'There's absolutely no use debating anything to do with social freedom in this country anymore, unless the outcome will certainly precure less social freedom.' - Amadd

Yes Amadd, and your other comments I also sadly agree with. Mind you, there has been talking about banning sale of bongs, both in Vic and Qld that I know of...for ages, but you can still purchase them over the counter in most major shopping centres.

Pretty dumb to my way of thinking. Anyone could make one-if they chose to. How ridiculous.!!

Which somehow segues into gun control.  A very similar issue, IMO, especially in the ineffectuality of the measures taken, and the resulting impacts on society.

Port Arthur gave the Govt of the day the perfect opportunity to disarm its honest citizens, and leave such deadly weapons only in the control of gangsters and cops.  Given recent news - footage plainly showing idiots with hand-guns, menacing say, a 7 Eleven cashier, gun turned side-ways (morons) like all them good gangsta crap artists in the Us of A.  How pathetic.!!
And the shop assistant??  maybe a baseball bat if lucky.   Or the shooting dead of a policeman doing his duty.

SEE  -  THE POLICE - cannot protect you, as the law expects. Not unless you are very lucky.
The Law requires that you bare your belly to the sword, - hoping for the 'guards' to come to your rescue , before you are gutted and left to die.
A person, in their own home, cannot be responsible enough to manage the possession of such a weapon,  but any number of children are obviously able to create hand-gun related mayhem, seemingly at will.!!
Makes NO SENSE to me.

I suggest fools would be much more cautious about their violent anti-social activities, if they thought ther 'victim' might be able to FIGHT BACK>
Not a new suggestion - but becoming more reasonable ALL THE TIME.

'..And it could also be a segue for a hundred different topics on "freedom of choice"- which is the basis of what I argue for in relation to pot use.
IMO, it's all about taking responsibility for your own actions.' - Amadd

Agree with the responsibility bit.  But these two particular 'freedoms' have planetary import, ie. some choices are more important than others.. .

'Logic states: If you do the crime, you do the time.
If no crime has been committed, then there is nothing to answer to.' - Amadd

Today, our 'crimes' are defined by law,  and public opinion.  Not so different from 100 or 500 yrs ago. ...Altho you can be sure - the crimes have changed - and the accepted punishments.
Some basic crimes of course, remain reasonably constant,  ..like Murder, or Kidnapping.

Of course, this logic is entirely subject to the 'crime'. And who and what makes it a crime. And the 'time'.
 Extant or 'served'.
...............
A seemingly reasonable, but basically simplistic view, designed to support the powers that be.

I have heard the same thing said about everything from speeding to not paying child support. From drunken fights to homelessness.
Nonsensical really, to the 'average' person, who wouldn't dream of breaking the LAW.!!  
Yeah  -- right.!!

Who among you, has never ever disobeyed a LAW.  ????  Is there such a person on this forum???

Yes Amadd IMO too.!

'- if you want rid of revolutions, then you must first be rid of lies and egostistical failures. Not likely IMO.' -  Amadd

Not likely to happen,  at all,!!! ..and not just liars and overblown egos.......given the nature of the human animal.

.. .Never will everyone join the same clan....and that's what it'd take.!! .......for all of us to acknowledge and act upon the fact ! that we are all the same, ..in the same boat -  ON THE SAME PLANET....

.. It may well be something striven for by many - including the proponents of mass-media world-culture -  -- can't see THAT happening  myself...AND  .....no nation or person is seen to be leading by example.!! Except perhaps??

Greenpeace,.. Sea Sheperd.. WWF ..Wilderness Society ..Bush Heritage Trust ...etc.  And these are only relatively small partisan organisations which rely on their supporters to help try to make things better. Laugh if you like.!

  GOVERNMENT??? it's not NIL effort ... but .. it seems to be mainly 'focussed' interest - where the ultimate goal is continued economic progress.

Honestly??
..seeing as we've widened this discussion into what it really IS about,  which is     human beings..

I think that even should worst case scenarios happen all over - -even if the 'general slide'  or decline,  forseen by so many thinkers  becomes even MORE REAL to us,... than it should be now, ..  and populations become fragmented, and fighting for limited resources, and people band together etc etc
...
.. I think nothing will change in the basic human makeup.. Well.. nothing that is not already entrain, so to speak, in our evolutionary progress as organisms that are alive.


I mean, it's not that I cannot  'see' lots and lots of opportunities - for people to live better lives,...  people in general.

 But  !!!  AYE  there's the rub,  ... the people,  the mass of humanity... the unlimited potential, the profit of the people's labour,???
who are the beneficiaries?
 who gets a fair entitlement? -  the workers? .. is it for the common good, ???    or for their masters,.... be they criminal, business  or administrative ,  (which seem to be the only classes available in the view of our society) ..!!....  all are in conflict!!.  The wealth and product of the world is only available to a relative few.  oooops  - and religion too.!!

Revolution is already happening, right now this minute, around the world, in many places, ... so  it will be interesting, should our own little enclave of relative peace continue long enough.,  to see the outcomes.
Whether or not they herald in a 'new' human,  ... or just more of the same.?????

Time will tell, .. I won't offer an opinion.

Well certainly a revolution in ethical behaviour by those in power.

Examples in our society today are everywhere - even if main-stream media attempt to obfuscate with irrelevancies, at least some truth may be gleaned from the information available to the common people.
But so all factions claim. 'tis a pretty mess indeed.

-'The only option I can see is a mass refusal to pay fines, and the best medium to organise this is the internet.
Even then, it's probable that unconstitional legislation will allow for further control measures in that department.

IMO, it's high time that people started voting for issues by the mere refusal to co-operate.
The only issues that you will ever have a chance to vote for or against at the polling booths are those that have been chosen for you....by them.'

Ah - true words there Amadd.  Hard words too.

Sort of makes one understand why some former activists are now politicians. Just need more of them, doing better.
And, yeah I know - it's not likely to happen.   I never say never,  unless it is something over which I have control, 'cos its a big world.

You are suggesting something that reflects pacifist principles... !    I commend you. To have impact one would need a significant support base, prepared to fund legal costs  et al. indefinitely .. Not impossible, given the power of the'net, ...
- but - ah.... the buts, .........  personally, ?  I don't think the Will exists in the on-line community - generally.  That's because there is simply too much stuff out there, and not everyone who might be more interested/concerned, is on the Net. I'm sure many folk do not use the Net, because it is,  what it is.
And to gather those who are supporters would require someone with lots of IT nous, just to get into view.  

This forum ,although pretty broad in it's scope, is still just .... this forum.

I don't use pc's much - .. I get a bit of fun out of popping in on some topics here, but am not generally active much,  ........I can only really act one on one, except for this .

I think , ...what you say  IS a way of challenging these unjust policies, at least in the public arena.     But - effective???  In this society,... with no Bill of Rights, ..detainees can be subject to gross injustice (no harm no foul?)- and, as a well regimented, and regulated society, despite the Oz self view as rugged individualists - few would raise issue.

Look at our treatment of refugees.

how can it happen??
people need to be able to recognise fascism, when they ARE IN IT.

Australia is without doubt, not a democracy in practical application of that idea. So we get to vote, but like you said Amadd, not for issues,  -  it's all about perception management these days.

Witness the carping on and on of Abbott and Co. Say it often enough, through in a few bogus stories of horrors and fear against the view you wish to destroy, and people come out of the woodwork to add to the shite. Sheep - in other words.

To show just how well 'managed' we all are,  just consider 'Wikileaks'.  That man has to be very brave to organise enough assets and skills to do what Wikileaks has.
Taking on the world's propaganda machine at it's own game was stunning.  But he has not escaped unpunished.
Lets hope the others who are not incarcerated, or 'held' for legal action, will continue. Hopefully there ARE others out there who want to know the real truth,  not the fabrications we buy into everyday.

Sadly, we become less and less viable as a species, and our survival is in no way guaranteed, so why do people just want to add to the downfall.
When America shut down the space shuttle, and now begs rides on gross Russian rockets, it was clear that the end of the game is closing rapidly for the US. Within say 10 yrs, they will be second rate - and will owe everything they still have to other countries.  Can't bomb their way out of that one.

The writing is on the wall.
New thinking, new politics, is the only way we as a species will reach our full potential.

All this hankering for the old ways, is a road to ruin.
Think about where all those 'old family values' which never existed really, in the first place, has brought us.
Children are sexually assaulted every 12 minutes, in Australia alone.  What does THAT say about bringing back the past?
Sorry - bit scattered today.  There is so much one could say about our human condition,  and I'm just glad that I still have the interest and passion to consider these things as an individual, rather than be a sheep.

Ah yes Amadd. 'tis sad indeed - the state of 'things'. .

- but, inevitable, this process to further decay and eventual obliteration.  
So it seems anyway.
Methinks History repeats and nothing is learned, with a detrimental accumulation of wrongs - until..... all things change,.... and the next earth arises.


Best to enjoy the sunshine,, - and the rain.!!

the thing about a number/ scoob / joint / spliff  ....(with a wee dig at a former poster, a certain mother who claims that yrs ago she allowed young pot smokers to  'indulge' as long as they stayed in her chosen location,  and she said, she insisted on joints only, because that was better than bongs because of the smell???? )
I mean  honestly? what a pile of poo.  Fortunately she was soundly trounced in the ensuing discussion, and p--d off.!! Although I never raised this point at the time.

.. the thing is , in comparison to a bong, they are wasteful,  usually passed around, and, the unsmoked smoke gets into hair, clothes, on the skin and fingers  - yep - that smell is a bit of a give away.!!.
..... unlike a bong, which is usually a one person one hit thing, where the 'substance' is wholly inhaled, ..and upon exhalation, -...because  said actions happen at a 'distance' from the hands face and clothes, and the smoke has been 'smoked'!! .. the smell neither clings nor lingers.  AND more importantly from the economic viewpoint, there is much less waste.  Others may disagree.