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The carbon tax: a few criticisms (Read 1782 times)
Tsfen
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The carbon tax: a few criticisms
Jul 26th, 2011 at 7:16pm
 
Hi all, I'm new in here. Just had a read of this topic and there seems to be a lot of focus on carbon. Now i'll be quite upfront, I am a climate change skeptic however for the purposes of this argument I will assume that climate change is actually happening.

Now the idea of a tax on carbon is essentially that if we increase the price of carbon, Australians will consume and produce less carbon emissions, which will in turn reduce total global output and also serve as an example to other nations to limit their own carbon output which will in turn eventually reduce global warming and save the planet so we can all go back to hugging trees.

I have a few of issues with this idea:

1. Carbon dioxide is not the most potent greenhouse gas. Nor is it the most abundant. In terms of its actual contribution to the greenhouse effect in comparison to other greenhouse gases it only contributes 10-25% (approx) to the greenhouse effect with water vapor which is a much more potent and abundant gas contributing 35-75%. If we are really serious about this global warming thing why are we taxing carbon and not water vapor, methane, ozone, sulfur and other gases?

2. We live in Australia. We are not a major producer of carbon. We simply don't have the population to be. The biggest polluters are USA and China. My understanding is that the Gillard government's modelling relies on the US and China jumping on the Greeny bandwagon at some stage and cutting their own emissions too. Let us assess the likelihood of these assumptions coming to fruition:

-  The US has a huge economic crisis on its hands at the moment and a war to handle. Their industries are getting shut down, people are losing their jobs and homes. Congress can't agree on anything (even paying its own bills). The democrats are not huge supporters of a carbon tax or ETS (though they do like to talk about renewable energy) and the republicans tell environmentalist groups to go to hell on a regular basis. The point is that the US has bigger fish to fry. The idea that Australia can influence the US on this issue is ridiculous and has already been proven wrong. When Krudd signed the Kyoto protocol the US response can be summarised as follows: "meh."

- China: You honestly think that a totalitarian state which frequently disregards the entire worlds opinion on its human rights record who wants to become the next industrial/economic if not military superpower is going to sacrifice significant growth to appease some tree huggers? No. Im not even going to discuss this further, I seriously hope common sense prevails on this one.

So my point is that any tax we make on carbon will inconvenience our population and do virtually nothing to stop/reduce/prevent global warming anyway.

3. Lets disregard the last couple of arguments for a second and just assume they have no merit whatsoever and look at the tax itself:

- You tax carbon production and consumption. You give huge concessions to the people/industries that will be most affected such as coal mining, steel and energy (so in essence you're reducing the effectiveness of your own scheme) and then you take the taxes gained and redistribute them to the poor. How exactly is this supposed to make any significant reduction in anything except the bank accounts of the wealthy?

I would understand if you told the industries they have 5 years to convert their operations to renewable energy or if you invested the money you had collected from tax toward providing subsidies for green friendly initiatives. But from my understanding, the government doesn't even know how to implement the tax and is getting treasury to collect submissions and proposals. At least plan the damn thing out and think about it if you're going to do this!

The government is in the process of creating the economic equivalent of the insulation scheme debacle. An ill conceived, poorly thought through plan that has not had adequate consultation within parliament, interest groups, the public service or the Australian people.
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muso
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Re: The carbon tax: a few criticisms
Reply #1 - Jul 27th, 2011 at 10:59am
 
Before anybody rips that argument to shreds, please consider that it's a view held by quite a large percentage of the voting population.  Be nice to a first time poster and explain without being abusive.

I don't have time to respond right now myself but there are a few misconceptions in your post. I'll leave it at that for now.
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Re: The carbon tax: a few criticisms
Reply #2 - Jul 27th, 2011 at 11:03pm
 
Quote:
1. Carbon dioxide is not the most potent greenhouse gas. Nor is it the most abundant. In terms of its actual contribution to the greenhouse effect in comparison to other greenhouse gases it only contributes 10-25% (approx) to the greenhouse effect with water vapor which is a much more potent and abundant gas contributing 35-75%. If we are really serious about this global warming thing why are we taxing carbon and not water vapor, methane, ozone, sulfur and other gases?


http://www.skepticalscience.com/co2-warming-35-percent.htm

Water vapor is a function of temperature, not a cause, it's content in the atmosphere is regulated by temperature because, unlike CO2, H2O doesn't accumulate in the atmosphere, rather it condenses and falls to the ground as rain.

http://www.skepticalscience.com/water-vapor-greenhouse-gas.htm

As for the other gasses, methane is included in the tax, ozone I'm not sure and cbf looking it up but human emissions of ozone aren't anything close to CO2 emissions, hence the focus on CO2.

http://www.skepticalscience.com/methane-and-global-warming.htm

http://www.skepticalscience.com/CFCs-global-warming.htm



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Andrei.Hicks wrote on Sep 11th, 2011 at 11:23am:
So tell me, you'd like to see more and more craphouse coloured people in Australia right?&&Yeah good idea moron.&&
 
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Re: The carbon tax: a few criticisms
Reply #3 - Jul 28th, 2011 at 2:20pm
 
astro_surf wrote on Jul 27th, 2011 at 11:03pm:
As for the other gasses, methane is included in the tax, ozone I'm not sure and cbf looking it up but human emissions of ozone aren't anything close to CO2 emissions, hence the focus on CO2.






The carbon price will cover four of the six greenhouse gases counted under the Kyoto Protocol: carbon dioxide, methane, nitrous oxide and perfluorocarbons from aluminium smelting. The other two gases, hydrofluorocarbons and sulphur hexaflouride, and perfluorocarbons not from aluminium smelting will face an equivalent carbon price through existing legislation.

Ozone is not covered, probably because it's too reactive to measure emissions adequately.

(Source: Securing a Clean Energy Future. - Google it)
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Re: The carbon tax: a few criticisms
Reply #4 - Jul 28th, 2011 at 10:19pm
 
The following deals with many of the policy questions you raise:

Quote:
ere are five myths that I've heard being repeated during my stay.

1. Climate change policymaking is driven primarily by tree huggers and socialists.

In fact, Mrs Thatcher was one of the first world leaders to call for urgent action more than 20 years ago. The three largest countries that already have a fully-fledged carbon price system in operation - Germany, France and the UK - all have centre right governments in power. And Arnold Schwarzenegger was a consistent champion of carbon pricing during his time as Republican governor of California.

So there is no reason why this should be treated as an ideological issue. The real question is about where you want to place your bets: alongside the vast majority of the world's climate scientists who say that man-made climate change is a significant threat, or with a handful of naysayers, often from Europe, who are as well qualified to talk about science as they are about Aussie rules football.

2. Since Australia only accounts for about 1.5 per cent of the world's greenhouse gas emissions, nothing that it does will make any practical difference to the Earth's atmosphere.

As the world's biggest emitter of greenhouse gases per head of the population, Australia has a vital part to play in the international debate. It will be much harder to persuade the big emerging economies of China and India to modify their behaviour if this country is unwilling to do anything itself. As a massive exporter of coal, it has a strong interest in being seen to play a responsible part in the fight against man-made climate change.

And there is no doubt that it has a stake in this fight. If the threat is as significant as the scientists believe, Australia is likely to be the most vulnerable of all developed countries to the damaging consequences, in the shape of drought and coastal flooding.

3. Australia is proposing to go much further than other countries in its climate change policies.

The reality is that a plan to cut emissions by 5 per cent between 2000 and 2020 probably puts the country somewhere in the middle of the pack. According to The Economist magazine, the proposed carbon price scheme for Australia is "not particularly ambitious: quite a lot of the reductions it seeks, especially in the early years, will be bought from developing countries using the United Nation's Clean Development Mechanism".

4. Green policies can only do harm to the economy.

As Malcolm Turnbull argued last week, in anything but the very short term this is not a zero-sum game, in which a win for the environment means a loss for business. Taking carbon out of the atmosphere will require a whole bunch of new products and services to be developed, which will drive innovation and create new jobs and investment.

That's why companies like GE, Siemens, Jaguar Land Rover, Unilever and Marks and Spencer are not pushing back against carbon pricing policies. On the contrary, they understand that in the future they will need to be green to grow.

5. A country that imposes a carbon price before its major trading partners will kill its export industries.

Germany is today arguably the world's most successful exporting nation, selling massive amounts of capital goods to China and elsewhere. It's also been retrofitting its housing stock, and investing heavily in renewable energy. And it already puts a price on its carbon.

Of course business is never going to write a blank cheque for government, and there are some very difficult questions to resolve - for instance, about how best to treat energy intensive manufacturers of tradeable commodities like steel or cement. It would make no sense to put the kind of burden on these businesses that would force them to close down here and import products from countries where there were no such constraints.

And of course this is a red hot political issue here in Australia: it's not for a visitor to pontificate about the right course of action. But the arguments need to be based on realities, not myths. Other countries have gone down this road already - and the roof has not fallen in.
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Andrei.Hicks wrote on Sep 11th, 2011 at 11:23am:
So tell me, you'd like to see more and more craphouse coloured people in Australia right?&&Yeah good idea moron.&&
 
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Re: The carbon tax: a few criticisms
Reply #5 - Jul 28th, 2011 at 11:40pm
 
astro_surf wrote on Jul 28th, 2011 at 10:19pm:
The following deals with many of the policy questions you raise:

Quote:
ere are five myths that I've heard being repeated during my stay.

1. Climate change policymaking is driven primarily by tree huggers and socialists.

In fact, Mrs Thatcher was one of the first world leaders to call for urgent action more than 20 years ago. The three largest countries that already have a fully-fledged carbon price system in operation - Germany, France and the UK - all have centre right governments in power. And Arnold Schwarzenegger was a consistent champion of carbon pricing during his time as Republican governor of California.

So there is no reason why this should be treated as an ideological issue. The real question is about where you want to place your bets: alongside the vast majority of the world's climate scientists who say that man-made climate change is a significant threat, or with a handful of naysayers, often from Europe, who are as well qualified to talk about science as they are about Aussie rules football.


2. Since Australia only accounts for about 1.5 per cent of the world's greenhouse gas emissions, nothing that it does will make any practical difference to the Earth's atmosphere.


As the world's biggest emitter of greenhouse gases per head of the population, Australia has a vital part to play in the international debate. It will be much harder to persuade the big emerging economies of China and India to modify their behaviour if this country is unwilling to do anything itself. As a massive exporter of coal, it has a strong interest in being seen to play a responsible part in the fight against man-made climate change.

And there is no doubt that it has a stake in this fight. If the threat is as significant as the scientists believe, Australia is likely to be the most vulnerable of all developed countries to the damaging consequences, in the shape of drought and coastal flooding.

3. Australia is proposing to go much further than other countries in its climate change policies.

The reality is that a plan to cut emissions by 5 per cent between 2000 and 2020 probably puts the country somewhere in the middle of the pack. According to The Economist magazine, the proposed carbon price scheme for Australia is "not particularly ambitious: quite a lot of the reductions it seeks, especially in the early years, will be bought from developing countries using the United Nation's Clean Development Mechanism".

4. Green policies can only do harm to the economy.

As Malcolm Turnbull argued last week, in anything but the very short term this is not a zero-sum game, in which a win for the environment means a loss for business. Taking carbon out of the atmosphere will require a whole bunch of new products and services to be developed, which will drive innovation and create new jobs and investment.

That's why companies like GE, Siemens, Jaguar Land Rover, Unilever and Marks and Spencer are not pushing back against carbon pricing policies. On the contrary, they understand that in the future they will need to be green to grow.

5. A country that imposes a carbon price before its major trading partners will kill its export industries.

Germany is today arguably the world's most successful exporting nation, selling massive amounts of capital goods to China and elsewhere. It's also been retrofitting its housing stock, and investing heavily in renewable energy. And it already puts a price on its carbon.

Of course business is never going to write a blank cheque for government, and there are some very difficult questions to resolve - for instance, about how best to treat energy intensive manufacturers of tradeable commodities like steel or cement. It would make no sense to put the kind of burden on these businesses that would force them to close down here and import products from countries where there were no such constraints.

And of course this is a red hot political issue here in Australia: it's not for a visitor to pontificate about the right course of action. But the arguments need to be based on realities, not myths. Other countries have gone down this road already - and the roof has not fallen in.



Sez who?

Step forward, Richard Lambert, until January the director-general of the Confederation of... er...  British Industry and a former editor of the, er.. London Financial Times.

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Re: The carbon tax: a few criticisms
Reply #6 - Aug 1st, 2011 at 2:50pm
 
The government is in the process of creating the economic equivalent of the insulation scheme debacle.
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Re: The carbon tax: a few criticisms
Reply #7 - Aug 1st, 2011 at 4:36pm
 
mnmnm wrote on Aug 1st, 2011 at 2:50pm:
The government is in the process of creating the economic equivalent of the insulation scheme debacle.

WHY??????????????????????????????????
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Re: The carbon tax: a few criticisms
Reply #8 - Aug 2nd, 2011 at 8:56am
 
mnmnm wrote on Aug 1st, 2011 at 2:50pm:
The government is in the process of creating the economic equivalent of the insulation scheme debacle.


Maybe.
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Re: The carbon tax: a few criticisms
Reply #9 - Aug 7th, 2011 at 9:17pm
 
skippy. wrote on Aug 1st, 2011 at 4:36pm:
mnmnm wrote on Aug 1st, 2011 at 2:50pm:
The government is in the process of creating the economic equivalent of the insulation scheme debacle.

WHY??????????????????????????????????

It's just pause button politics! RAISING DOUBT WITH NO REAL GUTS BEHIND IT- JUST SLOGANS AND PLAYING THE MAN NOT THE BALL! But I suspect you know this!

The whole thing with water vapour explained by astro above serves wholly well enough to act as a pause button that gives industry the time it needs to retool for the new paradigm. Al Gore knew that the explanation of simple concepts to millions of people was not an easy task. Even harder when it's not so simple...

The carbon tax has been sold: China is changing as we speak and Japan is changing due to unforseen circumstance: then Germany decided to follow the signs and now we have a world that is changing, or turning as I am fond of saying!

TONY ABBOTT HAS NO CLOTHES ON: THE CHINA DECISIONS ON ENERGY CAPS HAVE SORTED THAT OUT DEFINITIVELY AND YOU CAN EXPECT JULIA TO GO BALLS OUT FROM NOW UNTIL THE ELECTION IN TWO YEARS!

GREAT STUFF...

GET THE BEER COLD AND ENJOY I'M TELLING YA!

  Wink Wink Wink Wink Wink Wink Wink Cool

All these global economic woes and the carbon tax still going through means the Liberal Party now has to consider their reputation at the end of it all...

Look for change in Tony Abbott too...  Wink Wink

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*Sure....they're anti competitive as any subsidised job is.  It wouldn't be there without the tax payer.  Very damned difficult for a brainwashed collectivist to understand that I know....  (swaggy) *
 
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Re: The carbon tax: a few criticisms
Reply #10 - Aug 8th, 2011 at 8:07am
 
Absolutely, but the Government is still eminently capable of stuffing things up.  They are experienced at it.  Wink
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Re: The carbon tax: a few criticisms
Reply #11 - Aug 10th, 2011 at 2:42pm
 
muso wrote on Aug 8th, 2011 at 8:07am:
Absolutely, but the Government is still eminently capable of stuffing things up.  They are experienced at it.  Wink

Maybe, but Julias got a position whereas Tony is too scared to plant his front foot!

Those who panick are lost! Shocked
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*Sure....they're anti competitive as any subsidised job is.  It wouldn't be there without the tax payer.  Very damned difficult for a brainwashed collectivist to understand that I know....  (swaggy) *
 
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