Australian Politics Forum - Why a price on Carbon?

Original Reeper

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Re: Why a price on Carbon?
Reply #15 - Jun 1^st, 2011 at 1:53pm

Doctor Jolly wrote on Jun 1^st, 2011 at 11:05am:

True, the environment works in absolutes. But we have no absolute power, no world government. I am 99% certain there will be no binding world agreement on c02 emissions. How can there be without enforcement, and we have not mechanism to enforce.

Therefore it is up to each country to do what they can.

For a market based economy like ours, a carbon price is the most effective mechanism.

For a state controlled economy like China, direct action is the most effective, as all power generation is state owned.

Therefore waiting for a world carbon price is futile. A lot of countries dont need it to reduce emissions. However a local carbon price for us is very relevant.

That's akin to a passenger on the Titanic saying "I only have this cork, but at least I'm doing my bit to plug that big gash left by the iceberg."

Its conning people into thinking we can buy our way out of environmental damage via a tax.

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Soren

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Re: Why a price on Carbon?
Reply #16 - Jun 1^st, 2011 at 1:59pm

Doctor Jolly wrote on Jun 1^st, 2011 at 11:51am:

What do you mean ?

I would think co2 tax would be applied where the co2 is released.
Mining coal doesnt produce much co2 at all. Burning it does.

Very clever.

WHat's the bruhaha about tobacco companies? They are not smoking the cigis. Mebbe we shouldn't tax the sale of tobacco, only the smoking of it. We shouldn't restrict the sale of alcohol to kiddies but only tell 'em not to drink it. 'Buy it, sprog, just don't drink it.'
Smart.

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« Last Edit: Jun 1^st, 2011 at 2:35pm by Soren »

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Doctor Jolly

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Re: Why a price on Carbon?
Reply #17 - Jun 1^st, 2011 at 2:34pm

Original Reeper wrote on Jun 1^st, 2011 at 1:53pm:

Doctor Jolly wrote on Jun 1^st, 2011 at 11:05am:

True, the environment works in absolutes. But we have no absolute power, no world government. I am 99% certain there will be no binding world agreement on c02 emissions. How can there be without enforcement, and we have not mechanism to enforce.

Therefore it is up to each country to do what they can.

For a market based economy like ours, a carbon price is the most effective mechanism.

For a state controlled economy like China, direct action is the most effective, as all power generation is state owned.

Therefore waiting for a world carbon price is futile. A lot of countries dont need it to reduce emissions. However a local carbon price for us is very relevant.

That's akin to a passenger on the Titanic saying "I only have this cork, but at least I'm doing my bit to plug that big gash left by the iceberg."

Its conning people into thinking we can buy our way out of environmental damage via a tax.

Bad analogy. Because the titanic is not savable with n corks.

pricing coal burning out of existance in the long term is a solution that will work.

So if you want a shipping analogy, the world is a ship thats been riddled with machine gun fire, and everyone on deck has corks at their disposal to plug there nearest holes. First Mate Australia needs to get plugging, and not complaining about the lack of captaincy, or saying "its not my fault".

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Doctor Jolly

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Re: Why a price on Carbon?
Reply #18 - Jun 1^st, 2011 at 2:38pm

Soren wrote on Jun 1^st, 2011 at 1:59pm:

Doctor Jolly wrote on Jun 1^st, 2011 at 11:51am:

What do you mean ?

I would think co2 tax would be applied where the co2 is released.
Mining coal doesnt produce much co2 at all. Burning it does.

Very clever.

WHat's the bruhaha about tobacco companies? They are not smoking the cigis. Mebbe we shouldn't tax the sale of tobacco, only the smoking of it. We shouldn't restrict the sale of alcohol to kiddies but only tell 'em not to drink it. 'Buy it, sprog, just don't drink it.'
Smart.

I dont think its clever at all. I thought it was bloody obvious.

Another bad analogy. A tax on fags and booze is trying to address different things than a carbon tax.

If someone develops a coal fired sequestation technique that makes burning coal polute less co2, thats where the co2 tax/price advantage takes place over someone who burns coal without a care in the world.
It must be at the release of c02 to drive inovation.

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Equitist Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 9632 NSW	Re: Why a price on Carbon? Reply #19 - Jun 1^st, 2011 at 2:41pm Alas! All of these involve unhealthy addictions!
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Re: Why a price on Carbon?
Reply #20 - Jun 1^st, 2011 at 4:31pm

Another cost comparison:

The 8.619 million tonnes of carbon emissions we will stop can be offset by planting 196 square KM of forest. At $2 per seedling and 2500 trees per hectare, thats about $98M. Compare that to the $11.5Bn we will pay for the carbon tax and the negative impact on the economy.

If they are going to go ahead with the tax and are serious about this, they could take the $11.5Bn and use it to plant 100 times the 196sqkm and viola, were carbon neutral for the next century.

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Original Reeper

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Re: Why a price on Carbon?
Reply #21 - Jun 1^st, 2011 at 4:41pm

Doctor Jolly wrote on Jun 1^st, 2011 at 2:34pm:

So if you want a shipping analogy, the world is a ship thats been riddled with machine gun fire, and everyone on deck has corks at their disposal to plug there nearest holes. First Mate Australia needs to get plugging, and not complaining about the lack of captaincy, or saying "its not my fault".

Problem is, Able Seaman China continues spraying the ship with ever increasing calibre fire from the inside.

But this is OK because they are making less holes per sailor than the rest of the world, and should be allowed to catch up.

As long as Australia plugs its holes at least we've done something. And Gillard is about to plug all our holes with this tax.

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Doctor Jolly

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Re: Why a price on Carbon?
Reply #22 - Jun 1^st, 2011 at 4:49pm

Original Reeper wrote on Jun 1^st, 2011 at 4:41pm:

Doctor Jolly wrote on Jun 1^st, 2011 at 2:34pm:

So if you want a shipping analogy, the world is a ship thats been riddled with machine gun fire, and everyone on deck has corks at their disposal to plug there nearest holes. First Mate Australia needs to get plugging, and not complaining about the lack of captaincy, or saying "its not my fault".

Problem is, Able Seaman China continues spraying the ship with ever increasing calibre fire from the inside.

But this is OK because they are making less holes per sailor than the rest of the world, and should be allowed to catch up.

As long as Australia plugs its holes at least we've done something. And Gillard is about to plug all our holes with this tax.

Without wanting to torture this analogy to death, we only have two choices... plug holes or sink. We are also spraying our own machine gun around in there. We at least need to stop that.

In fact every australian is spraying around their kalasnicov (sp?) at will , and every chinese is sharing a single-shot 22 between a dozen of them.

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Doctor Jolly

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Re: Why a price on Carbon?
Reply #23 - Jun 1^st, 2011 at 4:53pm

Original Reeper wrote on Jun 1^st, 2011 at 4:31pm:

Another cost comparison:

The 8.619 million tonnes of carbon emissions we will stop can be offset by planting 196 square KM of forest. At $2 per seedling and 2500 trees per hectare, thats about $98M. Compare that to the $11.5Bn we will pay for the carbon tax and the negative impact on the economy.

If they are going to go ahead with the tax and are serious about this, they could take the $11.5Bn and use it to plant 100 times the 196sqkm and viola, were carbon neutral for the next century.

Two problems with trees:
- You are going to run out of space eventually to plant them.
- You are taking up productive farmland when planting them.
- They only temporarily store carbon for 100 years or so. Decay or burning releases the co2 they store.
- One decent fire, and your storage is stuffed.

Trees do not solve the problem. Only feel good things for greenies.

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Original Reeper

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Re: Why a price on Carbon?
Reply #24 - Jun 1^st, 2011 at 5:46pm

Doctor Jolly wrote on Jun 1^st, 2011 at 4:49pm:

Without wanting to torture this analogy to death, we only have two choices... plug holes or sink. We are also spraying our own machine gun around in there. We at least need to stop that.

In fact every australian is spraying around their kalasnicov (sp?) at will , and every chinese is sharing a single-shot 22 between a dozen of them.

We shoot 1.35% of the holes. For every hole we shoot, the Chinese shoot 14, the US shoots 12 and the EU shoots 10. The Chinese will increase the number of holes they shoot each year.

We are being told - by Cate Blanchette on behalf of the govt- that it will finally "do something about the environment". How can reducing 1.35% by 5% - a global change of 0.067% - constitute "doing something?"

Why should we suck $11.5Bn out of the economy each year - 70% of which will come out of areas other than carbon emitting activities thanks to the inelastic nature of power demand - when it will make no discernable difference to the environment?

To assuage middle class guilt?
So we can pat each other on the back and say "well we've done our bit"?

Or is it so Labor can keep the Greens happy and retain government?

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Doctor Jolly

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Re: Why a price on Carbon?
Reply #25 - Jun 2^nd, 2011 at 9:04am

Original Reeper wrote on Jun 1^st, 2011 at 5:46pm:

We shoot 1.35% of the holes. For every hole we shoot, the Chinese shoot 14, the US shoots 12 and the EU shoots 10. The Chinese will increase the number of holes they shoot each year.

We are being told - by Cate Blanchette on behalf of the govt- that it will finally "do something about the environment". How can reducing 1.35% by 5% - a global change of 0.067% - constitute "doing something?"

Why should we suck $11.5Bn out of the economy each year - 70% of which will come out of areas other than carbon emitting activities thanks to the inelastic nature of power demand - when it will make no discernable difference to the environment?

To assuage middle class guilt?
So we can pat each other on the back and say "well we've done our bit"?

Or is it so Labor can keep the Greens happy and retain government?

So what are you proposing, do nothing ? That spells certain death. There have been suggestions that if we do nothing the worlds population will fall from 6 billion to 1 billion over the next few hundred years. That will be very unpleasant to say the least. There is a good section in Tim Flanery's "The Future Eaters" where he talks about what the Moari went through when they exhausted their resources. Population fell significantly. Constant warfare. Canibalism.

Australia can only govern itself. It needs to reduce its releasing of co2, and so do the other countries. We cant tell them what to do, and they cant tell us either.

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Re: Why a price on Carbon?
Reply #26 - Jun 2^nd, 2011 at 12:11pm

Something else I just found out: Baseload stations produce 60-65% of Australia's electricity. The remainder is from intermediate or peak load stations.

Nearly all of Australia's intermediate and peak load electricity already comes from either gas turbines (very low carbon emissions) or hydro (zero carbon emissions). This is where any tax-induced reduction in power useage will occur.

Its the baseload energy from coal powered stations that pumps out the CO2, and you cannot regulate the output from a baseload power station - its either on, or off.

So the already low drop in electricity use from the proposed carbon price will only effect the already eco-frinedly low- or zero-carbon output intermediate and peak stations.

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Equitist

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Re: Why a price on Carbon?
Reply #27 - Jun 2^nd, 2011 at 12:19pm

Original Reeper wrote on Jun 2^nd, 2011 at 12:11pm:

Something else I just found out: Baseload stations produce 60-65% of Australia's electricity. The remainder is from intermediate or peak load stations.

Nearly all of Australia's intermediate and peak load electricity already comes from either gas turbines (very low carbon emissions) or hydro (zero carbon emissions). This is where any tax-induced reduction in power useage will occur.

Its the baseload energy from coal powered stations that pumps out the CO2, and you cannot regulate the output from a baseload power station - its either on, or off.

So the already low drop in electricity use from the proposed carbon price will only effect the already eco-frinedly low- or zero-carbon output intermediate and peak stations.

Dare I suggest that you should revisit your conclusions on the bases of realistic longer-term assumptions!?

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Lamenting the shift in the Australian psyche, away from the egalitarian ideal of the fair-go - and the rise of short-sighted pollies, who worship the 'Growth Fairy' and seek to divide and conquer!

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Original Reeper

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Re: Why a price on Carbon?
Reply #28 - Jun 2^nd, 2011 at 12:29pm

Doctor Jolly wrote on Jun 2^nd, 2011 at 9:04am:

So what are you proposing, do nothing ? That spells certain death. There have been suggestions that if we do nothing the worlds population will fall from 6 billion to 1 billion over the next few hundred years. That will be very unpleasant to say the least. There is a good section in Tim Flanery's "The Future Eaters" where he talks about what the Moari went through when they exhausted their resources. Population fell significantly. Constant warfare. Canibalism.

Australia can only govern itself. It needs to reduce its releasing of co2, and so do the other countries. We cant tell them what to do, and they cant tell us either.

Yes, the consequences of global warming are dire. (I doubt it will involve much cannibalism in Australia). But if we are going to do something, that something must be effective.

Implementing a tax is doing "something", just not about the environment. Group prayer is doing "something" and will probably be as effective.

Doc, my point is carbon tax = doing nothing to reduce carbon emissions, and that is my main concern. Australians will believe once a tax is in place we will have done our bit when it is far from the truth.

We need alternatives, and that is my other gripe - the opposition have been too busy hoping the climate change deniers will win out rather than forcing an examination of the facts and figures relating to the impact of a tax compared to alternatives.

I don't have the answers. I do however have a lot of unanswered questions, and as a result, a lack of options.

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Equitist

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Re: Why a price on Carbon?
Reply #29 - Jun 2^nd, 2011 at 12:41pm

The feral denialists and the confusionalists need a huge reality check - and the situation is so pressing we can't really afford to wait for the domestic ferals to get that via an electoral kick in the backside in about 2 1/2 years time...

They prolly can't help it if they are knee-jerk linear thinkers - and it's not as if they're likely to develop the capacity to objectively extrapolate and appreciate their folly...

Therefore, they need to be shot down and put out of our collective misery ASAP - either that, or they should be duly sidelined and ignored for the whingeing blinkered mongrels that they are...

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Lamenting the shift in the Australian psyche, away from the egalitarian ideal of the fair-go - and the rise of short-sighted pollies, who worship the 'Growth Fairy' and seek to divide and conquer!

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