Australian Politics Forum - SHOOTINGS, extortion and general violence [in Syd

polite_gandalf

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Re: SHOOTINGS, extortion and general violence [in Syd
Reply #30 - Dec 12^th, 2012 at 11:40am

^ hmmm apparently thats Yadda not being hysterical.

Let me sum up why I think you are wrong:

1. You quote all the "bad" things from the quran (without understanding their context), but ignore all the things that promote a message of peace and tolerance. And don't say they aren't there - a quick google search easily finds them. You can start, for example, with:

Fight in the way of God against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! God loveth not aggressors - 2:190

2. You quote all the violent and intolerant muslims, but ignore the many many more that are not violent and intolerant - and who actively promote a message of peace and tolerance (as per the quran). For example you always post pictures of the notorious "beheading" protestors in Sydney, but you never mention the Islamic Council of Melbourne who unequivocally denounced those protestors - not to mention the many many muslims all over the world who always appear to condemn islamic violence and intolerance wherever it occurs.

3. Related to my previous post which you again ignored, you dishonestly portray muslim crime as the most prolific in society - which I guarantee you it is not. As I mentioned before, in Sydney, crime committed by muslim gangs pales compared to (white) bikie gang crimes and Chinese triad crimes - to name just two.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Yadda

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Re: SHOOTINGS, extortion and general violence [in Syd
Reply #31 - Dec 12^th, 2012 at 12:49pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 12^th, 2012 at 11:40am:

^ hmmm apparently thats Yadda not being hysterical.

Let me sum up why I think you are wrong:

1. You quote all the "bad" things from the quran (without understanding their context), but ignore all the things that promote a message of peace and tolerance. And don't say they aren't there - a quick google search easily finds them. You can start, for example, with:

Fight in the way of God against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! God loveth not aggressors - 2:190

2. You quote all the violent and intolerant muslims, but ignore the many many more that are not violent and intolerant - and who actively promote a message of peace and tolerance (as per the quran). For example you always post pictures of the notorious "beheading" protestors in Sydney, but you never mention the Islamic Council of Melbourne who unequivocally denounced those protestors - not to mention the many many muslims all over the world who always appear to condemn islamic violence and intolerance wherever it occurs.

3. Related to my previous post which you again ignored, you dishonestly portray muslim crime as the most prolific in society - which I guarantee you it is not. As I mentioned before, in Sydney, crime committed by muslim gangs pales compared to (white) bikie gang crimes and Chinese triad crimes - to name just two.

gandalf,

I do not know [i cannot PROVE] if you are a dissembler or just uninformed [i.e. an idiot].

Dictionary;
dissemble = = hide or disguise one’s true motives or feelings.

And quite frankly, i do not care.

Because that is upon your account [with God].

But gandalf, i do believe that you are a good moslem.

And that last statement is NOT a compliment.

+++

FROM YOUR POST;

gandalf,

#1,

You are moslem.

Because you are a moslem you would be aware of the Meccan Koran, and the Medina Koran.

And how the tolerant Meccan Koran verses, are all abrogated by the later 'warfare against the disbelievers' Medina Koran verses.

So please don't act offended, when i post authentic and valid 'warfare against the disbelievers' Koran verses.

Anyone with eyes to see, can see your LIES gandalf.

And they can see that you [like every moslem] are intentionally misrepresenting the nature and the intent of ISLAM, to the [uninformed, trusting] non-moslem community.

gandalf,

#2,
"....you never mention the Islamic Council of Melbourne who unequivocally denounced those protestors"

That, is a lie.

That declaration by the Islamic Council of Melbourne was a pure falsehood that was being foisted upon the broader Australian community.

Someone please post a link to a YT of that TV news item;
....and i will dissect and explain the 'weasel words' for you.
[ <---- because yes i watched that item on the TV news. and when i heard these words used, i *heard* the words that were used as a person from the 'moslem' community would 'hear' them. i.e. those words had one meaning for a moslem audience, and they had another, APPARENT MEANING, for the broader non-moslem audience.
I WAS ANGRY WHEN I WATCHED IT, BECAUSE THAT 'MEDIA EVENT' WAS PURE MOSLEM SOPHISTRY [DECEPTION] !!!! ]

gandalf,

#3,
"As I mentioned before, in Sydney, crime committed by muslim gangs pales compared to (white) bikie gang crimes and Chinese triad crimes..."

Really ?

Tell me, who have all of the glock pistols, and who are doing most of the 'Wild West' shootings in the suburbs of Sydney these days ?

Is it the Anglos, and the Chinese, or the Vietnamese ?

Or is it gangs from the moslem community [who are 'shooting up' each others houses, as a form of intimidation in a turf war] ?

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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polite_gandalf

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Re: SHOOTINGS, extortion and general violence [in Syd
Reply #32 - Dec 12^th, 2012 at 3:40pm

Yadda wrote on Dec 12^th, 2012 at 12:49pm:

And how the tolerant Meccan Koran verses, are all abrogated by the later 'warfare against the disbelievers' Medina Koran verses.

Oh silly billy - you don't even realise that the verse I quoted was from a Medina surah Cheesy

In fact ALL the quranic verses that detail a strict moral code for warfare - as well as the peaceful coexistence with non-muslims are Medina verses.

So 2:190-195 sets out the strict conditions for war - namely only fight in self defence, and desist as soon as the enemy desists in their aggression:

Fight them until there is no [more] fitnah* and [until] worship is [acknowledged to be] for Allah . But if they cease, then there is to be no aggression except against the oppressors. 2:193

*fitnah - is the state in which worship of God is made impossible (as in by the oppression of non-muslim aggressors)

Other verses - all from Medina Surahs - details the tolerance islam has for other religions:

For each of you We have made a (different) code (shir‘ah), and an open way (of action) (minhaj). If God so pleased, He would have made you (all) into one (religious) community. Therefore vie (with each other) in goodness (so that) He may test you by what He has given you. (Remember, you) all will (eventually) return to God, and He will tell you in what you differed 5:48

O People! We have created you as male and female, and made you into races and religious communities (lit., ‘tribes) for you to get to know each other. The noblest among you near God are those of you who are the most heedful (morally upright). Indeed God is All-Knowing and Informed 49:13

Those who believe, and those who are Jews, and Sabians and Christians - (in fact) any who believe in God and the Last Day, and do good deeds - there will be no fear upon them, nor shall they grieve 5:69

Yadda wrote on Dec 12^th, 2012 at 12:49pm:

Tell me, who have all of the glock pistols, and who are doing most of the 'Wild West' shootings in the suburbs of Sydney these days ?

Is it the Anglos, and the Chinese, or the Vietnamese ?

sooo there is literally no problem with chinese triads/east asian drug crimes in Sydney? And those bikie gang wars must be just a figment of my imagination right? 100% of Sydney crimes are muslims. Well I guess that makes sense - I mean they must be all following those Medina Surahs that forbids aggressive warfare and promotes interfaith cooperation and coexistence... oh wait...

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Yadda

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Re: SHOOTINGS, extortion and general violence [in Syd
Reply #33 - Dec 12^th, 2012 at 8:58pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 12^th, 2012 at 3:40pm:

Yadda wrote on Dec 12^th, 2012 at 12:49pm:

And how the tolerant Meccan Koran verses, are all abrogated by the later 'warfare against the disbelievers' Medina Koran verses.

Oh silly billy - you don't even realise that the verse I quoted was from a Medina surah Cheesy

In fact ALL the quranic verses that detail a strict moral code for warfare - as well as the peaceful coexistence with non-muslims are Medina verses.

So 2:190-195 sets out the strict conditions for war - namely only fight in self defence,

and desist as soon as the enemy desists in their aggression

:

Fight them until there is no [more] fitnah* and [until] worship is [acknowledged to be] for Allah . But if they cease, then there is to be no aggression except against the oppressors. 2:193

*fitnah - is the state in which worship of God is made impossible (as in by the oppression of non-muslim aggressors)

gandalf,

That is moslem B.S., and you know that it is.

The truth is

that moslems define rejecting ISLAM/Allah's perfect religion, AS 'AGGRESSION' against moslems!

"....as soon as the enemy desists in their aggression."

Is just more moslem sophistry.

Dictionary,
sophistry = = the use of fallacious arguments, especially to deceive.

Quote:

Other verses - all from Medina Surahs - details the tolerance islam has for other religions:

For each of you We have made a (different) code (shir‘ah), and an open way (of action) (minhaj). If God so pleased, He would have made you (all) into one (religious) community. Therefore vie (with each other) in goodness (so that) He may test you by what He has given you. (Remember, you) all will (eventually) return to God, and He will tell you in what you differed 5:48

O People! We have created you as male and female, and made you into races and religious communities (lit., ‘tribes) for you to get to know each other. The noblest among you near God are those of you who are the most heedful (morally upright). Indeed God is All-Knowing and Informed 49:13

Those who believe, and those who are Jews, and Sabians and Christians - (in fact) any who believe in God and the Last Day, and do good deeds - there will be no fear upon them, nor shall they grieve 5:69

ABROGATED.

ABROGATED.

ABROGATED.

+++

"Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians and the Christians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness,- on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve."
Koran 5.69

"Strongest among men in enmity to the believers wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans; and nearest among them in love to the believers wilt thou find those who say, "We are Christians": because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant.
And when they listen to the revelation received by the Messenger, thou wilt see their eyes overflowing with tears, for they recognise the truth: they pray: "Our Lord! we believe; write us down among the witnesses.
"What cause can we have not to believe in Allah and the truth which has come to us, seeing that we long for our Lord to admit us to the company of the righteous?" "
Koran 5.82, 84

You will not see a tear in my eye when i read the Koran!

I [and many informed Christians] say that the Koran is a fabricated document.

ISLAM is a false religion, for a false people, imo.

AND...

"The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth! "
Koran 9.30

gandalf,
Your Allah isn't very consistent is he ?....

He claims great admiration for Jews??? and the Christians;
"....those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians and the Christians,....on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve."
Koran 5.69

Then he curses Jews and the Christians;

"The Jews....and the Christians.......Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth! "
Koran 9.30

LOL

Allah, the god who doesn't know if he is coming or going!

MORE HERE....
Quote:

"O Miriam, sister of Aaron, mother of Jesus!"

The 'inerrant' Koran is so 'confused' that it presents,
Miriam [Mary], the sister of Aaron [and Moses, Exodus 15:20], as the mother of, ...Jesus.

Read it yourself...

"O sister of Aaron!...."
Koran 19:27-34

The inerrant Koran???

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1295396564/0#0

+++

And of course, in their 'out reach' to Christians moslems say;
"We moslems share so much with Christians, because Jesus is a moslem prophet too."

But moslems deceitfully fail to inform Christians that the moslem Jesus, is not the Jesus which Christians revere.

And moslems deceitfully fail to inform Christians that the moslem Jesus, bears no resemblance WHATSOEVER to the Jesus of the Christian scriptures.

TRUE

Moslems = = LIARS

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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polite_gandalf

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Re: SHOOTINGS, extortion and general violence [in Syd
Reply #34 - Dec 12^th, 2012 at 11:36pm

Yadda at least have the good grace to concede that you were just proven wrong in regards to what abrogates what (ie 2:190 is a Medinan verse and NOT and abrogated Meccan verse). I'm pretty sure christianity teaches humility does it not?

This is important, for once you can demonstrate a willingness to admit your demonstrated ignorance towards islam (nothing to be ashamed of - I too have many gaps in my knowledge), then we can get a much better handle on what sort of a theological authority you really are. And thats not a cheap swipe - you demand much of what you say to be taken at face value, simply by quoting random quranic verses. I hope you will learn some day - as I am learning - that this is inadequate. Quranic understanding requires careful analysis - including the arab-english translation, the historical context, and where a given verse fits in with the rest of the quran.

Finally, you might reflect on how useful this abusive style of debating you use is. Attempting to insult me is not going to win you the debate - it is childish and not in the least bit constructive. Frankly I don't care about the insults, but I do care about the lost opportunity of having a constructive and civilised debate. If you are not interested in constructive debate - why are you here? You can't honestly think that I will suddenly "see the light" as a result of you hurling abuse at me do you?

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Soren Gold Member Offline Posts: 25654 Gender:	Re: SHOOTINGS, extortion and general violence [in Syd Reply #35 - Dec 13^th, 2012 at 8:45pm Very nice. Still, killing in the name of Mohammed and iSlam is endorsed by the Koran. Killing in the name of Cheeses isn't by the New Testament. Start wriggling and writhing, pal.
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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: SHOOTINGS, extortion and general violence [in Syd Reply #36 - Dec 14^th, 2012 at 7:12am I agree Soren, killing absolutely IS endorsed by islam. Its called self defence. You got any more useless strawmans?
Back to top	A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said: Quote: Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms. IP Logged

Soren

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Re: SHOOTINGS, extortion and general violence [in Syd
Reply #37 - Dec 14^th, 2012 at 8:03pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 14^th, 2012 at 7:12am:

I agree Soren, killing absolutely IS endorsed by islam. Its called self defence.

You got any more useless strawmans?

Cool.

All the Muslims bombed, shot, blasted and otherwise killed, by the 'crusaders', the Joos or other Muslims, are ALL killed in self-defence. As long as there is an 'injured party' that feels the need for revenge, killing is cool. And let's face it, we all act in self-defence. It's all is Allah's will, it's all Islamic.

This is why Islam is a joke and a pseudo-religion. It is the creed of the resentful and envious.

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Sir Spot of Borg Gold Member Offline WE ARE BORG Posts: 26576 Australia	Re: SHOOTINGS, extortion and general violence [in Syd Reply #38 - Dec 15^th, 2012 at 5:22am Israel screams "self defence" when its not - but who cares about their bible right? SOB
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polite_gandalf

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Re: SHOOTINGS, extortion and general violence [in Syd
Reply #39 - Dec 15^th, 2012 at 7:40am

Soron, its human nature to seek vengeance in the face of oppression - its not an exclusively muslim trait. And of course you can't ignore the political contexts of islamic extremism. I don't think I can think of any islamic terrorism that hasn't been done in the name of some perceived aggression against muslims.

That said, the rules of war in the quran are very clear, which I have already covered. That many muslims violate those rules is not an indictment on the quran. Yes, muslims should obey their own rules when conducting war, but lets face it, very few human remain calm and rational when facing oppression - muslim or otherwise. Thats not in any way justifying terrorism and extremism, but it is not exclusive to the muslim world. And most importantly, the vast majority of muslims are decent law-abiding citizens.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Yadda

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Re: SHOOTINGS, extortion and general violence [in Syd
Reply #40 - Dec 16^th, 2012 at 3:35am

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 12^th, 2012 at 11:36pm:

Yadda at least have the good grace to concede that you were just proven wrong in regards to what abrogates what (ie 2:190 is a Medinan verse and NOT and abrogated Meccan verse).

I abrogate gandalf's presented views about my intentionally and maliciously 'misunderstanding' ISLAM

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1355591493/0#0

And the purpose of the ISLAMIC abrogation of Koranic verses is to serve the best interests of ISLAM in this moment of time,
.....by whatever means that moslems decide, that the abrogation of Koranic verses will best serve the interests of ISLAM in this moment of time.i
+++

On keeping oaths, keeping your word, maintaining a position given through a verbal undertaking....

ALLAH;

"Allah indeed has sanctioned for you the expiation of your oaths and Allah is your Protector, and He is the Knowing the Wise."

Koran 66:2

"The Prophet said, "If I take an oath and later find something else better than that, then I do what is better and expiate my oath."."

hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #007.067.427
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #008.078.618
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #008.079.709
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #008.079.710
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #008.079.712
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #008.079.715

Coz, Mohammed was a covenant breaker, and a liar, just like his god.

"expiate my oath", means an obligation to Allah of penance [Kaffara], e.g. fasting for three days, or to clothe or feed poor people.

Allah and Mohammed above.

+++

From the Jewish O.T. Bible;

Numbers 30:2
If a man vow a vow unto the LORD, or swear an oath to bind his soul with a bond; he shall not break his word, he shall do according to all that proceedeth out of his mouth.

Chalk and cheese!

see also....

Love is not love Which alters when it alteration finds

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1295407319/0#0

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Yadda Gold Member Offline Posts: 22609 A cat with a view	Re: SHOOTINGS, extortion and general violence [in Syd Reply #41 - Dec 16^th, 2012 at 3:41am Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Dec 15^th, 2012 at 5:22am: Israel screams "self defence" when its not - but who cares about their bible right? SOB SPOT, In what sense is Israel NOT acting in self defence, when Israel responds to rocket attacks against its civilian population ???
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Sir Spot of Borg

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Re: SHOOTINGS, extortion and general violence [in Syd
Reply #42 - Dec 16^th, 2012 at 4:17am

Yadda wrote on Dec 16^th, 2012 at 3:41am:

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Dec 15^th, 2012 at 5:22am:

Israel screams "self defence" when its not - but who cares about their bible right?

SOB

SPOT,

In what sense is Israel NOT acting in self defence, when Israel responds to rocket attacks against its civilian population ???

when they bulldoze homes etc then say they are acting in "self defence" when the rockets come that they caused.

SOB

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Whaaaaaah!
I'm a
Moron!

- edited by some unethical admin - you think its funny? - its a slippery slope

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Yadda

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Re: SHOOTINGS, extortion and general violence [in Syd
Reply #43 - Dec 16^th, 2012 at 1:54pm

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Dec 16^th, 2012 at 4:17am:

Yadda wrote on Dec 16^th, 2012 at 3:41am:

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Dec 15^th, 2012 at 5:22am:

Israel screams "self defence" when its not - but who cares about their bible right?

SOB

SPOT,

In what sense is Israel NOT acting in self defence, when Israel responds to rocket attacks against its civilian population ???

when they bulldoze homes etc then say they are acting in "self defence" when the rockets come that they caused.

SOB

SPOT,

In Western Australia several cars belonging to repeat offender road hoons, have been seized by the state, and crushed.

This has been done [we are told], so as to discourage repeat offender road hoons from continuing their dangerous antics on public roads.

But i think that repeat offender road hoons in Western Australia should rise up!!!!! ....and put an end to this unjust state government action in Western Australia !!! Tongue

How dare the Western Australia state, destroy the property of repeat offender road hoons !!!!!!!!!! Tongue

p.s.
The Israeli government has also authorised the destruction of the family homes of ISLAMIC militants, after they attack Israeli civilians.

I think that ISLAMIC militants in Israel should rise us and put an end to this unjust Israeli government destroying the homes of innocent 'Palestinians'.
/sarc off

Science works.

For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.

Newton's Third Law of Motion

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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