he who bestows the best provision

Both of these are very clear, if you go forth and fight in the cause of allah it is your responsibility to slay and be slain.

Now consider the following:

4.95 : Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of allah with their goods and their persons. allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit (at home). Unto all (in Faith) Hath allah promised good: But those who strive and fight Hath he distinguished above those who sit (at home) by a special reward,-

Only a liar would say that fighting does not mean killing in the above verse.

Because 9.111 tells us they FIGHT in his cause, and slay and are slain

The qur'an 4.95 is very explicit, muslims who go forth to fight in the cause of allah (to slay and be slain), are a grade higher than other muslims.

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« Last Edit: Jun 9^th, 2013 at 4:29pm by moses »

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Karnal

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #415 - Jun 9^th, 2013 at 7:22pm

Slay and are slain eh, Moses?

Did you know Jesus the Carpenter said that to enter the Kingdom of Heaven you have to be born again?

I’m surprised Christians don’t get about in nappies with wet nurses and nannies - apart from the old boy, of course. Born again.

To slay and be slain - there’s the rub.

Anyone who takes centuries-old religious texts hook, line and sinker should contact the old boy’s wet nurse for a consultation.

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Yadda

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #416 - Jun 9^th, 2013 at 7:30pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 9^th, 2013 at 3:06pm:

Yadda wrote on Jun 9^th, 2013 at 1:56pm:

The best that the Koran can offer as an example of Allah's mercy and tolerance towards disbelievers is this......

Yadda, what you claimed was this:

Yadda wrote on Jun 9^th, 2013 at 1:56pm:

There are no verses in the Koran, encouraging hospitality or friendship towards people who are identified as 'disbelievers' or non-moslems.

Prove me wrong.

verse 60:8 says:

Quote:

Allah does not forbid you from those who do not fight you because of religion and do not expel you from your homes - from being righteous toward them and acting justly toward them. Indeed, Allah loves those who act justly.

So basically:

1. Allah says its ok to be righteous to non-muslims who don't oppress you - and doing so is acting justly

2. Allah loves those who act justly

This is clearly an example of "encouraging hospitality or friendship towards people who are identified as 'disbelievers' or non-moslems."

So I just proved you wrong

Yes you did.

Yes, moslems are the rightly guided people, and Allah loves those who act justly.

And sophistry and deceit, are a million miles away from your moslem lips, too, gadalf.

Eh ?

Quote:

Giving Salams to Non-Muslims

A believer may greet a non-Muslim (with the greeting of salam, m) if he has a need from him otherwise it is prohibitively disliked (makruh)��Therefore, one should abstain from saying Salam to the disbelievers,...

makruh = = In Islamic terminology, something which is makruh (Arabic مكروه, also transliterated makrouh, makrūh etc.) is a disliked or offensive act (literally "detestable").

"Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves....."
Koran 48.29

and.....

Dictionary;

ummah = = the whole community of Muslims bound together by ties of religion.

and.....

"Muslims are one ummah (community) to the exclusion of all men. Believers are friends of one another to the exclusion of all outsiders."
Ishaq:231

+++

gandalf,

Your Allah isn't very consistent is he ?....

He claims great admiration for Jews??? and the Christians [in that period when Mohammed was still trying to 'corral' the Arabian Jews and Christians, into ISLAM! Grin

];

"Say: "O People of the Book! ye have no ground to stand upon unless ye stand fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord." It is the revelation that cometh to thee from thy Lord, that increaseth in most of them their obstinate rebellion and blasphemy. But sorrow thou not over (these) people without Faith.
Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians and the Christians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness,- on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. "
Koran 5.68,69

Then, he curses Jews and the Christians;

"The Jews....and the Christians.......Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth! "
Koran 9.30

Allah loves those who act justly.

But he curses all Jews and all Christians.

I guess that we will all find out who this 'Allah' is, on judgement day, won't we gandalf ?

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Yadda

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #417 - Jun 9^th, 2013 at 7:53pm

Karnal wrote on Jun 9^th, 2013 at 7:22pm:

Slay and are slain eh, Moses?

Did you know Jesus the Carpenter said that to enter the Kingdom of Heaven you have to be born again?

I’m surprised Christians don’t get about in nappies with wet nurses and nannies - apart from the old boy, of course. Born again.

To slay and be slain - there’s the rub.

Anyone who takes centuries-old religious texts hook, line and sinker should contact the old boy’s wet nurse for a consultation.

Tis easy to mock, K.

And easy more so, for you, the court jester [or is that court fool ?].

John 3:4
Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

All men are 'born of water', when they are born into this world.

A man is 'born of the Spirit', when the Spirit of God touches him. [Revelation 7:3]

I'm amazed K, have you never heard that expression; "He/her has been touched by God."

???

Tongue

John 14:15
If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

1 Corinthians 2:12
Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 98421	Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism? Reply #418 - Jun 9^th, 2013 at 11:56pm As an Old Testament man, Y, you’re too busy stoning adulterers to worry about things like being born of water or spirit. Slay and be slain, Y. That’s the ticket.
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Yadda

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Re: Evidence mainstream islam facilitates radicalism?
Reply #419 - Jun 10^th, 2013 at 5:11am

Karnal wrote on Jun 9^th, 2013 at 11:56pm:

As an Old Testament man, Y, you’re too busy stoning adulterers to worry about things like being born of water or spirit.

You are so superficial, K.

Never looking to see the big picture. Tongue

Quote:

Slay and be slain, Y. That’s the ticket.

If you say so, K.

"Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain:...."
Koran 9.111

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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