Australian Politics Forum - the US is/isn't and empire

Soren

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the US is/isn't and empire
Apr 11^th, 2012 at 2:36pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 11^th, 2012 at 12:07pm:

Soren wrote on Apr 11^th, 2012 at 9:31am:

I do not think it is useful to conflate national interests with imperial ambitions.

The US i certainly a mighty big country economically and militarily and culturally. As a consequence, it has unusually large spheres of interests. Conducting business without undue hindrance is one of its national interests. That requires ... ere... peacekeping military bases. There is a certain amount of irony in that, of course, but the solid point remains: the US military bases are not dotted around th globe to facilitate territorial expansion but to ensure that there is peace in which the business of conducting business can be pursued.

If you are a country also interested in the peaceful pursuit of business, without monsteruing your own people, you are, by definition, a friend of America. You want to hinder business and/or monster your own people or your neighbours -you are in America's cross-hairs. But I do not think that this is the same as imperial ambition. What would be the point of being the most powerful country if you had to let every little pissant country kick sand in your face?

Imperial ambition is part of the national interest for rich and powerful nations. Even China, which so far has largely avoided the traps of imperialism, will I believe, ultimately succumb inevitably to an overt form of imperialism as foreign issues become increasingly more influential over domestic ones. Chinese hysteria over who speaks to the Dalai Lama indicates that China would easily be tempted to use imperialistic means to ensure Sino supremacy in its perceived 'sphere of influence' It is highly probable in the near future that China will openly dictate to Australia who we may trade with and what we may sell.

Like all foreign policy, US foreign policy is founded, as it must be, on national self-interest, which, in the case of the US, is imbued with the instruments of empire (being among other things the military and the arms industry).

Zimbabwe is an example of a nation that certainly does not conform to American constitutional ideals yet has not prompted the US to invade... The determining factor for the US is whether or not the 'offending' nation threatens (or is perceived to threaten) the US economy or security.

However, no empire dismantles itself voluntarily nor would it be possible to do so and the US is no exception.

The idea that the US does not have an empire in the classic sense works very well as internal propaganda, but is treated with bemused derision within former imperial nations like Britain and Turkey.

To my mind you give a good example of a country with imperial ambitions (China) and contrast it with the US which doesn't display any of these reflexes to control.

Wanting free, open societies instead of monstrous dictatorships may be construed as a dictatiorship of 'nice' but only if you are a post-modernist. The US does not want closed, dogmatic countries to rival it or hinder it in any way.

Germany is as successful an exporting nation as any, including China. yet it has no quarrel with the US because it is open, free (insofar as it is possible under EU rule) and is competing fairly.
Any economic quarrel between the EU and the US is about subsidies. Where there is no subsidy or distortion, there is no quarrel.

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« Last Edit: Apr 11^th, 2012 at 2:43pm by Soren »

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bobbythefap1 Gold Member Offline Posts: 7026 Listen now to the rain	Re: the US is/isn't and empire Reply #1 - Apr 11^th, 2012 at 2:41pm All I know is that it is controlled by dictatorship.
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Soren Gold Member Offline Posts: 25654 Gender:	Re: the US is/isn't and empire Reply #2 - Apr 11^th, 2012 at 2:44pm bobbythefap1 wrote on Apr 11^th, 2012 at 2:41pm: All I know is that it is controlled by dictatorship. And you don't even know that.
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bobbythefap1

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Re: the US is/isn't and empire
Reply #3 - Apr 11^th, 2012 at 2:48pm

Soren wrote on Apr 11^th, 2012 at 2:44pm:

bobbythefap1 wrote on Apr 11^th, 2012 at 2:41pm:

All I know is that it is controlled by dictatorship.

And you don't even know that.

Quote:

dic·ta·tor·ship
[dik-tey-ter-ship, dik-tey-]
noun
1.
a country, government, or the form of government in which absolute power is exercised by a dictator.
2.
absolute, imperious, or overbearing power or control.
3.
the office or position held by a dictator.

Yep the only difference is that the true dictators hide behind an illusion of choice i.e. the voting system.

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Sir Spot of Borg

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Re: the US is/isn't and empire
Reply #4 - Apr 11^th, 2012 at 3:06pm

bobbythefap1 wrote on Apr 11^th, 2012 at 2:41pm:

All I know is that it is controlled by dictatorship.

How is America a dictatorship? Obama doesnt have absolute power - in fact the last couple years congress has blocked almost everything he has wanted to do (except sign ACTA). What John Howard had was closer to a dictatorship.

I am not a scholar in the field of politics but it seems to me that most political decisions in america are made by big money/companies. They dictate what they want. Except for military I dont know what is going on there but they are very imperialist it seems. They think only of america (which is thier right i suppose) without taking into account any other countries except for how they can keep them under control.

SOB

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bobbythefap1

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Re: the US is/isn't and empire
Reply #5 - Apr 11^th, 2012 at 3:10pm

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Apr 11^th, 2012 at 3:06pm:

bobbythefap1 wrote on Apr 11^th, 2012 at 2:41pm:

All I know is that it is controlled by dictatorship.

How is America a dictatorship? Obama doesnt have absolute power - in fact the last couple years congress has blocked almost everything he has wanted to do (except sign ACTA). What John Howard had was closer to a dictatorship.

I am not a scholar in the field of politics but it seems to me that most political decisions in america are made by big money/companies. They dictate what they want. Except for military I dont know what is going on there but they are very imperialist it seems. They think only of america (which is thier right i suppose) without taking into account any other countries except for how they can keep them under control.

SOB

Right but Obama and any other government/president is just the illusion of democracy. They all get told what to do on important issues just like in Australia. Money controls everything, and when you have a small group of people who control money then technically they control everything.

It’s not a dictatorship in the way we know it, it’s subtle and indirect.

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chimera Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 15451 Armidale Gender:	Re: the US is/isn't and empire Reply #6 - Apr 11^th, 2012 at 10:46pm For a long time the Monroe Doctrine has given the US a de facto territory, as Hawaii was a literal imperial territory. It paid for the 1823 Louisiana Purchase, which gave it the Spanish imperial realm of the West. Various bits in the Pacific are empire, and Britain may be a US aircraft carrier.
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falah

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Re: the US is/isn't and empire
Reply #7 - Apr 12^th, 2012 at 12:10am

The US currently occupies Afghanistan, Puerto Rico, Guam, Alaska, Wake Island, Samoa, Virgin Islands, Northern Mariana Islands, Kosovo and Gunatanamo Bay

The US currently has military bases in:

*Australia
*South Korea
*Japan
*Philippines
*Afghsanistan
*Kyrgistan
*UAE
*Kuwait
*Qatar
*Bahrain
*Germany
*Israel
*Bulgaria
*Italy
*Kosovo
*Bahrain
*Brazil
*Cuba
*Djibouti
*Greece
*Guam
*Spain
*Greenland
*Oman
*Saudi Arabi
*Singapore
*Netherlands
*Portugal
*Turkey
*UK
*Pakistan

This is a good map explaining some of the US expanisonism over two centuries:
http://www.emersonkent.com/images/us_territorial_growth.jpg

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chimera Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 15451 Armidale Gender:	Re: the US is/isn't and empire Reply #8 - Apr 12^th, 2012 at 7:43am The UN can be a pain for the US at times, but was set up to place the world within a framework of the American way. The payment of most UN funding by US indicates the thing is value for money to US.
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NorthOfNorth

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Re: the US is/isn't and empire
Reply #9 - Apr 12^th, 2012 at 8:09am

Soren wrote on Apr 11^th, 2012 at 2:36pm:

To my mind you give a good example of a country with imperial ambitions (China) and contrast it with the US which doesn't display any of these reflexes to control.

Said with more than a little sense of irony.

How does propping up Middle Eastern/South American dictatorships conform to the notion of not displaying any reflexes to control?

The US gave warning of its militaristic sensibilities when it invaded the Philippines under the pretext of liberating the nation, then refused to leave... Mark Twain (a member of the American anti-imperialist League) said this of US actions

Quote:

“There is the case of the Philippines. I have tried hard, and yet I cannot for the life of me comprehend how we got into that mess. Perhaps we could not have avoided it—perhaps it was inevitable that we should come to be fighting the natives of those islands—but I cannot understand it, and have never been able to get at the bottom of the origin of our antagonism to the natives. I thought we should act as their protector—not try to get them under our heel. We were to relieve them from Spanish tyranny to enable them to set up a government of their own, and we were to stand by and see that it got a fair trial. It was not to be a government according to our ideas, but a government that represented the feeling of the majority of the Filipinos, a government according to Filipino ideas. That would have been a worthy mission for the United States. But now—why, we have got into a mess, a quagmire from which each fresh step renders the difficulty of extrication immensely greater. I'm sure I wish I could see what we were getting out of it, and all it means to us as a nation.”

The great Mark Twain was scorned by America from the first day of his public protest against US actions until his death (even he wasn't great enough to awaken the collective American conscience against the dangers of militarism) and yet what he wrote could be said of nearly every 20th century US military adventure.

The US had established itself as the kind of power that its founding fathers had fought against little over 120 years prior.

But there's no point in embracing infantile idealism with regard to the US. The fact is great militaristic nations have great militaristic needs which, once established it appears, cannot be reined in.

For Americans (and vassal subjects) the job is to accept that the US is an imperial power. For Australians used to our vassal status (we have never in our history been anything other) this should be an easy task.

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chimera Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 15451 Armidale Gender:	Re: the US is/isn't and empire Reply #10 - Apr 12^th, 2012 at 9:11am China is probably making the US western border more defined. Myanmar is more wary of China than it is of India, as is the Vietnam war-machine.
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Avram Horowitz Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 3153 Australia Gender:	Re: the US is/isn't and empire Reply #11 - Apr 12^th, 2012 at 9:17am chimera wrote on Apr 12^th, 2012 at 7:43am: The UN can be a pain for the US at times, but was set up to place the world within a framework of the American way. The payment of most UN funding by US indicates the thing is value for money to US. The UN is corrupt and is long time ago become irrelevant.
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perceptions_now

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Re: the US is/isn't and empire
Reply #12 - Apr 12^th, 2012 at 10:40am

Avram Horowitz wrote on Apr 12^th, 2012 at 9:17am:

chimera wrote on Apr 12^th, 2012 at 7:43am:

The UN can be a pain for the US at times, but was set up to place the world within a framework of the American way. The payment of most UN funding by US indicates the thing is value for money to US.

The UN is corrupt and is long time ago become irrelevant.

Sounds a bit like many Politicians, here in OZ & Globally!

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Sir Spot of Borg

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Re: the US is/isn't and empire
Reply #13 - Apr 12^th, 2012 at 11:05am

Avram Horowitz wrote on Apr 12^th, 2012 at 9:17am:

chimera wrote on Apr 12^th, 2012 at 7:43am:

The UN can be a pain for the US at times, but was set up to place the world within a framework of the American way. The payment of most UN funding by US indicates the thing is value for money to US.

The UN is corrupt and is long time ago become irrelevant.

The UN is a symbol imo. @ least it was meant to be. Everything is corrupt.

SOB

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Avram Horowitz

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Re: the US is/isn't and empire
Reply #14 - Apr 12^th, 2012 at 11:10am

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Apr 12^th, 2012 at 11:05am:

Avram Horowitz wrote on Apr 12^th, 2012 at 9:17am:

chimera wrote on Apr 12^th, 2012 at 7:43am:

The UN can be a pain for the US at times, but was set up to place the world within a framework of the American way. The payment of most UN funding by US indicates the thing is value for money to US.

The UN is corrupt and is long time ago become irrelevant.

The UN is a symbol imo. @ least it was meant to be. Everything is corrupt.

SOB

Look at the number of resolutions put to security council on Israel.
It is ridiculous.

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