Australian Politics Forum - Carbon Tax: Repeal or not repeal

longweekend58

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Re: Carbon Tax: Repeal or not repeal
Reply #15 - Jun 11^th, 2012 at 4:19pm

Dnarever wrote on Jun 11^th, 2012 at 4:12pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 11^th, 2012 at 4:05pm:

Dnarever wrote on Jun 11^th, 2012 at 12:25pm:

There is one major reason that Abbnott will not repeal the Carbon tax - He can't do it.

really? he cant put up legisltaion in the lower house and then submit it to the senate? not really hard at all. if they reject it twice then it goes to a DD and a joint sitting in which case it WILL be passed. Not simple for sure, but a long way short of impossible.

Abbnott does not care about a carbon price after all a Tax is his idea of the best method - all his spluttering in reality is about political opportunism and has nothing to do with what he thinks is best for Australia.

In the most likely time frame for a DD election Tnoy would be well aware that to pull the trigger is going to cost him at least 15 seats and probably over 20.

He will not take that risk over a policy which in reality he agrees with.

thats a bit presumptuous, is it not? you have zero ability to know that and conventional wisdom would actually suggest the opposite. After Whitlams flogging in 1975, Fraser went to an early election in 1977 with zero particular reason and Whitlam was flogged again but virtually the same margin. Abbott would be taking no chance at all. It would be a hated carbon tax that labor senators refuse to remove even with a massive mandate. And you want to think that Abbott woudl suffer in that environment? There is actually a possibility he could gain seats and especially in the senate. Its a small risk to Abbott but a HUGE risk the Labor not to pass the repeal.

But What Id really like you to answer is why you think Labor isnt obligated to support the repeal in line with a massive mandate just as they demanded the coalition support the workchoiecs repeal? This isnt a question of politics or timeing of DD etc. This is an issue about the conventions and principles of parliament. If they breach that convention then they will destroy themselves for a generation.

Do you not yet realise thatr much of the opposition to a CT is not on the tax itself but rather the breathtaking breach of an election promise? She was reneging on it withing days of the election. THAT is what people are really hating. The deceitful manner in which it was brought about. And that is why labor supporters are among the large number of people demanding it be repealed. And you really dont want to antagonise them by encouraging them to vote Liberal in the senate while maintaining their lower house allegiance to Labor.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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Dnarever

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Re: Carbon Tax: Repeal or not repeal
Reply #16 - Jun 11^th, 2012 at 4:50pm

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 11^th, 2012 at 4:19pm:

Dnarever wrote on Jun 11^th, 2012 at 4:12pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 11^th, 2012 at 4:05pm:

Dnarever wrote on Jun 11^th, 2012 at 12:25pm:

There is one major reason that Abbnott will not repeal the Carbon tax - He can't do it.

really? he cant put up legisltaion in the lower house and then submit it to the senate? not really hard at all. if they reject it twice then it goes to a DD and a joint sitting in which case it WILL be passed. Not simple for sure, but a long way short of impossible.

Abbnott does not care about a carbon price after all a Tax is his idea of the best method - all his spluttering in reality is about political opportunism and has nothing to do with what he thinks is best for Australia.

In the most likely time frame for a DD election Tnoy would be well aware that to pull the trigger is going to cost him at least 15 seats and probably over 20.

He will not take that risk over a policy which in reality he agrees with.

thats a bit presumptuous, is it not? you have zero ability to know that and conventional wisdom would actually suggest the opposite. After Whitlams flogging in 1975, Fraser went to an early election in 1977 with zero particular reason and Whitlam was flogged again but virtually the same margin.

The 77 election was needed to bring the senate elections back in line following the 75 election as well as a predicted deterioration of economic conditions with Whitlam still at the Labor helm - Fraser thought it was his best chance..

The government offering tax cuts to voters and ran advertisements with the slogan "fistful of dollars". The tax cuts were never delivered; instead a "temporary surcharge" was imposed in 1978. The election coincided with the retirement of the Governor-General, Sir John Kerr. Kerr had appeared drunk at the Melbourne Cup in November and the public outcry resulted in the cancellation of his appointment as Ambassador to UNESCO.

http://australianpolitics.com/elections/1977/

Typical of Liberals go to an election promising tax cuts and in power deliver a new tax instead. Apparently it is only a lie if told by Labor.

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Dnarever

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Re: Carbon Tax: Repeal or not repeal
Reply #17 - Jun 11^th, 2012 at 5:16pm

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 11^th, 2012 at 4:19pm:

thats a bit presumptuous, is it not? you have zero ability to know that and conventional wisdom would actually suggest the opposite. After Whitlams flogging in 1975, Fraser went to an early election in 1977 with zero particular reason and Whitlam was flogged again but virtually the same margin. Abbott would be taking no chance at all. It would be a hated carbon tax that labor senators refuse to remove even with a massive mandate. And you want to think that Abbott woudl suffer in that environment? There is actually a possibility he could gain seats and especially in the senate. Its a small risk to Abbott but a HUGE risk the Labor not to pass the repeal.

But What Id really like you to answer is why you think Labor isnt obligated to support the repeal in line with a massive mandate just as they demanded the coalition support the workchoiecs repeal? This isnt a question of politics or timeing of DD etc. This is an issue about the conventions and principles of parliament. If they breach that convention then they will destroy themselves for a generation.

Do you not yet realise thatr much of the opposition to a CT is not on the tax itself but rather the breathtaking breach of an election promise? She was reneging on it withing days of the election. THAT is what people are really hating. The deceitful manner in which it was brought about. And that is why labor supporters are among the large number of people demanding it be repealed. And you really dont want to antagonise them by encouraging them to vote Liberal in the senate while maintaining their lower house allegiance to Labor.

It would be a hated carbon tax that labor senators refuse to remove even with a massive mandate.

By 2013 not many will care about a carbon price - by a DD election towards 2015 I doulbt they will even remember there was a problem.

If Abbnott has a large majority the electorate will more than likely look at moderating the excess and the natural tendancy will be to move toward a more normalised position, they will not keep the rage particularly since it is only manufactured and not genuine.

support the repeal in line with a massive mandate just as they demanded the coalition support the workchoiecs repeal? This isnt a question of politics or timeing of DD etc. This is an issue about the conventions and principles of parliament.

You did not look at Abbnott scuttling the ETS in the same light with a huge mandate supported by Labor and the Liberals in place? You rather have the horse in front of the cart - first lets see if there really is a mandate of any type and if so would it naturally lead the Greens or Labor to abandon their position because of the dishonest opposition we have seen.

It may well end up a good idea to support the change as I am fairly certain that it is the last thing the Liberals would want, Technically it would be very difficult to remove at that time (almost impossible) and the Liberals clearly can not afford to do it let alone replace it with their new costly ineffective system.

The Liberals I suspect would be very happy to be forced to keep the carbon price as is till the new trading system commences. In reality they would be more likely to try and modify the transition more in line with their preferences.

You make a big deal about a broken promise which if it was broken it wasn't by much and had little impact, it is interesting the way people who go on about this were happy to stand behind the Howard government and an absolute mountain of lies on almost any topic they approached.

We have a fixed price as an interim solution which is called a tax - a tax where nobody ever pays any tax at all. Labor always indicated they were moving towards a price on carbon with a preferred ETS, the difference is miniscule, well the difference is that it can by the smallest margin be label as a tax by the guy who believed that a real tax is the best option.

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John Smith

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Re: Carbon Tax: Repeal or not repeal
Reply #18 - Jun 11^th, 2012 at 5:33pm

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 11^th, 2012 at 4:19pm:

Dnarever wrote on Jun 11^th, 2012 at 4:12pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 11^th, 2012 at 4:05pm:

Dnarever wrote on Jun 11^th, 2012 at 12:25pm:

There is one major reason that Abbnott will not repeal the Carbon tax - He can't do it.

really? he cant put up legisltaion in the lower house and then submit it to the senate? not really hard at all. if they reject it twice then it goes to a DD and a joint sitting in which case it WILL be passed. Not simple for sure, but a long way short of impossible.

Abbnott does not care about a carbon price after all a Tax is his idea of the best method - all his spluttering in reality is about political opportunism and has nothing to do with what he thinks is best for Australia.

In the most likely time frame for a DD election Tnoy would be well aware that to pull the trigger is going to cost him at least 15 seats and probably over 20.

He will not take that risk over a policy which in reality he agrees with.

thats a bit presumptuous, is it not? you have zero ability to know that and conventional wisdom would actually suggest the opposite. After Whitlams flogging in 1975, Fraser went to an early election in 1977 with zero particular reason and Whitlam was flogged again but virtually the same margin. Abbott would be taking no chance at all. It would be a hated carbon tax that labor senators refuse to remove even with a massive mandate. And you want to think that Abbott woudl suffer in that environment? There is actually a possibility he could gain seats and especially in the senate. Its a small risk to Abbott but a HUGE risk the Labor not to pass the repeal.

But What Id really like you to answer is why you think Labor isnt obligated to support the repeal in line with a massive mandate just as they demanded the coalition support the workchoiecs repeal? This isnt a question of politics or timeing of DD etc. This is an issue about the conventions and principles of parliament. If they breach that convention then they will destroy themselves for a generation.

Do you not yet realise thatr much of the opposition to a CT is not on the tax itself but rather the breathtaking breach of an election promise? She was reneging on it withing days of the election. THAT is what people are really hating. The deceitful manner in which it was brought about. And that is why labor supporters are among the large number of people demanding it be repealed. And you really dont want to antagonise them by encouraging them to vote Liberal in the senate while maintaining their lower house allegiance to Labor.

presumptious is this idea that you have that if Abbott were to win the next election the ALP and the greens would support him in removing the carbon tax .... why would they want to remove something they fought so hard for? ....

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Our esteemed leader:
I hope that bitch who was running their brothels for them gets raped with a cactus.

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longweekend58

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Re: Carbon Tax: Repeal or not repeal
Reply #19 - Jun 11^th, 2012 at 5:41pm

Dnarever wrote on Jun 11^th, 2012 at 4:50pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 11^th, 2012 at 4:19pm:

Dnarever wrote on Jun 11^th, 2012 at 4:12pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 11^th, 2012 at 4:05pm:

Dnarever wrote on Jun 11^th, 2012 at 12:25pm:

There is one major reason that Abbnott will not repeal the Carbon tax - He can't do it.

really? he cant put up legisltaion in the lower house and then submit it to the senate? not really hard at all. if they reject it twice then it goes to a DD and a joint sitting in which case it WILL be passed. Not simple for sure, but a long way short of impossible.

Abbnott does not care about a carbon price after all a Tax is his idea of the best method - all his spluttering in reality is about political opportunism and has nothing to do with what he thinks is best for Australia.

In the most likely time frame for a DD election Tnoy would be well aware that to pull the trigger is going to cost him at least 15 seats and probably over 20.

He will not take that risk over a policy which in reality he agrees with.

thats a bit presumptuous, is it not? you have zero ability to know that and conventional wisdom would actually suggest the opposite. After Whitlams flogging in 1975, Fraser went to an early election in 1977 with zero particular reason and Whitlam was flogged again but virtually the same margin.

The 77 election was needed to bring the senate elections back in line following the 75 election as well as a predicted deterioration of economic conditions with Whitlam still at the Labor helm - Fraser thought it was his best chance..

The government offering tax cuts to voters and ran advertisements with the slogan "fistful of dollars". The tax cuts were never delivered; instead a "temporary surcharge" was imposed in 1978. The election coincided with the retirement of the Governor-General, Sir John Kerr. Kerr had appeared drunk at the Melbourne Cup in November and the public outcry resulted in the cancellation of his appointment as Ambassador to UNESCO.

http://australianpolitics.com/elections/1977/

Typical of Liberals go to an election promising tax cuts and in power deliver a new tax instead. Apparently it is only a lie if told by Labor.

seriously... L.A.W. tax cuts anyone??? and lets not forget the carbon tax!

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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longweekend58

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Re: Carbon Tax: Repeal or not repeal
Reply #20 - Jun 11^th, 2012 at 5:44pm

FROM DNA:

Quote:

By 2013 not many will care about a carbon price - by a DD election towards 2015 I doulbt they will even remember there was a problem.

If Abbott has a large majority the electorate will more than likely look at moderating the excess and the natural tendancy will be to move toward a more normalised position, they will not keep the rage particularly since it is only manufactured and not genuine.

nothing you have said fits historical experience nor any reasonable expectation of behaviour among voters. Youve been at the forefront for the last 2.5 years saying that the coalitions vote will wane etc and instead it is at almost record levels. You really dont get that the CT is not so much OPPOSED as it is HATED. Not so much because if what it is but rather the arrogant decietful manner in which it was brought about. Just as they hate labor in 75 they still hated them just as badly in 77.

get used to it.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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longweekend58

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Re: Carbon Tax: Repeal or not repeal
Reply #21 - Jun 11^th, 2012 at 5:47pm

John Smith wrote on Jun 11^th, 2012 at 5:33pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 11^th, 2012 at 4:19pm:

Dnarever wrote on Jun 11^th, 2012 at 4:12pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 11^th, 2012 at 4:05pm:

Dnarever wrote on Jun 11^th, 2012 at 12:25pm:

There is one major reason that Abbnott will not repeal the Carbon tax - He can't do it.

really? he cant put up legisltaion in the lower house and then submit it to the senate? not really hard at all. if they reject it twice then it goes to a DD and a joint sitting in which case it WILL be passed. Not simple for sure, but a long way short of impossible.

Abbnott does not care about a carbon price after all a Tax is his idea of the best method - all his spluttering in reality is about political opportunism and has nothing to do with what he thinks is best for Australia.

In the most likely time frame for a DD election Tnoy would be well aware that to pull the trigger is going to cost him at least 15 seats and probably over 20.

He will not take that risk over a policy which in reality he agrees with.

thats a bit presumptuous, is it not? you have zero ability to know that and conventional wisdom would actually suggest the opposite. After Whitlams flogging in 1975, Fraser went to an early election in 1977 with zero particular reason and Whitlam was flogged again but virtually the same margin. Abbott would be taking no chance at all. It would be a hated carbon tax that labor senators refuse to remove even with a massive mandate. And you want to think that Abbott woudl suffer in that environment? There is actually a possibility he could gain seats and especially in the senate. Its a small risk to Abbott but a HUGE risk the Labor not to pass the repeal.

But What Id really like you to answer is why you think Labor isnt obligated to support the repeal in line with a massive mandate just as they demanded the coalition support the workchoiecs repeal? This isnt a question of politics or timeing of DD etc. This is an issue about the conventions and principles of parliament. If they breach that convention then they will destroy themselves for a generation.

Do you not yet realise thatr much of the opposition to a CT is not on the tax itself but rather the breathtaking breach of an election promise? She was reneging on it withing days of the election. THAT is what people are really hating. The deceitful manner in which it was brought about. And that is why labor supporters are among the large number of people demanding it be repealed. And you really dont want to antagonise them by encouraging them to vote Liberal in the senate while maintaining their lower house allegiance to Labor.

presumptious is this idea that you have that if Abbott were to win the next election the ALP and the greens would support him in removing the carbon tax .... why would they want to remove something they fought so hard for? ....

its called PRINCIPLE. it is where you do something you dont personally like becuase it is the RIGHT thing to do. it is where you recognise that as REPRESENTATIVES of the people you are honour bound to reflect their opinions.

I personally expect the labor party to support the repeal either officially or via a crossing of the floor. Not everyone in labor is so stupid as to wish upon themselves a generation in opposition all for the price of refusing to repeal hated legisltiaon that will end up being removed in a joint sitting anyhow.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 53227 At my desk.	Re: Carbon Tax: Repeal or not repeal Reply #22 - Jun 11^th, 2012 at 6:11pm The real reason is that our society wants action on climate change, and all the alternatives are worse for our economy.
Back to top	People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words. IP Logged

longweekend58

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Re: Carbon Tax: Repeal or not repeal
Reply #23 - Jun 11^th, 2012 at 6:14pm

freediver wrote on Jun 11^th, 2012 at 6:11pm:

The real reason is that our society wants action on climate change, and all the alternatives are worse for our economy.

really? care to support that using REAL statistics and not a poll that asks 'do you believe in climate change'?

Regardless of your opinion on ACC, it is not reasonable to state that a mjority agree with you. 5 years ago maybe, but not now. The tide has turned and liek it or not, it is the truth.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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Maqqa Gold Member Offline 14% - that low?! Posts: 16000	Re: Carbon Tax: Repeal or not repeal Reply #24 - Jun 11^th, 2012 at 6:16pm freediver wrote on Jun 11^th, 2012 at 6:11pm: The real reason is that our society wants action on climate change, and all the alternatives are worse for our economy. Why does society want action on climate change when there is no proof this action will lower global temperature
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progressiveslol Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 17029	Re: Carbon Tax: Repeal or not repeal Reply #25 - Jun 11^th, 2012 at 6:21pm The problem for labor is they want us to pay to breath. They want the poor to freeze. They want us to swallow a lie. They dont listen to us about the lie. And most of all, they dont listen to us when we vote for a certain criteria in an election. This will not be forgotten.
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BatteriesNotIncluded

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people died for this!

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Re: Carbon Tax: Repeal or not repeal
Reply #26 - Jun 11^th, 2012 at 6:22pm

Maqqa wrote on Jun 11^th, 2012 at 6:16pm:

freediver wrote on Jun 11^th, 2012 at 6:11pm:

The real reason is that our society wants action on climate change, and all the alternatives are worse for our economy.

Why does society want action on climate change when there is no proof this action will lower global temperature

Lol, maqqa has founded a lost argument again!!

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*Sure....they're anti competitive as any subsidised job is. It wouldn't be there without the tax payer. Very damned difficult for a brainwashed collectivist to understand that I know.... (swaggy) *

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freediver

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At my desk.

Re: Carbon Tax: Repeal or not repeal
Reply #27 - Jun 11^th, 2012 at 6:22pm

Maqqa wrote on Jun 11^th, 2012 at 6:16pm:

freediver wrote on Jun 11^th, 2012 at 6:11pm:

The real reason is that our society wants action on climate change, and all the alternatives are worse for our economy.

Why does society want action on climate change when there is no proof this action will lower global temperature

Because most people understand rational risk management.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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progressiveslol

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Re: Carbon Tax: Repeal or not repeal
Reply #28 - Jun 11^th, 2012 at 6:22pm

freediver wrote on Jun 11^th, 2012 at 6:22pm:

Maqqa wrote on Jun 11^th, 2012 at 6:16pm:

freediver wrote on Jun 11^th, 2012 at 6:11pm:

The real reason is that our society wants action on climate change, and all the alternatives are worse for our economy.

Why does society want action on climate change when there is no proof this action will lower global temperature

Because most people understand rational risk management.

They understand BS pseudo science too and opportunistic socialists.

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BatteriesNotIncluded

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people died for this!

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Re: Carbon Tax: Repeal or not repeal
Reply #29 - Jun 11^th, 2012 at 6:24pm

progressiveslol wrote on Jun 11^th, 2012 at 6:22pm:

freediver wrote on Jun 11^th, 2012 at 6:22pm:

Maqqa wrote on Jun 11^th, 2012 at 6:16pm:

freediver wrote on Jun 11^th, 2012 at 6:11pm:

The real reason is that our society wants action on climate change, and all the alternatives are worse for our economy.

Why does society want action on climate change when there is no proof this action will lower global temperature

Because most people understand rational risk management.

They understand BS pseudo science too and opportunistic socilaists.

progs lol has nada!

Hows that strategy of chewing up the worlds entire internet address space going mate?

Ya been sleeping well I trust....!!???!!! Kiss

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*Sure....they're anti competitive as any subsidised job is. It wouldn't be there without the tax payer. Very damned difficult for a brainwashed collectivist to understand that I know.... (swaggy) *

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