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Gene and Meme (Read 10892 times)
Postmodern Trendoid III
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Gene and Meme
Mar 15th, 2013 at 8:58am
 
Gene and meme.

Where does one start and the other end?

I am not sure there is even a separation between the two. How can a meme emerge without the body (biology) to begin with? Memes are created by us - humans - so they must have a biological base. Also, can it be the same with the reverse? Are the biological sciences a cultural unit that are only passed on through belief; like an idea that is only true because we believe it to be true?

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muso
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Re: Gene and Meme
Reply #1 - Mar 16th, 2013 at 4:26pm
 
There is a lot of work going on in the field of epigenetics. Changes to the epigenome do not affect our DNA, which is relatively static, however most memes are transferred by word of mouth and the various other ways in which human beings communicate.

They develop in the individual brain structure in the same way as other learnings, during a single life span.   

During our lifetime, our brains develop an incredible complexity. This complexity is not  genetic in basis. Our 19,599 protein-coding genes are simply not capable of determining the structure of the brain. Put it this way, the human brain has roughly 100- 200 billion neurons, comparable to the number of stars in the Milky Way. During our lifetime,  each of these develop several thousand connections to other neurons.

This comes up to a total of 500-1000 trillion connections within the brain. No computer on earth has that many connections, and if you divide 500 trillion by 19,599, it's pretty obvious that brain development doesn't have a basis in genetics.
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« Last Edit: Mar 16th, 2013 at 4:38pm by muso »  

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Soren
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Re: Gene and Meme
Reply #2 - Mar 16th, 2013 at 10:47pm
 
so many numbers, so little meaning.

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Yadda
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Re: Gene and Meme
Reply #3 - Mar 16th, 2013 at 11:00pm
 
muso wrote on Mar 16th, 2013 at 4:26pm:
There is a lot of work going on in the field of epigenetics. Changes to the epigenome do not affect our DNA, which is relatively static, however most memes are transferred by word of mouth and the various other ways in which human beings communicate.

They develop in the individual brain structure in the same way as other learnings, during a single life span.   

During our lifetime, our brains develop an incredible complexity. This complexity is not  genetic in basis. Our 19,599 protein-coding genes are simply not capable of determining the structure of the brain. Put it this way, the human brain has roughly 100- 200 billion neurons, comparable to the number of stars in the Milky Way. During our lifetime,  each of these develop several thousand connections to other neurons.

This comes up to a total of 500-1000 trillion connections within the brain. No computer on earth has that many connections, and if you divide 500 trillion by 19,599, it's pretty obvious that brain development doesn't have a basis in genetics.





So............................................

.......as individuals, each one of us is [almost] infinitely more complex, than what we may, apparently, seem to be.




Knew that.







+++




Job 7:17
What is man, that thou shouldest magnify him? and that thou shouldest set thine heart upon him?
18  And that thou shouldest visit him every morning, and try him every moment?


Psalms 8:3
When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained;
4  What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?
5  For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.




.....and more, but i won't bore you, coz muso detests me posting related scripture.          Tongue


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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31
 
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muso
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Re: Gene and Meme
Reply #4 - Mar 17th, 2013 at 12:01pm
 
Yadda wrote on Mar 16th, 2013 at 11:00pm:
.....and more, but i won't bore you, coz muso detests me posting related scripture.          Tongue



Why me?

Psalms 34:13 Keep thy tongue from evil, and thy lips from speaking guile.

I often quote Scripture back to you. I'm not one of these Militant Anti-Theist types. We actually have a lot of common ground.
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muso
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Re: Gene and Meme
Reply #5 - Mar 17th, 2013 at 12:02pm
 
Soren wrote on Mar 16th, 2013 at 10:47pm:
so many numbers, so little meaning.



I'll get Spot to translate for you.
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NorthOfNorth
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Re: Gene and Meme
Reply #6 - Mar 17th, 2013 at 12:43pm
 
Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Mar 15th, 2013 at 8:58am:
Memes are created by us - humans -

Only humans?


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Re: Gene and Meme
Reply #7 - Mar 17th, 2013 at 1:48pm
 
muso wrote on Mar 16th, 2013 at 4:26pm:
During our lifetime, our brains develop an incredible complexity. This complexity is not  genetic in basis. Our 19,599 protein-coding genes are simply not capable of determining the structure of the brain. Put it this way, the human brain has roughly 100- 200 billion neurons, comparable to the number of stars in the Milky Way. During our lifetime,  each of these develop several thousand connections to other neurons.

This comes up to a total of 500-1000 trillion connections within the brain. No computer on earth has that many connections, and if you divide 500 trillion by 19,599, it's pretty obvious that brain development doesn't have a basis in genetics.


And yet, the vast majority of brain development is universal.  Everyone uses it for regulating the internal environment, language, motor skills, basic cognition - what else does this suggest but a strong genetic component? 
Just remember the golden rule - nature AND nurture, not nature VS nurture. Why must we keep pretending the brain is an exception?
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In the fullness of time...
 
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Yadda
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Re: Gene and Meme
Reply #8 - Mar 17th, 2013 at 1:49pm
 
muso wrote on Mar 17th, 2013 at 12:01pm:
Yadda wrote on Mar 16th, 2013 at 11:00pm:
.....and more, but i won't bore you, coz muso detests me posting related scripture.          Tongue



Why me?







http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1362815279/10#10

Last line.

I thought that you may have been expressing a recurring preference.
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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31
 
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muso
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Re: Gene and Meme
Reply #9 - Mar 17th, 2013 at 2:14pm
 
No, that was speciific to that topic.
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muso
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Re: Gene and Meme
Reply #10 - Mar 17th, 2013 at 2:22pm
 
... wrote on Mar 17th, 2013 at 1:48pm:
And yet, the vast majority of brain development is universal.  Everyone uses it for regulating the internal environment, language, motor skills, basic cognition - what else does this suggest but a strong genetic component? 
Just remember the golden rule - nature AND nurture, not nature VS nurture. Why must we keep pretending the brain is an exception?


Yes, but language and basic cognition are acquired. Motor skills too. The basic hardware and operating systems are a combination of genetic and epigenetic. The "software" is not.

We are largely self programmed, and there is a lot more than DNA (or allele genetics) involved.

Google "transgenerational epigenetic inheritance". It's a relatively new field but our understanding is developing in leaps and bounds. It's now understood that the Epigenome plays a crucial role in genomic imprinting (parental inheritance).

Read more here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genomic_imprinting

This is a bit more advanced if you want to read further.
https://www.mcdb.ucla.edu/Research/Jacobsen/LabWebSite/P_ResearchProgram.shtml
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« Last Edit: Mar 17th, 2013 at 2:41pm by muso »  

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Re: Gene and Meme
Reply #11 - Mar 17th, 2013 at 2:26pm
 
muso wrote on Mar 17th, 2013 at 2:22pm:
... wrote on Mar 17th, 2013 at 1:48pm:
And yet, the vast majority of brain development is universal.  Everyone uses it for regulating the internal environment, language, motor skills, basic cognition - what else does this suggest but a strong genetic component? 
Just remember the golden rule - nature AND nurture, not nature VS nurture. Why must we keep pretending the brain is an exception?


Yes, but language and basic cognition are acquired. Motor skills too. The basic hardware and operating systems are a combination of genetic and epigenetic. The "software" is not. We are largely self programmed, and there is a lot more than genetics involved.


That's right, but they are acquired by all humans, regardless of the massive variations in environment. 
How can that be, if there is no genetic basis?
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In the fullness of time...
 
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muso
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Re: Gene and Meme
Reply #12 - Mar 17th, 2013 at 2:43pm
 
I expanded my post with more details.
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NorthOfNorth
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Gene and Meme - How to Start a Religion
Reply #13 - Mar 17th, 2013 at 3:49pm
 
Genes are memes in this :

Both reflect the will of the first cause : To Transfer Symmetry.
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muso
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Re: Gene and Meme
Reply #14 - Mar 17th, 2013 at 5:45pm
 
... wrote on Mar 17th, 2013 at 2:26pm:
muso wrote on Mar 17th, 2013 at 2:22pm:
... wrote on Mar 17th, 2013 at 1:48pm:
And yet, the vast majority of brain development is universal.  Everyone uses it for regulating the internal environment, language, motor skills, basic cognition - what else does this suggest but a strong genetic component? 
Just remember the golden rule - nature AND nurture, not nature VS nurture. Why must we keep pretending the brain is an exception?


Yes, but language and basic cognition are acquired. Motor skills too. The basic hardware and operating systems are a combination of genetic and epigenetic. The "software" is not. We are largely self programmed, and there is a lot more than genetics involved.


That's right, but they are acquired by all humans, regardless of the massive variations in environment. 
How can that be, if there is no genetic basis?


If you've ever had kids, think about how they learnt to speak.
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