Australian Politics Forum - Will Huricane Sandy force the world to act on co2?

gizmo_2655

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Re: Will Huricane Sandy force the world to act on co2?
Reply #15 - Nov 5^th, 2012 at 10:06am

Doctor Jolly wrote on Nov 5^th, 2012 at 9:59am:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Nov 5^th, 2012 at 9:55am:

Doctor Jolly wrote on Nov 5^th, 2012 at 9:47am:

FriYAY wrote on Nov 5^th, 2012 at 9:43am:

Doctor Jolly wrote on Nov 5^th, 2012 at 9:36am:

FriYAY wrote on Nov 5^th, 2012 at 9:25am:

Doctor Jolly wrote on Nov 5^th, 2012 at 9:22am:

Will Huricane Sandy, hitting home to one of the world centres, finally make the US do something about its co2 emissions ?

I think its the first step. More super-storms to follow will all chip away at the deniers stranglehold on US politics.

Can you put up the proof this storm was caused by C02 emissions please.

Lack of artic ice sheet this year, causing northern oceans to absorb much more energy, intensifing Sandy.

LOL, nice proof. Grin

What more do you want. Its pretty simple.
co2 is a green house gas. True.
We have released stored co2 (coal) for the last 100 years. True.
Nature is not re-storing that co2. True.
Co2 is therefore in the atmosphere. True.
Sea temperatures are warming because of co2. True.
Ice sheets are melting. True.
Northern waters are warming because of lack of ice sheets. True.
Hurricane intensity is directly linked to sea temperatures. True.

Its not rocket science.

What more do you want. Its pretty simple.
co2 is a green house gas. True.
We have released stored co2 (coal) for the last 100 years. True.
Nature is not re-storing that co2.

Maybe

.
Co2 is therefore in the atmosphere. True.
Sea temperatures are warming because of co2.

Maybe

.
Ice sheets are melting. True.
Northern waters are warming because of lack of ice sheets. True.
Hurricane intensity is directly linked to sea temperatures.

Unproven

.

Its not rocket science.

No it's' climate science'

Ok, tell us where Nature is storing the co2 then. Take your own life as an example. You are pumping out about 20 tonnes a year. Over say the last 40 years, thats 800 tonnes in your life. Even if nature could compact that down to an efficient storage as coal in that short space of time, you think you would have notice it stored somewhere ?

You also agreed above that co2 is a green house gas, and more co2 is in the atmosphere, but dispute that sea temperatures are warming. How can it not, if the first two are true ?

finally, huricanes and all tropical cyclones are definately related to sea temperature, because they mostly occur where the sea temperatures are favourable. Thats a simple link if ever there was one.

Actually...I was disputing that sea temperatures are warming due to Co2....Since the water temperature controls whether sea water collects or expels Co2, it's equally possible that the Co2 level is rising BECAUSE of the oceans warming, rather than the other way around...

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"I just get sick of people who place a label on someone else with their own definition.

It's similar to a strawman fallacy"
Bobbythebat

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Doctor Jolly

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Re: Will Huricane Sandy force the world to act on co2?
Reply #16 - Nov 5^th, 2012 at 10:18am

gizmo_2655 wrote on Nov 5^th, 2012 at 10:06am:

Doctor Jolly wrote on Nov 5^th, 2012 at 9:59am:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Nov 5^th, 2012 at 9:55am:

Doctor Jolly wrote on Nov 5^th, 2012 at 9:47am:

FriYAY wrote on Nov 5^th, 2012 at 9:43am:

Doctor Jolly wrote on Nov 5^th, 2012 at 9:36am:

FriYAY wrote on Nov 5^th, 2012 at 9:25am:

Doctor Jolly wrote on Nov 5^th, 2012 at 9:22am:

Will Huricane Sandy, hitting home to one of the world centres, finally make the US do something about its co2 emissions ?

I think its the first step. More super-storms to follow will all chip away at the deniers stranglehold on US politics.

Can you put up the proof this storm was caused by C02 emissions please.

Lack of artic ice sheet this year, causing northern oceans to absorb much more energy, intensifing Sandy.

LOL, nice proof. Grin

What more do you want. Its pretty simple.
co2 is a green house gas. True.
We have released stored co2 (coal) for the last 100 years. True.
Nature is not re-storing that co2. True.
Co2 is therefore in the atmosphere. True.
Sea temperatures are warming because of co2. True.
Ice sheets are melting. True.
Northern waters are warming because of lack of ice sheets. True.
Hurricane intensity is directly linked to sea temperatures. True.

Its not rocket science.

What more do you want. Its pretty simple.
co2 is a green house gas. True.
We have released stored co2 (coal) for the last 100 years. True.
Nature is not re-storing that co2.

Maybe

.
Co2 is therefore in the atmosphere. True.
Sea temperatures are warming because of co2.

Maybe

.
Ice sheets are melting. True.
Northern waters are warming because of lack of ice sheets. True.
Hurricane intensity is directly linked to sea temperatures.

Unproven

.

Its not rocket science.

No it's' climate science'

Ok, tell us where Nature is storing the co2 then. Take your own life as an example. You are pumping out about 20 tonnes a year. Over say the last 40 years, thats 800 tonnes in your life. Even if nature could compact that down to an efficient storage as coal in that short space of time, you think you would have notice it stored somewhere ?

You also agreed above that co2 is a green house gas, and more co2 is in the atmosphere, but dispute that sea temperatures are warming. How can it not, if the first two are true ?

finally, huricanes and all tropical cyclones are definately related to sea temperature, because they mostly occur where the sea temperatures are favourable. Thats a simple link if ever there was one.

Actually...I was disputing that sea temperatures are warming due to Co2....Since the water temperature controls whether sea water collects or expels Co2, it's equally possible that the Co2 level is rising BECAUSE of the oceans warming, rather than the other way around...

That defies logic. Because you know very well that we putting more co2 into the atmosphere because we are taking it out of safe storage (coal, oil), and releasing. Have been doing so for 100 odd years rising exponentially. Its an undesputed fact that we are releasing high amounts of co2 into the atmosphere "outside" the natural co2 cycle.

There is no "I dont know where the co2 is coming from" argument.

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gizmo_2655

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Re: Will Huricane Sandy force the world to act on co2?
Reply #17 - Nov 5^th, 2012 at 11:16am

Doctor Jolly wrote on Nov 5^th, 2012 at 10:18am:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Nov 5^th, 2012 at 10:06am:

Doctor Jolly wrote on Nov 5^th, 2012 at 9:59am:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Nov 5^th, 2012 at 9:55am:

Doctor Jolly wrote on Nov 5^th, 2012 at 9:47am:

FriYAY wrote on Nov 5^th, 2012 at 9:43am:

Doctor Jolly wrote on Nov 5^th, 2012 at 9:36am:

FriYAY wrote on Nov 5^th, 2012 at 9:25am:

Doctor Jolly wrote on Nov 5^th, 2012 at 9:22am:

Will Huricane Sandy, hitting home to one of the world centres, finally make the US do something about its co2 emissions ?

I think its the first step. More super-storms to follow will all chip away at the deniers stranglehold on US politics.

Can you put up the proof this storm was caused by C02 emissions please.

Lack of artic ice sheet this year, causing northern oceans to absorb much more energy, intensifing Sandy.

LOL, nice proof. Grin

What more do you want. Its pretty simple.
co2 is a green house gas. True.
We have released stored co2 (coal) for the last 100 years. True.
Nature is not re-storing that co2. True.
Co2 is therefore in the atmosphere. True.
Sea temperatures are warming because of co2. True.
Ice sheets are melting. True.
Northern waters are warming because of lack of ice sheets. True.
Hurricane intensity is directly linked to sea temperatures. True.

Its not rocket science.

What more do you want. Its pretty simple.
co2 is a green house gas. True.
We have released stored co2 (coal) for the last 100 years. True.
Nature is not re-storing that co2.

Maybe

.
Co2 is therefore in the atmosphere. True.
Sea temperatures are warming because of co2.

Maybe

.
Ice sheets are melting. True.
Northern waters are warming because of lack of ice sheets. True.
Hurricane intensity is directly linked to sea temperatures.

Unproven

.

Its not rocket science.

No it's' climate science'

Ok, tell us where Nature is storing the co2 then. Take your own life as an example. You are pumping out about 20 tonnes a year. Over say the last 40 years, thats 800 tonnes in your life. Even if nature could compact that down to an efficient storage as coal in that short space of time, you think you would have notice it stored somewhere ?

You also agreed above that co2 is a green house gas, and more co2 is in the atmosphere, but dispute that sea temperatures are warming. How can it not, if the first two are true ?

finally, huricanes and all tropical cyclones are definately related to sea temperature, because they mostly occur where the sea temperatures are favourable. Thats a simple link if ever there was one.

Actually...I was disputing that sea temperatures are warming due to Co2....Since the water temperature controls whether sea water collects or expels Co2, it's equally possible that the Co2 level is rising BECAUSE of the oceans warming, rather than the other way around...

That defies logic. Because you know very well that we putting more co2 into the atmosphere because we are taking it out of safe storage (coal, oil), and releasing. Have been doing so for 100 odd years rising exponentially. Its an undesputed fact that we are releasing high amounts of co2 into the atmosphere "outside" the natural co2 cycle.

There is no "I dont know where the co2 is coming from" argument.

Yeah, right....BUT in nature there are very few circular action/reactions....and 'Co2 makes the oceans warm, which releases Co2 which makes the oceans warm' is a massively circlular logic stream...

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"I just get sick of people who place a label on someone else with their own definition.

It's similar to a strawman fallacy"
Bobbythebat

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... Gold Member Offline Posts: 23673 WA Gender:	Re: Will Huricane Sandy force the world to act on co2? Reply #18 - Nov 5^th, 2012 at 11:24am Quote: Its not rocket science. True. It's far more complex. It makes rocket science seem easy.
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Doctor Jolly

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Re: Will Huricane Sandy force the world to act on co2?
Reply #19 - Nov 5^th, 2012 at 12:19pm

gizmo_2655 wrote on Nov 5^th, 2012 at 11:16am:

Doctor Jolly wrote on Nov 5^th, 2012 at 10:18am:

That defies logic. Because you know very well that we putting more co2 into the atmosphere because we are taking it out of safe storage (coal, oil), and releasing. Have been doing so for 100 odd years rising exponentially. Its an undesputed fact that we are releasing high amounts of co2 into the atmosphere "outside" the natural co2 cycle.

There is no "I dont know where the co2 is coming from" argument.

Yeah, right...

Huh?, You dont believe burning coal and oil produces co2 ???

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gizmo_2655

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Re: Will Huricane Sandy force the world to act on co2?
Reply #20 - Nov 5^th, 2012 at 12:21pm

Doctor Jolly wrote on Nov 5^th, 2012 at 12:19pm:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Nov 5^th, 2012 at 11:16am:

Doctor Jolly wrote on Nov 5^th, 2012 at 10:18am:

That defies logic. Because you know very well that we putting more co2 into the atmosphere because we are taking it out of safe storage (coal, oil), and releasing. Have been doing so for 100 odd years rising exponentially. Its an undesputed fact that we are releasing high amounts of co2 into the atmosphere "outside" the natural co2 cycle.

There is no "I dont know where the co2 is coming from" argument.

Yeah, right...

Huh?, You dont believe burning coal and oil produces co2 ???

Yes I do.. but I'm still waiting to be convinced that Co2 has anything to do with GW...

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"I just get sick of people who place a label on someone else with their own definition.

It's similar to a strawman fallacy"
Bobbythebat

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Doctor Jolly

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Re: Will Huricane Sandy force the world to act on co2?
Reply #21 - Nov 5^th, 2012 at 1:07pm

gizmo_2655 wrote on Nov 5^th, 2012 at 12:21pm:

Doctor Jolly wrote on Nov 5^th, 2012 at 12:19pm:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Nov 5^th, 2012 at 11:16am:

Doctor Jolly wrote on Nov 5^th, 2012 at 10:18am:

That defies logic. Because you know very well that we putting more co2 into the atmosphere because we are taking it out of safe storage (coal, oil), and releasing. Have been doing so for 100 odd years rising exponentially. Its an undesputed fact that we are releasing high amounts of co2 into the atmosphere "outside" the natural co2 cycle.

There is no "I dont know where the co2 is coming from" argument.

Yeah, right...

Huh?, You dont believe burning coal and oil produces co2 ???

Yes I do.. but I'm still waiting to be convinced that Co2 has anything to do with GW...

You dont believe co2 is a green house gas ?

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gizmo_2655

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Re: Will Huricane Sandy force the world to act on co2?
Reply #22 - Nov 5^th, 2012 at 1:22pm

Doctor Jolly wrote on Nov 5^th, 2012 at 1:07pm:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Nov 5^th, 2012 at 12:21pm:

Doctor Jolly wrote on Nov 5^th, 2012 at 12:19pm:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Nov 5^th, 2012 at 11:16am:

Doctor Jolly wrote on Nov 5^th, 2012 at 10:18am:

That defies logic. Because you know very well that we putting more co2 into the atmosphere because we are taking it out of safe storage (coal, oil), and releasing. Have been doing so for 100 odd years rising exponentially. Its an undesputed fact that we are releasing high amounts of co2 into the atmosphere "outside" the natural co2 cycle.

There is no "I dont know where the co2 is coming from" argument.

Yeah, right...

Huh?, You dont believe burning coal and oil produces co2 ???

Yes I do.. but I'm still waiting to be convinced that Co2 has anything to do with GW...

You dont believe co2 is a green house gas ?

LOL here we go...

The problem is, I'm still not convinced that the greenhouse effect is in anyway responsible for the recent/current warming, or indeed that the co2 (which IS a greenhouse gas) increase is a 'cause' rather than an 'effect'...

Put simply, the possibility exists (strongly) that the change to the worlds temperature have an entire unknown or unsuspected cause, and reducing or removing any amount of Co2 from the atmosphere won't make the slightest bit of difference to any future temperature increases, and may, in fact,
cause a catastrophic plunge in the climate...

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"I just get sick of people who place a label on someone else with their own definition.

It's similar to a strawman fallacy"
Bobbythebat

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Prevailing Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 7169 Stop Men	Re: Will Huricane Sandy force the world to act on co2? Reply #23 - Nov 5^th, 2012 at 2:57pm it makes the whole world sick how eco fascists use any human catastrophe for propaganda without any shame...this should convince us all to scrap carbon pricing and repeal the privatization of energy...
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Doctor Jolly

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Re: Will Huricane Sandy force the world to act on co2?
Reply #24 - Nov 5^th, 2012 at 3:06pm

gizmo_2655 wrote on Nov 5^th, 2012 at 1:22pm:

The problem is, I'm still not convinced that the greenhouse effect is in anyway responsible for the recent/current warming, or indeed that the co2 (which IS a greenhouse gas) increase is a 'cause' rather than an 'effect'...

Put simply, the possibility exists (strongly) that the change to the worlds temperature have an entire unknown or unsuspected cause, and reducing or removing any amount of Co2 from the atmosphere won't make the slightest bit of difference to any future temperature increases, and may, in fact,
cause a catastrophic plunge in the climate...

Its seems you are not clear on what you do and dont believe.
We know we are increasing co2 levels in the atmosphere (The simple question is, where do you think its going from burning all this coal ?). And we know co2 causes warming, because it already does.
More co2 = more warming.

Nothing earth shattering there. To cling to an argument which contradicts this bleeding obvious statement because of a belief "unknown cause" is really a bit religous, and no place in logical approaches.

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Prevailing Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 7169 Stop Men	Re: Will Huricane Sandy force the world to act on co2? Reply #25 - Nov 5^th, 2012 at 3:17pm We "know" bullsh1t...you cant tax chemical elements and sub atomic particles for the way they randomly interact with each other...the carbon Tax and climate change is neo-creationism...Original Sin anyone?
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gizmo_2655

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Re: Will Huricane Sandy force the world to act on co2?
Reply #26 - Nov 5^th, 2012 at 3:26pm

Doctor Jolly wrote on Nov 5^th, 2012 at 3:06pm:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Nov 5^th, 2012 at 1:22pm:

The problem is, I'm still not convinced that the greenhouse effect is in anyway responsible for the recent/current warming, or indeed that the co2 (which IS a greenhouse gas) increase is a 'cause' rather than an 'effect'...

Put simply, the possibility exists (strongly) that the change to the worlds temperature have an entire unknown or unsuspected cause, and reducing or removing any amount of Co2 from the atmosphere won't make the slightest bit of difference to any future temperature increases, and may, in fact,
cause a catastrophic plunge in the climate...

Its seems you are not clear on what you do and dont believe.
We know we are increasing co2 levels in the atmosphere (The simple question is, where do you think its going from burning all this coal ?). And we know co2 causes warming, because it already does.
More co2 = more warming.

Nothing earth shattering there. To cling to an argument which contradicts this bleeding obvious statement because of a belief "unknown cause" is really a bit religous, and no place in logical approaches.

That's the bit that hasn't been proven to my satisfaction yet...

And it has nothing to do with religion or politics.....just logic and scientific method.
A true scientist is always the first to admit that they don't know everything....and because it's unknown (or undiscovered) doesn't imply any 'intelligent' being at work.....it just means we may not have discovered the perfectly natural mechanism at work...

p.s automatically attempting to assign disbelief in unclear scientific methodology to a religious attitude is pathetic and childish......it would be just as easy to assign belief in AGW to the 'church of Gaia'...

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"I just get sick of people who place a label on someone else with their own definition.

It's similar to a strawman fallacy"
Bobbythebat

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Prevailing Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 7169 Stop Men	Re: Will Huricane Sandy force the world to act on co2? Reply #27 - Nov 5^th, 2012 at 3:34pm Assigning a Tax to a chemical reaction is a farce...Tax the second law of thermo-dynamics why don't you...
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Doctor Jolly

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Re: Will Huricane Sandy force the world to act on co2?
Reply #28 - Nov 5^th, 2012 at 4:03pm

gizmo_2655 wrote on Nov 5^th, 2012 at 3:26pm:

Doctor Jolly wrote on Nov 5^th, 2012 at 3:06pm:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Nov 5^th, 2012 at 1:22pm:

The problem is, I'm still not convinced that the greenhouse effect is in anyway responsible for the recent/current warming, or indeed that the co2 (which IS a greenhouse gas) increase is a 'cause' rather than an 'effect'...

Put simply, the possibility exists (strongly) that the change to the worlds temperature have an entire unknown or unsuspected cause, and reducing or removing any amount of Co2 from the atmosphere won't make the slightest bit of difference to any future temperature increases, and may, in fact,
cause a catastrophic plunge in the climate...

Its seems you are not clear on what you do and dont believe.
We know we are increasing co2 levels in the atmosphere (The simple question is, where do you think its going from burning all this coal ?). And we know co2 causes warming, because it already does.
More co2 = more warming.

Nothing earth shattering there. To cling to an argument which contradicts this bleeding obvious statement because of a belief "unknown cause" is really a bit religous, and no place in logical approaches.

That's the bit that hasn't been proven to my satisfaction yet...

And it has nothing to do with religion or politics.....just logic and scientific method.
A true scientist is always the first to admit that they don't know everything....and because it's unknown (or undiscovered) doesn't imply any 'intelligent' being at work.....it just means we may not have discovered the perfectly natural mechanism at work...

p.s automatically attempting to assign disbelief in unclear scientific methodology to a religious attitude is pathetic and childish......it would be just as easy to assign belief in AGW to the 'church of Gaia'...

Thats just silly. Co2 being a green house gas, and its thermo properties keeping the earth warmer than it would be without co2 in the atmosphere has been known since the 1950's.... probably earlier.

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Doctor Jolly

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Re: Will Huricane Sandy force the world to act on co2?
Reply #29 - Nov 5^th, 2012 at 4:04pm

Prevailing wrote on Nov 5^th, 2012 at 3:34pm:

Assigning a Tax to a chemical reaction is a farce...Tax the second law of thermo-dynamics why don't you...

Assigning a penalty rate on polution has been pretty standard practice in modern economies for some time.

You pour acid into the river, you get fined. You dont pour acid into the river, you dont.

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