Australian Politics Forum - Ranking Ethics

NorthOfNorth

Gold Member

Offline

OzPolitic

Posts: 17258
Gender: male

Re: Ranking Ethics
Reply #60 - Dec 29^th, 2010 at 4:12pm

Sappho wrote on Dec 29^th, 2010 at 12:33pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Dec 29^th, 2010 at 7:49am:

Should we endeavour to seek them anyway?

I don't believe that values/ ethics are from god, nor the laws/ morality that enact the values/ ethics. Nonetheless, I did until recently believe that the pursuit of values and their enactment was important for personal and social development.

Now however, I am disillusioned. I feel that the world doesn't really care about values in any deep sense. That the world merely use values/ethics and laws/morals as a tool of power and prestige if the circumstances suit.

I have become too wise to the ways of the world. Thou shalt not (whatever) if the chances of getting caught are too high. Thou shalt not (whatever) if there is no quid pro quo attached.

I'm not so sure any more whether the pursuit of values/ethics and their enactment though laws/morals is that important. When those who affect change show no care or concern for values/ethics and laws/morals, why should I care?

PS: The post above mine makes reference to what we teach children. Well, I'm so disillusioned that the outcome may turn out being the encouragement in my children of opportunism as more important that being and doing good; of judging the adverse risks in acting illegally rather than the worth or badness of same; of manipulation as a means of gaining advantage rather than honour and decency.

Yep, we're definitely living in a society in decline.

Back to top

Conviction is the art of being certain

IP Logged

NorthOfNorth

Gold Member

Offline

OzPolitic

Posts: 17258
Gender: male

Re: Ranking Ethics
Reply #61 - Dec 29^th, 2010 at 6:55pm

Sappho wrote on Dec 29^th, 2010 at 12:33pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Dec 29^th, 2010 at 7:49am:

Should we endeavour to seek them anyway?

I don't believe that values/ ethics are from god, nor the laws/ morality that enact the values/ ethics. Nonetheless, I did until recently believe that the pursuit of values and their enactment was important for personal and social development.

Now however, I am disillusioned. I feel that the world doesn't really care about values in any deep sense. That the world merely use values/ethics and laws/morals as a tool of power and prestige if the circumstances suit.

I have become too wise to the ways of the world. Thou shalt not (whatever) if the chances of getting caught are too high. Thou shalt not (whatever) if there is no quid pro quo attached.

I'm not so sure any more whether the pursuit of values/ethics and their enactment though laws/morals is that important. When those who affect change show no care or concern for values/ethics and laws/morals, why should I care?

PS: The post above mine makes reference to what we teach children. Well, I'm so disillusioned that the outcome may turn out being the encouragement in my children of opportunism as more important that being and doing good; of judging the adverse risks in acting illegally rather than the worth or badness of same; of manipulation as a means of gaining advantage rather than honour and decency.

Shouldn't living up to your aspirations to high ideals be a personal quest, not just realised in the hopes of getting high fives?

Shouldn't we "strive without hope of success nor fear of failure"?

Who loves a saint?

Unless they're dead, of course, when they don't embarrass us with their piety and humiliate us with our own hypocrisy.

Back to top

Conviction is the art of being certain

IP Logged

Sappho

Gold Member

Offline

OzPolitic

Posts: 1406
Gender: female

Re: Ranking Ethics
Reply #62 - Dec 29^th, 2010 at 8:37pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Dec 29^th, 2010 at 6:55pm:

Shouldn't living up to your aspirations to high ideals be a personal quest, not just realised in the hopes of getting high fives?

Not completely no. Ethics pertains more to social living than it does personal living. The ethical baggage we carry around with us benefit the group usually through individual sacrifice. It's assumed that we act ethically because individuals are part of groups also and benefit ethically from that group identity.

So where it is that the leaders forsake the ethical standards, the individual (in this case me) can't help but think, what is the smacking point. My leaders only give lip service to ethical standards and behaviours, except when they are on the rough end of the ethical stick... then they tend to lecture all from hypocritical high moral ground.

Leaders have always been expected to set the standard, so when they set a dog eat dog standard... what is to stop the sheeple from following... more to the point... why should the sheeple bother if their leaders don't?

Quote:

Shouldn't we "strive without hope of success nor fear of failure"?

Why? I don't get that. From my perspective ethics/morality is about the betterment of society. One should hope for success in that endeavour so long as the leaders are leading the moral, social betterment that is, and where it genuinely fails, we should reassess out ethical and moral standing.

Quote:

Who loves a saint?

It's not about being a saint. It's not about lording your moral aptitude over others. It's not about finger pointing when a person slips up morally.

It is about the betterment of society for the sake of society. But again, when those who lead societies, communities, groups and families lack moral fortitude, then the reasons for moral behaviour in those groupings become much less compelling.

Back to top

"Love is a cunning weaver of fantasies and fables."

IP Logged

NorthOfNorth

Gold Member

Offline

OzPolitic

Posts: 17258
Gender: male

Re: Ranking Ethics
Reply #63 - Dec 29^th, 2010 at 8:47pm

Sappho wrote on Dec 29^th, 2010 at 8:37pm:

Quote:

Shouldn't we "strive without hope of success nor fear of failure"?

Why? I don't get that. From my perspective ethics/morality is about the betterment of society. One should hope for success in that endeavour so long as the leaders are leading the moral, social betterment that is, and where it genuinely fails, we should reassess out ethical and moral standing.

I'd say the underlying point is that acting ethically takes courage. It's easy to act where we are guaranteed success, much harder to persevere when it may end in failure. That's not to say we shouldn't reassess when we fail... But to reassess and start again... Takes courage. If we're not obsessed with guarantees of success nor daunted by the prospect of failure, then our resolve towards right action will be unshaken.

Back to top

Conviction is the art of being certain

IP Logged

Sappho

Gold Member

Offline

OzPolitic

Posts: 1406
Gender: female

Re: Ranking Ethics
Reply #64 - Dec 29^th, 2010 at 9:05pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Dec 29^th, 2010 at 8:47pm:

Sappho wrote on Dec 29^th, 2010 at 8:37pm:

Quote:

Shouldn't we "strive without hope of success nor fear of failure"?

Why? I don't get that. From my perspective ethics/morality is about the betterment of society. One should hope for success in that endeavour so long as the leaders are leading the moral, social betterment that is, and where it genuinely fails, we should reassess out ethical and moral standing.

I'd say the underlying point is that acting ethically takes courage. It's easy to act where we are guaranteed success, much harder to persevere when it may end in failure. That's not to say we shouldn't reassess when we fail... But to reassess and start again... Takes courage. If we're not obsessed with guarantees of success nor daunted by the prospect of failure, then our resolve towards right action will be unshaken.

Yep. I get that now and again return this to the leaders and say they should and could yet don't.

Back to top

"Love is a cunning weaver of fantasies and fables."

IP Logged

NorthOfNorth

Gold Member

Offline

OzPolitic

Posts: 17258
Gender: male

Re: Ranking Ethics
Reply #65 - Dec 29^th, 2010 at 9:08pm

Sappho wrote on Dec 29^th, 2010 at 9:05pm:

Quote:

I'd say the underlying point is that acting ethically takes courage. It's easy to act where we are guaranteed success, much harder to persevere when it may end in failure. That's not to say we shouldn't reassess when we fail... But to reassess and start again... Takes courage. If we're not obsessed with guarantees of success nor daunted by the prospect of failure, then our resolve towards right action will be unshaken.

Yep. I get that now and again return this to the leaders and say they should and could yet don't.

Courage, leader or not, it don't come easy.

That's what makes courage the most admired of all virtues. We even admire it in people we despise.

Is there anything to which we aspire more than courage?

Back to top

Conviction is the art of being certain

IP Logged

muso

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 13151
Gladstone, Queensland
Gender: male

Re: Ranking Ethics
Reply #66 - Dec 29^th, 2010 at 9:32pm

Yadda wrote on Dec 28^th, 2010 at 12:15pm:

.

AND YET, Jesus advice to us was, 'resist not evil'.
I am perplexed,
...and i am a flawed individual!

+++
I stand before God, and i know that i will be judged [by God] for my choices, and for my [personal] discernment.
Personally, i want and seek God's love, and i want to be redeemed [from this world], but when i read Matthew 5:39, i admit that i am challenged by the 'resist not evil' teaching/command that is given.

If that [passivity in the face of evil] is truly what God wishes from his children, then i doubt that i would [will!] rate as being worthy [as a child, as his child] in God's eyes.
That thought both saddens and frightens me.

Yeah, A lot of people are non-practicing Christians. I really don't think it matters. It's not my place to judge. It's natural to think of yourself as flawed. In fact it's the main teaching of your religion too.

What matters IMHO is to be true to yourself. The thing I admire about true Christians is their humility. It's something that can be found in Buddhism too. Buddhist monks are not always as passive as you might think though. Some can have a terrible temper.

It's useful to compare notes between different systems of ethics. Speaking frankly, you seem to have an obsession with Muslims. A lot of Christians seem to fall into that trap. A Buddhist would describe it as a craving that has progressed almost to hatred. Such hatred will consume you. It's better to follow the teachings of Jesus, which are remarkably similar to Buddhist teachings when it comes to non aggression.

Nobody is perfect. We are all flawed, myself included.

We all have an intrinsic value though.

Back to top

« Last Edit: Dec 29^th, 2010 at 9:43pm by muso »

1523 people like this. The remaining 7,134,765,234 do not

IP Logged

NorthOfNorth Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 17258 Gender:	Re: Ranking Ethics Reply #67 - Dec 29^th, 2010 at 9:41pm muso wrote on Dec 29^th, 2010 at 9:32pm: What matters IMHO is to be true to yourself. The thing I admire about true Christians is their humility. Except for those Christians who slap those smug bloody stickers on their back window... "Christians aren't perfect, just forgiven"
Back to top	Conviction is the art of being certain IP Logged

muso

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 13151
Gladstone, Queensland
Gender: male

Re: Ranking Ethics
Reply #68 - Dec 29^th, 2010 at 9:46pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Dec 29^th, 2010 at 9:41pm:

muso wrote on Dec 29^th, 2010 at 9:32pm:

What matters IMHO is to be true to yourself. The thing I admire about true Christians is their humility.

Except for those who slap those smug bloody stickers on their back window...

"Christians aren't perfect, just forgiven"

Yes - Baptists/ Evangelicals etc - Would you like fries with your religion?

That's why I used the 'true' qualifier. Some branches of Protestant Christianity are not very mature yet.

Back to top

1523 people like this. The remaining 7,134,765,234 do not

IP Logged

Yadda

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 22246
A cat with a view

Re: Ranking Ethics
Reply #69 - Dec 30^th, 2010 at 9:39am

muso wrote on Dec 29^th, 2010 at 9:32pm:

.
Yeah, A lot of people are non-practicing Christians. I really don't think it matters. It's not my place to judge. It's natural to think of yourself as flawed. In fact it's the main teaching of your religion too.

What matters IMHO is to be true to yourself. The thing I admire about true Christians is their humility.

Christians are taught to aspire to be Christ like.

1 John 3:2
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

But we are all destined to fall short.

muso,
And i think that you are correct, that humility is a characteristic which is holy.

But we all fall short.

e.g.
Mostly, the experience of Jesus' disciples, is our experience.

Luke 9:46
Then there arose a reasoning among them, which of them should be greatest.

Luke 22:24
And there was also a strife among them, which of them should be accounted the greatest.

muso,
If, in the daily presence of Jesus, his disciples still didn't 'get it' [i.e. humility, is what God requires], what hope is there for any of us?

God's promise is that if we recognise [acknowledge] our error, we will merit his forgiveness.

But is repentance ever found, within the heart of the proud?

+++

Psalms 34:18
The LORD is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit.

Isaiah 57:15
For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.

Isaiah 66:2
....to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word.

+++

Psalms 19:7
The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.

Numbers 16:5
...the LORD will shew who are his, and who is holy; and will cause him to come near unto him: even him whom he hath chosen will he cause to come near unto him.

Back to top

"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

IP Logged

Yadda

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 22246
A cat with a view

Re: Ranking Ethics
Reply #70 - Dec 30^th, 2010 at 10:51am

muso wrote on Dec 29^th, 2010 at 9:32pm:

.
Speaking frankly, you seem to have an obsession with Muslims. A lot of Christians seem to fall into that trap.

muso,

You seem to be correct. Wink

But, imo my interest in ISLAM [in commenting on ISLAM, and the actions of those who claim to be good moslems], has more to do with the nature of ISLAM, and its 'aspirations' towards people like myself, than to do with me, on a personality level.
But your opinion may differ.

Yadda, the obsessive

Back to top

"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

IP Logged

Sappho

Gold Member

Offline

OzPolitic

Posts: 1406
Gender: female

Re: Ranking Ethics
Reply #71 - Dec 30^th, 2010 at 2:10pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Dec 29^th, 2010 at 9:08pm:

Courage, leader or not, it don't come easy.

That's what makes courage the most admired of all virtues. We even admire it in people we despise.

Is there anything to which we aspire more than courage?

Youthfulness? Consumerism? Power? Prestige? Home ownership? Well paid employment? Good time? Knowledge acquisition?

I think we admire courage more than we aspire to courage.

Back to top

"Love is a cunning weaver of fantasies and fables."

IP Logged

NorthOfNorth

Gold Member

Offline

OzPolitic

Posts: 17258
Gender: male

Re: Ranking Ethics
Reply #72 - Dec 30^th, 2010 at 3:47pm

Sappho wrote on Dec 30^th, 2010 at 2:10pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Dec 29^th, 2010 at 9:08pm:

Courage, leader or not, it don't come easy.

That's what makes courage the most admired of all virtues. We even admire it in people we despise.

Is there anything to which we aspire more than courage?

Youthfulness? Consumerism? Power? Prestige? Home ownership? Well paid employment? Good time? Knowledge acquisition?

I think we admire courage more than we aspire to courage.

Youthfulness, Consumerism, Power, Prestige, Home ownership, well paid employment, Good time, Knowledge acquisition are not virtues (well maybe knowledge acquisition as a form of commitment to expanding one's mind could be considered a virtue, but not as prized as courage, I'd bet).

Unless you mean being 'young at heart', how do you aspire to youthfulness?

Do you really aspire to consumerism or do you just go out and spend?

Have you not imagined yourself doing something courageous, knowing you'd probably never realise it, but like to believe you could? (That's the engine of Hollywood right there).

I can't imagine anyone who has not aspired to executing the courageous act (even if it remained forever in their dreams) to impress themselves, their significant other, their kids or just from the driving need to believe that they have more of a spine than they probably will ever be able to prove.

The movie the Kite Runner explored what happens when one boy is called on to show courage and finds himself lacking and the moral decay (manifested by his subsequent acts) that sets in as a result of his cowardice.

Back to top

« Last Edit: Dec 30^th, 2010 at 3:55pm by NorthOfNorth »

Conviction is the art of being certain

IP Logged

Sappho

Gold Member

Offline

OzPolitic

Posts: 1406
Gender: female

Re: Ranking Ethics
Reply #73 - Dec 30^th, 2010 at 4:11pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Dec 30^th, 2010 at 3:47pm:

Sappho wrote on Dec 30^th, 2010 at 2:10pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Dec 29^th, 2010 at 9:08pm:

Courage, leader or not, it don't come easy.

That's what makes courage the most admired of all virtues. We even admire it in people we despise.

Is there anything to which we aspire more than courage?

Youthfulness? Consumerism? Power? Prestige? Home ownership? Well paid employment? Good time? Knowledge acquisition?

I think we admire courage more than we aspire to courage.

Youthfulness, Consumerism, Power, Prestige, Home ownership, well paid employment, Good time, Knowledge acquisition are not virtues (well maybe knowledge acquisition as a form of commitment to expanding one's mind could be considered a virtue, but not as prized as courage, I'd bet).

Unless you mean being 'young at heart', how do you aspire to youthfulness?

Do you really aspire to consumerism or do you just go out and spend?

Have you not imagined yourself doing something courageous, knowing you'd probably never realise it, but like to believe you could? (That's the engine of Hollywood right there).

I can't imagine anyone who has not aspired to executing the courageous act (even if it remained forever in their dreams) to impress themselves, their significant other, their kids or just from the driving need to believe that they have more of a spine than they probably will ever be able to prove.

The movie the Kite Runner explored what happens when one boy is called on to show courage and finds himself lacking and the moral decay (manifested by his subsequent acts) that sets in as a result of his cowardice.

In the past yes, and I have acted courageously... but not now. I see no point to it. That doesn't mean to say that i won't find myself as the accidental hero having acted courageously to save another from a burning house or from drowning ect... but that's not really what you are talking about.

Back to top

"Love is a cunning weaver of fantasies and fables."

IP Logged

NorthOfNorth

Gold Member

Offline

OzPolitic

Posts: 17258
Gender: male

Re: Ranking Ethics
Reply #74 - Dec 30^th, 2010 at 4:20pm

Sappho wrote on Dec 30^th, 2010 at 4:11pm:

In the past yes, and I have acted courageously... but not now. I see no point to it. That doesn't mean to say that i won't find myself as the accidental hero having acted courageously to save another from a burning house or from drowning ect... but that's not really what you are talking about.

You sound world-weary.

Back to top

Conviction is the art of being certain

IP Logged