Australian Politics Forum - mandates in representative democracy

longweekend58

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Re: mandates in representative democracy
Reply #15 - Apr 4^th, 2013 at 4:06pm

freediver wrote on Apr 4^th, 2013 at 2:32pm:

Here are some more examples of Longy promoting and at the same time complaining about the will of the majority. He even suggests that a government should pass unpopular but necessary legislation. Any more backflips and we will have to start calling him Tony.

gold_medal wrote on Jan 13^th, 2013 at 3:38pm:

an MP who has to vote according to the wishes of the voting electorate also has no real value. you could replace him with... no one.

gold_medal wrote on Jan 19^th, 2013 at 11:59am:

'stable govt' is govt that can actually EXIST despite the ebb and flow of popular (and uninformed) opinion. Your system would make it impossible for a govt to make a necessary yet unpopular decision. absolutely and utterly unpopular. Taxes need to be increased??? never happen. taxes lowered to unsustainable levels? pass every time.

gold_medal wrote on Jan 19^th, 2013 at 12:02pm:

'popular' meaning voting in support of any idiotic plan that may be supported by the handful of idiots that drive the process.

And men of principle like Howard wouldnt last a moment. Can you imagine a GST passing in such a system?

gold_medal wrote on Jan 14^th, 2013 at 7:41pm:

You might not like giving control to parties with less than 50% support but it craps all over giving it so people with 10%.

gold_medal wrote on Jan 14^th, 2013 at 4:39pm:

Im not against minorities. I just think they need to become a majority before inflicitng their viewpoint on us. I beleive that that is the essential nature of true democrcay - rule by the majority without the Special Olympics cheap seats.

gold_medal wrote on Jan 13^th, 2013 at 6:36pm:

why shoudl every vote count? a democracy is at its care decisions my the majority. if you arent part of the majority then your vote didnt count. thats just how it works. PR has its good points but in the end if it allows the minority to rul over the majority then it is a bad way of doping things.

gold_medal wrote on Jan 18^th, 2013 at 7:16pm:

Im a fan of the preferential system but I believe there should be a modification that eliminates a candidate if they are more than 10% behind the primary vote winner. In most cases the results are fair but it is never fair when someone gets 48% of the vote and is defeated by someone with 25%. dont bother arguing the point. these are the situations that show the weaknesses of preferential voting.

gold_medal wrote on Jan 17^th, 2013 at 5:19pm:

My only other problem with preferential is when a primary vote leader is overtaken in the end by someone 10+% behind. I think that is wrong. The notion of a sceond preference having equal weight to a first is inequitable and incorect. The simplistic notion that preferences are actually genuine is also rather ludicrous.

gold_medal wrote on Jan 15^th, 2013 at 2:13pm:

thats because under the PR system, getting a mandate is next to impossible. That doesnt mean that a mandate isnt there, but rather that it is impossible to prove in the Special Olympics voting system.

truly pitiful... a selection largely taken out of context of the wider debate.

And there is another point that I doubt ever passed through your brain FD. An opinion that is diametrically opposed to yours does not by definition become stupid or mock-worthy. Brighter and more intellectual honest people than you would judge the value of an idea before rejecting it.

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freediver

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Re: mandates in representative democracy
Reply #16 - Apr 4^th, 2013 at 4:10pm

Longy in all this, you still have not stated what you think a mandate is, beyond saying it is whatever you think the public supports. Given your rejection of the need for majority support to govern, how do you establish a clear mandate?

Quote:

truly pitiful... a selection largely taken out of context of the wider debate.

Of course, and it demonstrates how you change your opinion on an issue depending on how you want to spin it for the coalition.

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longweekend58

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Re: mandates in representative democracy
Reply #17 - Apr 4^th, 2013 at 4:11pm

Dsmithy70 wrote on Apr 4^th, 2013 at 3:46pm:

Swagman wrote on Apr 4^th, 2013 at 3:27pm:

John Smith wrote on Apr 4^th, 2013 at 2:48pm:

Swagman wrote on Apr 4^th, 2013 at 2:46pm:

Sorry couldn't resist that comment.

A mandate is where a party goes to an election with a CLEAR policy platform and wins the election.

The carbon tax was not mandated for example but the GST was.

was the ETS?

We have a carbon tax not an ETS.

And before you spin out..........the operative word was "CLEAR"

But we would have had an ETS had Abbott honoured the mandate given to Rudd.
Rudd campaigned long & loud on CC, remember the "Greatest Moral Challenge" you love to throw in our faces when Copenhagen is mentioned?
That was 1st uttered in the 2007 election campaign.
Or is that now in this context considered ambiguous?

finally a debate on what a mandate means!!! you could argue that Rudd had a mandate for the ETS... perhaps. But at the same time you could argue Howard had one for the GST and equally that Rudd had a mandate for the workchoices repeal.

But so far, we still seem to be defining a mandate but our political persuasions.

FD doesnt believe a mandate exists oither than control of both houses shich essentially makes the word meaningless.

A mandate is something that is a moral obligation on opponents of a party or policy to support it in the face of voter support. used properly, a mandate is what ensures that voters get an actual say in the running of the country.

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freediver

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Re: mandates in representative democracy
Reply #18 - Apr 4^th, 2013 at 4:13pm

Quote:

FD doesnt believe a mandate exists oither than control of both houses shich essentially makes the word meaningless.

Read it again Longy. That is not what I said. You could even try quoting me rather than telling me what I think. Though I can see why you might think that futile, given that quoting you only produces endless contradictions.

Quote:

A mandate is something that is a moral obligation on opponents of a party or policy to support it in the face of voter support.

Come on Longy, you could at least try to make sense.

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John Smith Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 78289 Gender:	Re: mandates in representative democracy Reply #19 - Apr 4^th, 2013 at 4:18pm longweekend58 wrote on Apr 4^th, 2013 at 4:11pm: A mandate is something that is a moral obligation on opponents of a party or policy to support it in the face of voter support. if that were true you wouldn't need the opponents support now would you!
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longweekend58

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Re: mandates in representative democracy
Reply #20 - Apr 4^th, 2013 at 4:18pm

freediver wrote on Apr 4^th, 2013 at 4:10pm:

Longy in all this, you still have not stated what you think a mandate is, beyond saying it is whatever you think the public supports. Given your rejection of the need for majority support to govern, how do you establish a clear mandate?

Quote:

truly pitiful... a selection largely taken out of context of the wider debate.

Of course, and it demonstrates how you change your opinion on an issue depending on how you want to spin it for the coalition.

'majority' another word you apparently don't understand or care to use appropriately. In the absolute sense, NO PARTY achieves a majority of the vote. The coalition of course is on song to exceed 50% of the vote but I can already see your predictable objection that they are two parties.

So let's take this clear-cut example and see how it works out.

Abbott is obviously going to win the election and by a substantial margin but wll probably not acheive a senate majority. Clearly a major platform will be the CT repeal. But how about this: immediately after the election, a plebiscite is held on the CT repeal. If >50% supports the repeal would you accept then that there is a genuine unequivocal mandate for the CT repeal? The plebiscite of course is not binding on anyone but do you then think that the greens and labor are honour-bound to vote for the repeal?

before you answer keep in mind that you are a very vocal proponent of direct democracy.

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longweekend58

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Re: mandates in representative democracy
Reply #21 - Apr 4^th, 2013 at 4:20pm

John Smith wrote on Apr 4^th, 2013 at 4:18pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 4^th, 2013 at 4:11pm:

A mandate is something that is a moral obligation on opponents of a party or policy to support it in the face of voter support.

if that were true you wouldn't need the opponents support now would you!

yeah... because no popular policy has even been denied by parliament...

move along, ernie.

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longweekend58 Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 45675 Gender:	Re: mandates in representative democracy Reply #22 - Apr 4^th, 2013 at 4:21pm freediver wrote on Apr 4^th, 2013 at 4:13pm: Quote: A mandate is something that is a moral obligation on opponents of a party or policy to support it in the face of voter support. Come on Longy, you could at least try to make sense. which part of that confused you? 'moral obligation' or 'voter support'
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John Smith

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Re: mandates in representative democracy
Reply #23 - Apr 4^th, 2013 at 4:22pm

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 4^th, 2013 at 4:20pm:

John Smith wrote on Apr 4^th, 2013 at 4:18pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 4^th, 2013 at 4:11pm:

A mandate is something that is a moral obligation on opponents of a party or policy to support it in the face of voter support.

if that were true you wouldn't need the opponents support now would you!

yeah... because no popular policy has even been denied by parliament...

move along, ernie.

do you even think about what you have written or does it just run out like diarreha?

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I hope that bitch who was running their brothels for them gets raped with a cactus.

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longweekend58

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Re: mandates in representative democracy
Reply #24 - Apr 4^th, 2013 at 4:24pm

John Smith wrote on Apr 4^th, 2013 at 4:22pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 4^th, 2013 at 4:20pm:

John Smith wrote on Apr 4^th, 2013 at 4:18pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 4^th, 2013 at 4:11pm:

A mandate is something that is a moral obligation on opponents of a party or policy to support it in the face of voter support.

if that were true you wouldn't need the opponents support now would you!

yeah... because no popular policy has even been denied by parliament...

move along, ernie.

do you even think about what you have written or does it just run out like diarreha?

that would be your problem as evidenced by your inability to argue the point and instead just post your typical abuse. If you disagree with me then show me why and how. Assuming of course that you are capable of such a feat.

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freediver

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Re: mandates in representative democracy
Reply #25 - Apr 4^th, 2013 at 4:25pm

Quote:

But how about this: immediately after the election, a plebiscite is held on the CT repeal.

And Longy changes his tune yet again. Have you given up pretending that an election is a referendum on a single issue? The coalition would never do this. It is much easier to attack the carbon tax when you make it all about Gillard rather than the tax itself. They are hardly going to start a debate that can only make themselves look incompetent. Abbott himself used to be one of the biggest promoters of the carbon tax. How would people like you know how to vote if it isn't one party against another?

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longweekend58

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Re: mandates in representative democracy
Reply #26 - Apr 4^th, 2013 at 4:31pm

freediver wrote on Apr 4^th, 2013 at 4:25pm:

Quote:

But how about this: immediately after the election, a plebiscite is held on the CT repeal.

And Longy changes his tune yet again. Have you given up pretending that an election is a referendum on a single issue? The coalition would never do this. It is much easier to attack the carbon tax when you make it all about Gillard rather than the tax itself. They are hardly going to start a debate that can only make themselves look incompetent.

good grief FD... I am trying to see if you actually believe the people have a right to repeal the CT. your entire position on mandates is apparently based on the carbon tax which you love and 2/3 of the population hates.

In trying to get a beginning discussion on a mandate I provided you with an example of a single issue uncluttered by other policies to see how you reacted and you did exactly what I expected - deflect.

okay let's try it again and see if your principles exiets outside of your preferences.

we have TWO plebiscites held on the same day.

1) Gay Marriage
2) Carbon tax repeal

Both pass with >50% majority. what does parliament do? vote along party lines or support the peoples wishes?

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 51806 At my desk.	Re: mandates in representative democracy Reply #27 - Apr 4^th, 2013 at 4:34pm Also Longy you are yet to explain how you reconcile all this carrying on about clear mandates with your view that a more organised minority should naturally rule over the majority.
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longweekend58

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Re: mandates in representative democracy
Reply #28 - Apr 4^th, 2013 at 4:36pm

freediver wrote on Apr 4^th, 2013 at 4:34pm:

Also Longy you are yet to explain how you reconcile all this carrying on about clear mandates with your view that a more organised minority should naturally rule over the majority.

nice try. just answer the above scenario which should be unequivocal and then we can move on to more complex scenarios

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freediver

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Re: mandates in representative democracy
Reply #29 - Apr 4^th, 2013 at 4:39pm

Quote:

good grief FD... I am trying to see if you actually believe the people have a right to repeal the CT.

Bit of a non-issue don't you think, given that both major parties plan to repeal it, and this repeal is in fact already written into law?

Quote:

your entire position on mandates is apparently based on the carbon tax which you love and 2/3 of the population hates.

No Longy it is you who changes your opinion on the issue whenever it suit your partisan agenda.

Quote:

In trying to get a beginning discussion on a mandate I provided you with an example of a single issue uncluttered by other policies to see how you reacted and you did exactly what I expected - deflect.

Longy, in the opening post I gave you a link to a lengthy discussion between you and me where I promoted an idea that would achieve the same thing as your plebiscite idea, without the absurd burden your idea imposes. You argued vehemently against it, even claiming that it is the moral thing to do for politicians to act against the will of the majority. The only source of confusion here is you changing your mind constantly.

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