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Another 'Climate Change' failure... (Read 14595 times)
Dsmithy70
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Re: Another 'Climate Change' failure...
Reply #105 - Dec 14th, 2010 at 11:37am
 
longweekend58 wrote on Dec 14th, 2010 at 11:28am:
Verge wrote on Dec 14th, 2010 at 11:24am:
Does anyone here honestly believe any government is capable of introducing this tax and using the tax dollars effectivley to combat climate change.

All I see is another level and department of government chewing massive dollars in administration while nothing is really done.

Take the speed camera revenue in Victoria, it hasnt decreased the road toll, the roads arent any better so where has it gone?

I have issues with coughing up money to any government that is incapable of actually using the money for its intended purpose.  To me its just going to be another slush fund and the public service will get fatter.


and it isnt just Labor. Labor waste a crap load of money but the best you can say about the Libs is that they waste slightly less. they are ALL terrible.

Agreed!
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REBELLION is not what most people think it is.
REBELLION is when you turn off the TV & start educating & thinking for yourself.
Gavin Nascimento
 
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Re: Another 'Climate Change' failure...
Reply #106 - Dec 14th, 2010 at 11:49am
 
"The GST is a uniform consumer taxation model, and far more efficent and fair than the old sales tax that was an absolute nightmare with particular indurstries gaining substantially while others copped taxes as high as 22%."

And just BTW, I am not arguing against the GST, as much as longweekend would like to twist it that way.

I merely pointed out that the GST redistributed taxes, and compensated those most affected.
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longweekend58
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Re: Another 'Climate Change' failure...
Reply #107 - Dec 14th, 2010 at 11:50am
 
Dsmithy70 wrote on Dec 14th, 2010 at 11:37am:
longweekend58 wrote on Dec 14th, 2010 at 11:28am:
Verge wrote on Dec 14th, 2010 at 11:24am:
Does anyone here honestly believe any government is capable of introducing this tax and using the tax dollars effectivley to combat climate change.

All I see is another level and department of government chewing massive dollars in administration while nothing is really done.

Take the speed camera revenue in Victoria, it hasnt decreased the road toll, the roads arent any better so where has it gone?

I have issues with coughing up money to any government that is incapable of actually using the money for its intended purpose.  To me its just going to be another slush fund and the public service will get fatter.


and it isnt just Labor. Labor waste a crap load of money but the best you can say about the Libs is that they waste slightly less. they are ALL terrible.

Agreed!


It is amazing to watch government at all levels spend enormous amounts on projects that fail. The BER is a classic example of where anything the govt gets involved in costs 3 times as much as anybody else. The waste is astonishing but what is worse is when you see public servants having no problem spending 10 times as much to renovate an office than they would renovating their entire home and having no problem.
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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."
 
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Sprintcyclist
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Re: Another 'Climate Change' failure...
Reply #108 - Dec 14th, 2010 at 11:52am
 

longweekend - Quote:
.......The Carbon Tax - like tariffs before it - is well intentioned but fatally flawed....


a whopping great new tax on air that does nothign for the globe is NOT well intentioned.
it's smacking idiotic
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Modern Classic Right Wing
 
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Miss Anne Dryst
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Re: Another 'Climate Change' failure...
Reply #109 - Dec 14th, 2010 at 11:57am
 
Sprintcyclist wrote on Dec 14th, 2010 at 11:52am:
longweekend - Quote:
.......The Carbon Tax - like tariffs before it - is well intentioned but fatally flawed....


a whopping great new tax on air that does nothign for the globe is NOT well intentioned.
it's smacking idiotic




The carbon tax would probably also capture the exhilation from our own population, as afterall we exhale about 1kg of carbon dioxide daily!

So Julia Gillard wants to tax our breathing!!!
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Dsmithy70
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Re: Another 'Climate Change' failure...
Reply #110 - Dec 14th, 2010 at 12:16pm
 
longweekend58 wrote on Dec 14th, 2010 at 11:50am:
Dsmithy70 wrote on Dec 14th, 2010 at 11:37am:
longweekend58 wrote on Dec 14th, 2010 at 11:28am:
Verge wrote on Dec 14th, 2010 at 11:24am:
Does anyone here honestly believe any government is capable of introducing this tax and using the tax dollars effectivley to combat climate change.

All I see is another level and department of government chewing massive dollars in administration while nothing is really done.

Take the speed camera revenue in Victoria, it hasnt decreased the road toll, the roads arent any better so where has it gone?

I have issues with coughing up money to any government that is incapable of actually using the money for its intended purpose.  To me its just going to be another slush fund and the public service will get fatter.


and it isnt just Labor. Labor waste a crap load of money but the best you can say about the Libs is that they waste slightly less. they are ALL terrible.

Agreed!


It is amazing to watch government at all levels spend enormous amounts on projects that fail. The BER is a classic example of where anything the govt gets involved in costs 3 times as much as anybody else. The waste is astonishing but what is worse is when you see public servants having no problem spending 10 times as much to renovate an office than they would renovating their entire home and having no problem.

You see Longy, thats your problem
You say something sensible then go and spoil it with partisian cr@p
The BER of NSW is actually coming in at 5% UNDER BUDGET
I quote todays SMH
Quote:
Less than estimated

To say there was a ''blow-out'' of $188 million in the Building the Education Revolution program is factually and contextually incorrect (''Auditor attacks $188m school blow-out'', December 8).

The figure of $188 million mentioned in the Auditor-General's report and the accompanying press release refers only to estimated construction sums the department accepted, not the actual cost of building contracts or projects. With 75 per cent of the $3 billion program complete in NSW, tendered prices are averaging 5 per cent less than the estimated construction sums.

Angus Dawson BER Program Director, Sydney


A better more even post would have been that everyone tries to rort the government, overcharging at ridiculous amounts & are too stupid to realise they only people  they are ripping off are themselves & the rest of the community.
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REBELLION is not what most people think it is.
REBELLION is when you turn off the TV & start educating & thinking for yourself.
Gavin Nascimento
 
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gizmo_2655
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Re: Another 'Climate Change' failure...
Reply #111 - Dec 14th, 2010 at 12:23pm
 
Please delete wrote on Dec 14th, 2010 at 8:08am:
Copernicus ... Brahe ... Kepler .... Galileo

Gravity - concentrate, the issue was gravity (and evolution)



I was concentrating on Gravity.....

Copernicus, Brahe, Kepler and Galileo were the giants Newton was talking about, when he said "If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants"...
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"I just get sick of people who place a label on someone else with their own definition.

It's similar to a strawman fallacy"
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Re: Another 'Climate Change' failure...
Reply #112 - Dec 14th, 2010 at 12:27pm
 
The thing is if the Government puts it into 'General Revenue' it will just get lost and wasted - like everything else.

Governments waste money, always have, always will.

Hence why I have no issue with cutting every corner in the book to deny them revenue from me.
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Anyone who lives within their means suffers from a lack of imagination - Oscar Wilde
 
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gizmo_2655
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Re: Another 'Climate Change' failure...
Reply #113 - Dec 14th, 2010 at 12:29pm
 
Please delete wrote on Dec 14th, 2010 at 8:27am:
"Why make them pay more?"

Because something has to be done.

"What does it achieve?"

It funds clean technologies, that will hopefully arrest the increase in GGs.

"It certainly doesn't stop the planet's climate changing."

I think you are not qualified to say this.


That's the nub of the problem ernie, the Copenhagen Accord (which didn't pass) AND the Cancun Accord (which did) carry no provision to use the money to fund research...instead the money will be sent to developing nations, who will most likely use it to build factories, power stations and iron smelters, most of which will be coal or oil powered....
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"I just get sick of people who place a label on someone else with their own definition.

It's similar to a strawman fallacy"
Bobbythebat
 
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Re: Another 'Climate Change' failure...
Reply #114 - Dec 14th, 2010 at 12:35pm
 
"most likely use it to build factories, power stations and iron smelters, most of which will be coal or oil powered.... "

Assumption.

And the technology will be cleaner than it would have otherwise been, because of research done in the West and the East (but NOT Australia, the way we go about things)
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Re: Another 'Climate Change' failure...
Reply #115 - Dec 14th, 2010 at 12:47pm
 
Please delete wrote on Dec 14th, 2010 at 12:35pm:
"most likely use it to build factories, power stations and iron smelters, most of which will be coal or oil powered.... "

Assumption.

And the technology will be cleaner than it would have otherwise been, because of research done in the West and the East (but NOT Australia, the way we go about things)



Yes it's an assumption, but a reasonably likely one.
The 3 things poor nations need most are Electricity, jobs and manufacturing..

The simplest,consistent, baseload power source is a coal/gas or oil fired power station (which can be built where the are no rivers).

The best source of jobs for unskilled or semi skilled workers is mining and iron smelting.

And the commonest manufactured goods that people want are appliances (fridges, stoves, washing machines etc) and cars.....all of which require metals to build..

I doubt the first thing a poor or developing nation is going to build will be a nuclear power station or solar thermal farm......because the educational levels don't exist for enough of the population, and a deisre for self-sufficiency would make it unlikely that the countries would want to hire a mass of westerners to build and run the facilities for them...
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"I just get sick of people who place a label on someone else with their own definition.

It's similar to a strawman fallacy"
Bobbythebat
 
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Re: Another 'Climate Change' failure...
Reply #116 - Dec 14th, 2010 at 12:52pm
 
"I doubt the first thing a poor or developing nation is going to build will be a nuclear power station or solar thermal "

Exactly why they are putting together a fund - to tie grants to ensure developments are clean.

Why does it bother you to help countries develop, to allow people to enjoy some of the benefits we enjoy?

Are you determined that they stay in poverty??
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Re: Another 'Climate Change' failure...
Reply #117 - Dec 14th, 2010 at 12:54pm
 
The "poverty line" in Australia is $33,000 pa (correct me if I'm wrong).

In China, the average annual income is $800 or so.

Why are you and Hicks so dead set against the developing world getting developed?
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Re: Another 'Climate Change' failure...
Reply #118 - Dec 14th, 2010 at 1:11pm
 
Please delete wrote on Dec 14th, 2010 at 12:54pm:
The "poverty line" in Australia is $33,000 pa (correct me if I'm wrong).

In China, the average annual income is $800 or so.

Why are you and Hicks so dead set against the developing world getting developed?

Because there'd be no more cheap labour then.
The irony did dawn on me yesterday with Andrei quoting GW Bush & American jobs in the Climate changed debate.
He had no such concerns when his industry mates were outsourcing said jobs to the 3rd world for no other reason than a better bottom line.
Also quoting Ronald Regan about America picking up cheques was quite funny too seeing he & every republican president since has done nothing but double if not triple the US's debt whilst in office.
Never let facts or history get in the way of a good rant Wink
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REBELLION is not what most people think it is.
REBELLION is when you turn off the TV & start educating & thinking for yourself.
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gizmo_2655
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Re: Another 'Climate Change' failure...
Reply #119 - Dec 14th, 2010 at 1:12pm
 
Please delete wrote on Dec 14th, 2010 at 12:52pm:
"I doubt the first thing a poor or developing nation is going to build will be a nuclear power station or solar thermal "

Exactly why they are putting together a fund - to tie grants to ensure developments are clean.

Why does it bother you to help countries develop, to allow people to enjoy some of the benefits we enjoy?

Are you determined that they stay in poverty??


It doesn't bother me, I'd help the developing nations climb out of poverty any way I could.

But I'm still a realist, and I know that just shovelling money to them isn't the way to do it.
If we want to help them, instead of giving them cash, fund and build the technology ourselves, and train their people in the process..

You and I both know that with some of government system that currently exist in Africa, most of the money wouldn't be used to upgrade the lives of the poor, with infrastructure like water, power schools hospital etc, it'd be used to prop up the government regime and buy bigger and better guns...

As the old saying goes, 'Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day.....TEACH a man to fish, and you feed him for the rest of his life'....

Just throwing cash at poor nations is giving them 'a fish'....
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"I just get sick of people who place a label on someone else with their own definition.

It's similar to a strawman fallacy"
Bobbythebat
 
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