Australian Politics Forum - Another 'Climate Change' failure...

Andrei.Hicks

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Re: Another 'Climate Change' failure...
Reply #90 - Dec 14^th, 2010 at 9:23am

Please delete wrote on Dec 14^th, 2010 at 9:20am:

"The truth is that once a carbon tax is in place, people will be compensated, in much the same way as when the GST was introduced.

Hang on, so we increase the bills - and then give people money to pay them?

Right?

This plan sounds like a winner to me.

In Accounting that is known as 'Roundtrip accounting' and the CFO of AmericaOnline faces a jail term for it.

You charge someone, then give them the money to pay it.

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Anyone who lives within their means suffers from a lack of imagination - Oscar Wilde

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Dsmithy70

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Re: Another 'Climate Change' failure...
Reply #91 - Dec 14^th, 2010 at 9:23am

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Dec 14^th, 2010 at 8:51am:

Dsmithy70 wrote on Dec 14^th, 2010 at 8:30am:

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Dec 14^th, 2010 at 8:12am:

Smithy you would agree though that a carbon tax will increase the monthly outgoings of families across Australia who are already struggling?

Why make them pay more?
What does it achieve?

It certainly doesn't stop the planet's climate changing.

Yes but why should that be a concern?

Because as any student of economics such as yourself knows the more something costs the less its is used. It's why we all don't have truffle oil on our eggs of a morning.

Less carbon burned less CO2 less change, simple

I am not saying you don't have a point.

However when you look at how much Australia contributes to emissions globally - it is pissing in the wind compared to the rest of the world.

Therefore, I just don't see how making families pay more for energy that they desperately need does anything.

You'll make electricity more expensive. What's a family going to do? Sit in the dark?

You'll make air con more expensive. What do we do? Sit around and put ice bags on our head.

My bills in Melbourne were $500+ per quarter for gas in winter and well over $500 per quarter in summer for electricity.
Now add a carbon tax and inflation and you're looking at $600+ bills per quarter for an average family.
Now personally I'm alright don't worry about me, but I'm thinking here of the guy who earns 3-4 or even 5 times less than me.

How on earth are these people supposed to manage?

Their bills will be sky high and for what? China is still going to pump out emissions like its going out of fashion and we're none the better.

Actually our emissions p/person in this Nation are the 2nd worst in the world so enough of the "we won't matter" lie.

Simple modifaction of behaviour will save these desparate families from sitting in the dark.
Turn all your stuff(DVD/Foxtel/PS3,Xbox,Wii, kettle,stereo etc) off at the wall. Standby adds 15 to 20% to your electricity bills.
There with a little disipline & effort I've just saved them more than a ETS will cost.

When I grew up in the 70's we had no A/C (earth shattering I know)it's not a right, people have & still do survive without it & yes ice bricks were a high demand product.As were blankets in Winter, amazing sitting on the lounge with 3 layers of clothes + a blanket instead of shorts & T-shirt with the aircon pumping out 26 degree air.

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REBELLION is when you turn off the TV & start educating & thinking for yourself.
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Please delete Gold Member Offline Please delete this smacking PROFILE Posts: 2936	Re: Another 'Climate Change' failure... Reply #92 - Dec 14^th, 2010 at 9:31am "In Accounting that is known as 'Roundtrip accounting' " In society, it's called "taxation". If you want to argue, argue against the GST.
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Please delete Gold Member Offline Please delete this smacking PROFILE Posts: 2936	Re: Another 'Climate Change' failure... Reply #93 - Dec 14^th, 2010 at 9:40am "Turn all your stuff(DVD/Foxtel/PS3,Xbox,Wii, kettle,stereo etc) off at the wall." I forget the exact figures, but at one stage they were saying that if everyone in the UK switched their TVs off at the wall, several power stations would not have to be built.
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Andrei.Hicks

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Re: Another 'Climate Change' failure...
Reply #94 - Dec 14^th, 2010 at 10:26am

Please delete wrote on Dec 14^th, 2010 at 9:31am:

"In Accounting that is known as 'Roundtrip accounting' "

In society, it's called "taxation". If you want to argue, argue against the GST.

No it's not.

Roundtrip accounting is charging someone for something and then giving them the money to pay for it.

And it's illegal in the United States.

Charging someone a tax and then giving them funding to pay for it may not be illegal in Australia but its certainly idiotic.

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Anyone who lives within their means suffers from a lack of imagination - Oscar Wilde

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longweekend58

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Re: Another 'Climate Change' failure...
Reply #95 - Dec 14^th, 2010 at 10:28am

Please delete wrote on Dec 14^th, 2010 at 9:20am:

"Do you realise how stretched some house budgets are right now?"

Normally you call people on low income "failures", and express befuddlement that they can't earn as much as you do.

Now you pretend to worry about them.

Touching.

The truth is that once a carbon tax is in place, people will be compensated, in much the same way as when the GST was introduced.

And you know that because... Gillard 'hint's at that? Let's face it - her 'word' aint all that credible. and if she believes in it so much then take it to an election like Howard did with the GST!

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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Please delete Gold Member Offline Please delete this smacking PROFILE Posts: 2936	Re: Another 'Climate Change' failure... Reply #96 - Dec 14^th, 2010 at 10:33am "Charging someone a tax and then giving them funding to pay for it may not be illegal in Australia but its certainly idiotic." And yet you fully support the GST, and regularly advocate increasing the rate to reduce income tax.
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Andrei.Hicks

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Re: Another 'Climate Change' failure...
Reply #97 - Dec 14^th, 2010 at 11:07am

You're seriously telling me that's the same thing???

That's called adjusting the tax policy of a nation.

Take a look only over the water to you.

NZ just REDUCED its income tax and increased GST from 12.5% to 15%.
Its tax adjustment.

Now INTRODUCING a tax is one thing - giving people money to pay it is just simply idiotic.

So you want to bring a tax in to do what?
Force people to use less of something they need - like lighting, electricity, gas....

But then give them funds to pay for it.

Sound a good idea?

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Anyone who lives within their means suffers from a lack of imagination - Oscar Wilde

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longweekend58

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Re: Another 'Climate Change' failure...
Reply #98 - Dec 14^th, 2010 at 11:09am

A Carbon Tax has ONE PURPOSE. it is levied on fossil fuel power generators to make the cost of their product significantly more expensive. The theory behind this peculiar form of idiocy is not to make renewables CHEAPER but to make its major compettitor (fossil fuels) a lot more expensive. it is in fact no different to the import tarrifs that we used to have and got rid of because they were 'uncompetitive'. The removal of tariff protection radically altered our car industry and instead of the rusty crappy vehicles built in the protectionist 70s and 80s, we now build world class cars that compete on the world market. Renewable energy is a lot more expensive that fossil fuels - especially in australia. By taxing fossil fuels you remove the incentive for renewables to become more efficient. Emerging technologies whos primary advantage is generating cost suddenyl become less urgent and less attractive.

The Carbon Tax - like tariffs before it - is well intentioned but fatally flawed. And just as the GST experience showed us, compensation is only temporary. In the end we all end up paying more for our energy.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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longweekend58

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Re: Another 'Climate Change' failure...
Reply #99 - Dec 14^th, 2010 at 11:11am

Please delete wrote on Dec 14^th, 2010 at 10:33am:

"Charging someone a tax and then giving them funding to pay for it may not be illegal in Australia but its certainly idiotic."

And yet you fully support the GST, and regularly advocate increasing the rate to reduce income tax.

The GST is a tax to replace other taxes. The Carbon Tax is a tax to seek to punish a industry sector to help another. The comparison is invalid. One (GST) is a tax the other is a tariff.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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Please delete Gold Member Offline Please delete this smacking PROFILE Posts: 2936	Re: Another 'Climate Change' failure... Reply #100 - Dec 14^th, 2010 at 11:16am "The GST is a tax to replace other taxes." Is it now? Here was I just thinking it was a new tax. Compensation was offered to make it palatable to the voters Removing other taxes was also a sweetener.
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Verge

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Re: Another 'Climate Change' failure...
Reply #101 - Dec 14^th, 2010 at 11:19am

Please delete wrote on Dec 14^th, 2010 at 11:16am:

"The GST is a tax to replace other taxes."

Is it now? Here was I just thinking it was a new tax.

Compensation was offered to make it palatable to the voters Removing other taxes was also a sweetener.

The GST is a uniform consumer taxation model, and far more efficent and fair than the old sales tax that was an absolute nightmare with particular indurstries gaining substantially while others copped taxes as high as 22%.

Farmers used to trade their work utes every two years for a brand new one and get a cheque from the car yard!

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And why not, if you will permit me; why shouldn’t I, if you will permit me; spend my first week as prime minister, should that happen, on this, on your, country - Abbott with the Garma People Aug 13

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Verge

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Re: Another 'Climate Change' failure...
Reply #102 - Dec 14^th, 2010 at 11:24am

Does anyone here honestly believe any government is capable of introducing this tax and using the tax dollars effectivley to combat climate change.

All I see is another level and department of government chewing massive dollars in administration while nothing is really done.

Take the speed camera revenue in Victoria, it hasnt decreased the road toll, the roads arent any better so where has it gone?

I have issues with coughing up money to any government that is incapable of actually using the money for its intended purpose. To me its just going to be another slush fund and the public service will get fatter.

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And why not, if you will permit me; why shouldn’t I, if you will permit me; spend my first week as prime minister, should that happen, on this, on your, country - Abbott with the Garma People Aug 13

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longweekend58

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Re: Another 'Climate Change' failure...
Reply #103 - Dec 14^th, 2010 at 11:26am

Please delete wrote on Dec 14^th, 2010 at 11:16am:

"The GST is a tax to replace other taxes."

Is it now? Here was I just thinking it was a new tax.

Compensation was offered to make it palatable to the voters Removing other taxes was also a sweetener.

well clearly you were either in prison or a child when it was introduced. the GST was revenue neutral and reduced income taxes and removed a raft of other taxes. Some products were actualyl CHEAPER. so yes, it was tax reform and ONLY tax reform.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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longweekend58

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Re: Another 'Climate Change' failure...
Reply #104 - Dec 14^th, 2010 at 11:28am

Verge wrote on Dec 14^th, 2010 at 11:24am:

Does anyone here honestly believe any government is capable of introducing this tax and using the tax dollars effectivley to combat climate change.

All I see is another level and department of government chewing massive dollars in administration while nothing is really done.

Take the speed camera revenue in Victoria, it hasnt decreased the road toll, the roads arent any better so where has it gone?

I have issues with coughing up money to any government that is incapable of actually using the money for its intended purpose. To me its just going to be another slush fund and the public service will get fatter.

and it isnt just Labor. Labor waste a crap load of money but the best you can say about the Libs is that they waste slightly less. they are ALL terrible.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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