Australian Politics Forum - Is Atheism a Religion?

muso

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Re: Is Atheism a Religion?
Reply #45 - May 7^th, 2011 at 10:21pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on May 7^th, 2011 at 10:15pm:

And your so-called faith in this improvable future is informed by what? Faith in god? Or your sound understanding of the requisite science upon which we may rely to reverse (or at least survive) catastrophic events?

Faith in God as I defined it - in the ability of people working together as a 'network' to prevail. I also have faith in myself. In another post, I stated that I had faith that I could run 5km in 20minutes or less, even though I haven't done it up to now, and I'm getting older.

I'd say that we all have faith of one kind or another.

All this talk about faith is very interesting, but it's not required for at least two cases of the divine.

..but Atheist means a disbelief in any god. As such, I think I have demonstrated that it's an irrational belief.

By the way, I should have explained "interrelated" a bit better. I meant it in the sense of a neural network.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Is Atheism a Religion?
Reply #46 - May 7^th, 2011 at 10:28pm

muso wrote on May 7^th, 2011 at 10:21pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on May 7^th, 2011 at 10:15pm:

muso wrote on May 7^th, 2011 at 9:59pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on May 7^th, 2011 at 9:56pm:

muso wrote on May 7^th, 2011 at 9:49pm:

Ok well actually my religion has faith. My faith is in the interrelatedness of all people and in an improvable future in this world. I have faith that mankind will survive.

Interrelatedness hardly needs faith. We're all descended from those very few hominids whose genetic material gave rise to homo sapiens.

An improvable future doesn't need much faith either... Go to a graveyard and note the number of people (particularly males) who were dead by their early sixties... Or those who died young of minor infections.

Survive what? A comet collision?

An improvable future needs a lot of faith in light of climate change and diminishing natural resources. I believe that we can overcome this obstacle.

And your so-called faith in this improvable future is informed by what? Faith in god? Or your sound understanding of the requisite science upon which we may rely to reverse (or at least survive) catastrophic events?

Faith in God as I defined it - in the ability of people working together as a 'network' to prevail. I also have faith in myself. In another post, I stated that I had faith that I could run 5km in 20minutes or less, even though I haven't done it up to now, and I'm getting older.

I'd say that we all have faith of one kind or another.

You are redefining god to be something other than what is normally intended by the term... Your reference to god is that of a mass psycho-social phenomenon. Few would or could argue that point... It is observable and verifiable... The point of departure (for the theist) would be that 'god' is only a mass psycho-social phenomenon... And that departure is the great leap faith.

I'm sure you're wise enough to understand the difference between faith and self-delusion.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Is Atheism a Religion?
Reply #47 - May 7^th, 2011 at 10:34pm

muso wrote on May 7^th, 2011 at 10:21pm:

By the way, I should have explained "interrelated" a bit better. I meant it in the sense of a neural network.

Well, its true that intelligent animals do recognise their own kind instinctively and immediately on sensing the presence of another same-species individual and respond accordingly. Humans at a certain level also know instinctively and immediately on the sensing of the presence of another and respond accordingly.

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muso

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Re: Is Atheism a Religion?
Reply #48 - May 7^th, 2011 at 10:37pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on May 7^th, 2011 at 10:28pm:

You are redefining god to be something other than what is normally intended by the term... Your reference to god is that of a mass psycho-social phenomenon. Few would or could argue that point... It is observable and verifiable... The point of departure (for the theist) would be that 'god' is only a mass psycho-social phenomenon... And that departure is the great leap faith.

I'm sure you're wise enough to understand the difference between faith and self-delusion.

I don't like your use of the word "only" in the above context. What I'm describing is the collective power of humanity, and I regard that as sacred.

Do you understand the distinction between faith and self-delusion?

Faith has an element of self-motivation in it that many atheists fail to comprehend.

It's not a valid point to say that most people would not interpret god in that way. I'd say that a surprising number of people already do.

That is, unless you want to redefine Atheism as a disbelief in most gods.

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muso

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Re: Is Atheism a Religion?
Reply #49 - May 7^th, 2011 at 10:38pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on May 7^th, 2011 at 10:34pm:

muso wrote on May 7^th, 2011 at 10:21pm:

By the way, I should have explained "interrelated" a bit better. I meant it in the sense of a neural network.

Well, its true that intelligent animals do recognise their own kind instinctively and immediately on sensing the presence of another same-species individual and respond accordingly. Humans at a certain level also know instinctively and immediately on the sensing of the presence of another and respond accordingly.

What I'm describing is an immanent god.

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muso

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Re: Is Atheism a Religion?
Reply #50 - May 7^th, 2011 at 10:47pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on May 7^th, 2011 at 10:28pm:

You are redefining god to be something other than what is normally intended by the term... Your reference to god is that of a mass psycho-social phenomenon. Few would or could argue that point... It is observable and verifiable... The point of departure (for the theist) would be that 'god' is only a mass psycho-social phenomenon... And that departure is the great leap faith.

I'd like to explore that further. Let's substitute "at least" for only:

"God is at least a mass psycho-social phenomenon"

That is the point of departure for what you might term as the traditional theist.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Is Atheism a Religion?
Reply #51 - May 7^th, 2011 at 10:51pm

muso wrote on May 7^th, 2011 at 10:37pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on May 7^th, 2011 at 10:28pm:

You are redefining god to be something other than what is normally intended by the term... Your reference to god is that of a mass psycho-social phenomenon. Few would or could argue that point... It is observable and verifiable... The point of departure (for the theist) would be that 'god' is only a mass psycho-social phenomenon... And that departure is the great leap faith.

I'm sure you're wise enough to understand the difference between faith and self-delusion.

I don't like your use of the word "only" in the above context. What I'm describing is the collective power of humanity, and I regard that as sacred.

Do you understand the distinction between faith and self-delusion?

Faith has an element of self-motivation in it that many atheists fail to comprehend.

It's not a valid point to say that most people would not interpret god in that way. I'd say that a surprising number of people already do.

That is, unless you want to redefine Atheism as a disbelief in most gods.

I refer to your definition of 'god'... You go no further than defining it as being a mass psycho-social phenomenon... It's evident that humans tend to act together to achieve commonly desired ends (even if we often fight over what those common ends should be). That capacity for many to act as one, is a feature of our species (as it is with others), no god is required as the glue. It's quite OK for you to refer to that as 'sacred' because I am sure you've redefined that term too such that it more closely resembles respectable/honourable

To have 'faith' you will someday run faster than you ever could when you were young (with the exclusion of some yet-to-be-invented youth pills) edges closer to self-delusion the older you get until ultimately its just plain self-delusion (or you have gone insane or are demented)

Self-motivation? Yes that is observable, hence the old Latin phrase 'Possunt, quia posse videntur' - "They can because they think they can"... Bearing in mind that this refers to a difficult yet possible act.

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Emma Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 9853 OZ Gender:	Re: Is Atheism a Religion? Reply #52 - May 7^th, 2011 at 10:52pm All sounds a bit like 'Scientology' (gasp) to me.
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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Is Atheism a Religion?
Reply #53 - May 7^th, 2011 at 10:54pm

muso wrote on May 7^th, 2011 at 10:47pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on May 7^th, 2011 at 10:28pm:

You are redefining god to be something other than what is normally intended by the term... Your reference to god is that of a mass psycho-social phenomenon. Few would or could argue that point... It is observable and verifiable... The point of departure (for the theist) would be that 'god' is only a mass psycho-social phenomenon... And that departure is the great leap faith.

I'd like to explore that further. Let's substitute "at least" for only:

"God is at least a mass psycho-social phenomenon"

That is the point of departure for what you might term as the traditional theist.

OK... The point where the theist says his adieus to you, shakes your hand then leaps into the void.

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NorthOfNorth Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 17258 Gender:	Re: Is Atheism a Religion? Reply #54 - May 7^th, 2011 at 10:54pm Emma wrote on May 7^th, 2011 at 10:52pm: All sounds a bit like 'Scientology' (gasp) to me. Been there, had a sniff... Its nothing like it.
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Emma

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Re: Is Atheism a Religion?
Reply #55 - May 7^th, 2011 at 10:57pm

talk about talking about a complete waste of effort - OK its fun to spar, but honestly,

Is Atheism a religion? What a question. Huh

I've already said NO - so that should be it.!! After all, aren't we all part of the universe. My say is as good as yours. Play little games with words - shame you don't have better things to do. Got kids? Go and be with them. Grin

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Is Atheism a Religion?
Reply #56 - May 7^th, 2011 at 11:04pm

Emma wrote on May 7^th, 2011 at 10:57pm:

I've already said NO - so that should be it.!! After all, aren't we all part of the universe. My say is as good as yours. Play little games with words - shame you don't have better things to do. Got kids? Go and be with them. Grin

Ah... Another control freak on the rampage Grin

11:00PM in SEQ... Where's your kids? At the foster home? Grin

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muso

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Re: Is Atheism a Religion?
Reply #57 - May 7^th, 2011 at 11:12pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on May 7^th, 2011 at 10:51pm:

To have 'faith' you will someday run faster than you ever could when you were young (with the exclusion of some yet-to-be-invented youth pills) edges closer to self-delusion the older you get until ultimately its just plain self-delusion (or you have gone insane or are demented)

I didn't take up running until I was older. I already run faster than I could when I was in my teens.

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muso Gold Member Offline Posts: 13151 Gladstone, Queensland Gender:	Re: Is Atheism a Religion? Reply #58 - May 7^th, 2011 at 11:14pm Emma wrote on May 7^th, 2011 at 10:57pm: Is Atheism a religion? What a question. It depends on how you define religion. In my opinion "Atheism" is not a religion.
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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Is Atheism a Religion?
Reply #59 - May 7^th, 2011 at 11:14pm

muso wrote on May 7^th, 2011 at 11:12pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on May 7^th, 2011 at 10:51pm:

To have 'faith' you will someday run faster than you ever could when you were young (with the exclusion of some yet-to-be-invented youth pills) edges closer to self-delusion the older you get until ultimately its just plain self-delusion (or you have gone insane or are demented)

I didn't take up running until I was older. I already run faster than I could when I was in my teens.

Then it's not really a leap of faith to imagine that you may run faster in the future.

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