Australian Politics Forum - Compulsory Voting

corporate_whitey Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 8896 Archivist	Re: Compulsory Voting Reply #45 - Apr 20^th, 2012 at 3:23pm We who dont want a carbon tax are the ill informed that the Greens do not want voting..take that away and we will be living in cardboard boxes under bridges like they do in America. This is an extremely cynical, ruthless and perverse agenda for self interest.
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darkhall67

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Re: Compulsory Voting
Reply #46 - Apr 20^th, 2012 at 3:25pm

BigOl64 wrote on Apr 20^th, 2012 at 3:18pm:

darkhall67 wrote on Apr 20^th, 2012 at 2:54pm:

Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Apr 20^th, 2012 at 2:38pm:

They shouldn't call themselves democratic then.

A list of countries that have compulsory voting. It's a short list. Five countries that enforce their citizens to vote.

Australia
Belgium
Italy-not enforced
Luxembourg
Greece-not enforced
Argentina
Brazil

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voter_turnout

And not a dictatorial totalitarian repressive regime among them.

How about

singapore
zimbawe
libya
honduras
boliva
mexico
egypt

Yeah forcing people to vote in elections is a true sign of a thriving democracy, isn't it?

The UN charter for Human Rights Article 21 thinks that it should be a right, and most first world countries do to.

Article 21.

(1) Everyone has the right to take part in the government of his country, directly or through freely chosen representatives.
(2) Everyone has the right of equal access to public service in his country.
(3) The will of the people shall be the basis of the authority of government; this will shall be expressed in periodic and genuine elections which shall be by universal and equal suffrage and shall be held by secret vote or by equivalent free voting procedures.

Nothing in there precludes compulsory voting.

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BigOl64

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Re: Compulsory Voting
Reply #47 - Apr 20^th, 2012 at 3:28pm

darkhall67 wrote on Apr 20^th, 2012 at 3:23pm:

Isnt australia a thriving democracy?

And yet we have compulsory voting.

So there is no causative link between having compulsory voting and being undemocratic or repressive.

The fact that we have compulsory voting, a thriving economy , enormous freedoms and are governed extraordinarily well means that we are obviously doing something right.

Thriving, no

We are a democracy, just not one that believes in basic humans rights, you might notice we don't have those codified either.

We live in a country of legal obligations and government mandated privileges, which can be removed at any time.

Being forced to vote has not made us any more politically aware than those poor schmucks in some third world dung heap.

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BigOl64

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Re: Compulsory Voting
Reply #48 - Apr 20^th, 2012 at 3:31pm

darkhall67 wrote on Apr 20^th, 2012 at 3:25pm:

Article 21.

(1) Everyone has the right to take part in the government of his country, directly or through freely chosen representatives.
(2) Everyone has the right of equal access to public service in his country.
(3) The will of the people shall be the basis of the authority of government; this will shall be expressed in periodic and genuine elections which shall be by universal and equal suffrage and shall be held by secret vote or by equivalent free voting procedures.

Nothing in there precludes compulsory voting.

Except that nasty little word 'right'; if only it meant being forced to do something instead of having a choice to do something we would be a superstar democracy.

Being forced under penalty is not a 'right' it is an obligation

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darkhall67

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Re: Compulsory Voting
Reply #49 - Apr 20^th, 2012 at 3:41pm

BigOl64 wrote on Apr 20^th, 2012 at 3:31pm:

darkhall67 wrote on Apr 20^th, 2012 at 3:25pm:

Article 21.

(1) Everyone has the right to take part in the government of his country, directly or through freely chosen representatives.
(2) Everyone has the right of equal access to public service in his country.
(3) The will of the people shall be the basis of the authority of government; this will shall be expressed in periodic and genuine elections which shall be by universal and equal suffrage and shall be held by secret vote or by equivalent free voting procedures.

Nothing in there precludes compulsory voting.

Except that nasty little word 'right'; if only it meant being forced to do something instead of having a choice to do something we would be a superstar democracy.

Being forced under penalty is not a 'right' it is an obligation

That's surely saying that everybody in every nation should have the right to vote. Meaning no dictatorships.

I dont read that as meaning "voluntary" voting .

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Uncle Meat Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 2434 Tasmania Gender:	Re: Compulsory Voting Reply #50 - Apr 20^th, 2012 at 3:45pm BigOl64 wrote on Apr 20^th, 2012 at 3:31pm: Being forced under penalty is not a 'right' it is an obligation It's both. Voting is still a right, however, the threat of penalty makes it an obligation as well.
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BigOl64

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Re: Compulsory Voting
Reply #51 - Apr 20^th, 2012 at 3:46pm

darkhall67 wrote on Apr 20^th, 2012 at 3:41pm:

BigOl64 wrote on Apr 20^th, 2012 at 3:31pm:

darkhall67 wrote on Apr 20^th, 2012 at 3:25pm:

Article 21.

(1) Everyone has the right to take part in the government of his country, directly or through freely chosen representatives.
(2) Everyone has the right of equal access to public service in his country.
(3) The will of the people shall be the basis of the authority of government; this will shall be expressed in periodic and genuine elections which shall be by universal and equal suffrage and shall be held by secret vote or by equivalent free voting procedures.

Nothing in there precludes compulsory voting.

Except that nasty little word 'right'; if only it meant being forced to do something instead of having a choice to do something we would be a superstar democracy.

Being forced under penalty is not a 'right' it is an obligation

That's surely saying that everybody in every nation should have the right to vote. Meaning no dictatorships.

I dont read that as meaning "voluntary" voting .

Sadly that's exactly what the word right means when it is applied to voting, that is why first world countries treat their citizens like adult and give them that right.

Rights and obligations are not interchangeable, notice no-one ever says you have a right to pay taxes.

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BigOl64

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Re: Compulsory Voting
Reply #52 - Apr 20^th, 2012 at 3:54pm

Uncle Meat wrote on Apr 20^th, 2012 at 3:45pm:

BigOl64 wrote on Apr 20^th, 2012 at 3:31pm:

Being forced under penalty is not a 'right' it is an obligation

It's both.

Voting is still a right, however, the threat of penalty makes it an obligation as well.

You must have a different dictionary than me.

Even the AEC says it's an obligation, they never refer to voting as a right, only as your obligation.

Why don't those who demand a nanny state compulsory voting quasi democratic society just use the words that are written?

You call it what it is, an obligation enforced by penalty and if you believe that is how a good democracy works, then fine. But don't lie about what it is and make out we're the same as the rest of the first world.

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Uncle Meat Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 2434 Tasmania Gender:	Re: Compulsory Voting Reply #53 - Apr 20^th, 2012 at 3:56pm BigOl64 wrote on Apr 20^th, 2012 at 3:46pm: Rights and obligations are not interchangeable, notice no-one ever says you have a right to pay taxes. Nobody is suggesting they are. However, something can be both.
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Ex Dame Pansi

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Re: Compulsory Voting
Reply #54 - Apr 20^th, 2012 at 3:59pm

For those who want to keep compulsory voting.

What do you think would happen if we made voting optional?

What exactly would be bad about optional voting?

Lack of participation?

I would think that could be a major drawback. Australians are not politically inclined, they'd much rather a schooner and a footy match than politics.

If voting was optional do you think only those with political interests would vote?

What percentage of people do you think would turn up to vote if it was optional?

Do you think the pollie with the most friends and family would win?

Do you think the candidate with the most wealth would win (like in America)?

Would we end up with Clive Palmer and Gina Rhinehart running the nation? wait! they already do lol

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"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace." Hendrix
andrei said: Great isn't it? Seeing boatloads of what is nothing more than human garbage turn up.....

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Annie Anthrax

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Re: Compulsory Voting
Reply #55 - Apr 20^th, 2012 at 4:02pm

BigOl64 wrote on Apr 20^th, 2012 at 3:28pm:

darkhall67 wrote on Apr 20^th, 2012 at 3:23pm:

Isnt australia a thriving democracy?

And yet we have compulsory voting.

So there is no causative link between having compulsory voting and being undemocratic or repressive.

The fact that we have compulsory voting, a thriving economy , enormous freedoms and are governed extraordinarily well means that we are obviously doing something right.

Thriving, no

We are a democracy, just not one that believes in basic humans rights, you might notice we don't have those codified either.

We live in a country of legal obligations and government mandated privileges, which can be removed at any time.

Being forced to vote has not made us any more politically aware than those poor schmucks in some third world dung heap.

I'm with you on this one.

If people don't want to vote for a say in how our country is governed, then they can live with the consequences. They shouldn't be forced to tick a box if they don't understand the issues and they don't want to participate.

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« Last Edit: Apr 20^th, 2012 at 4:52pm by Annie Anthrax »

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Uncle Meat

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Re: Compulsory Voting
Reply #56 - Apr 20^th, 2012 at 4:06pm

BigOl64 wrote on Apr 20^th, 2012 at 3:54pm:

You must have a different dictionary than me.

Even the AEC says it's an obligation, they never refer to voting as a right, only as your obligation.

Nobody is saying it is not an obligation.

Voting in Australia is an obligation. No doubt about it.

However, it is also a right.

The terms are mutually exclusive.

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« Last Edit: Apr 20^th, 2012 at 4:24pm by Uncle Meat »

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BigOl64

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Re: Compulsory Voting
Reply #57 - Apr 20^th, 2012 at 4:08pm

Uncle Meat wrote on Apr 20^th, 2012 at 3:56pm:

BigOl64 wrote on Apr 20^th, 2012 at 3:46pm:

Rights and obligations are not interchangeable, notice no-one ever says you have a right to pay taxes.

Nobody is suggesting they are.

However, something can be both.

Not these two words.

They are not even similar in meaning, so I can't see how you think so. Neither I nor the AEC think that your vote is somehow a right, some you choose to exercise and an obligation something you are forced to do.

It just doesn't make any sense.

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BigOl64

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Re: Compulsory Voting
Reply #58 - Apr 20^th, 2012 at 4:12pm

Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Apr 20^th, 2012 at 3:59pm:

For those who want to keep compulsory voting.

What do you think would happen if we made voting optional?

What exactly would be bad about optional voting?

Lack of participation?

I would think that could be a major drawback. Australians are not politically inclined, they'd much rather a schooner and a footy match than politics.

If voting was optional do you think only those with political interests would vote?

What percentage of people do you think would turn up to vote if it was optional?

Do you think the pollie with the most friends and family would win?

Do you think the candidate with the most wealth would win (like in America)?

Would we end up with Clive Palmer and Gina Rhinehart running the nation? wait! they already do lol

\

Nearly every other first world democracy seems to not have any problems with the right to vote, I can't see why we would.

I find it offensive in the extreme that politicians think so little of the electorate that they must force us to the polls under penalty, as if somehow we fail to comprehend the most basic of civic duties when presented as a right.

This is not the actions of a robust democracy.

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Uncle Meat Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 2434 Tasmania Gender:	Re: Compulsory Voting Reply #59 - Apr 20^th, 2012 at 4:14pm BigOl64 wrote on Apr 20^th, 2012 at 4:08pm: Not these two words. Yes, most certainly.
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Poll
Question: Should Voting be Compulsory in Australia?
Yes 7 (43.8%) No 9 (56.2%) Total votes: 16 « Created by: Sir Spot of Borg on: Apr 20^th, 2012 at 8:35am »