Andrei.Hicks wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2010 at 11:50am:


Farming no longer drives this country. If anything they are becoming parasitic. This country has a strong emotional connection to rural australia, but the reality is quite different. Unfoprtunately in politics we tend to be guided by that emotional connection. Farmers and politicians milk it for all it's worth. They feel no shame in demanding that Australians pay more for our food so that they don't have to change the way they do things, so that they can continue running a business the same way their ancestors did 100 years ago.

The nationals do well out there for one reason - self interest.

Ooops, my mistake. Meant to say that Australian farmers are highly advanced.

How so?

freediver wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2010 at 11:59am:


Freeloaddiver,

Most of the food we eat comes from Australian farmers. Prices are rising primarily because retailers and distributors are increasing their profits. By and large, prices paid at the farm gate are declining. Australian agriculture is recognised as among the most advanced, efficient and innovative in the world.

As the price of fossil fuels increases and availability declines, biofuels will become increasingly important. As the source of such fuels, the significance of agriculture can only be enhanced. Unfortunately, suitable land is limited. Land used for biofuels cannot be used for food. Biofuels also cost more than the fossil fuels currently used and fuel is a necessary part of food distribution. If you think the cost of food is something to whinge about, you aint seen nothin' yet.

If anything, it's cities that are parasitic. I was born and raised in Sydney, but these days it just gets in the way when I want to get somewhere else.

freediver wrote on Aug 29^th, 2010 at 9:18am:



Yes, most dairy farmers did oppose deregulation....for just this reason.
The old 'milk board' (or whatever it was called) set a minimum price for buying FROM the farm, and a maximum price for selling to the public....Once deregulation hit, the manufacturers(dairy companies like Dairy Farmers Cooperative) lowered the amount the farmer was paid, and raised the amount we pay.

The only people happy about that are the maunfacturers...

The same with grain....the big grain handling companies (GrainCorp etc) are the one increasing the prices...the grower is getting the same or less per bushel......even though the 'price' for grain keeps going up....

I don't think Australian Farmers are the most ADVANCED, unless you base your advancement upon the inclusion of Technology (Toys).
Technology isn't everything and it the long run it just costs more to run and maintain so I wouldn't quite call that 'smart'.
The majority of these so-called Technologically advanced Farmers hold on to out-dated methods and environmental philosphies. The fact that Australia holds onto Sheep as the pride of its Farming culture sums up the archaic way of life.
Not only this, it seems the Environmentalists are far more advanced in the treatment and living quality of the land.
Some Farmers still suck up to the City culture as the dominant culture and thus consider 'the Land' as something of a downtrodden tragedy ...with their corrugated tin shacks (zzzzz) and John Williamson songs, etc.
Well those Farmers can exist in the negative if they want.

There are Farmers who are progressive and aren't afraid to take advice or work with the Environmentalists and Conservationists. Some have even transformed their properties into absolute Farming wonders without the reliance upon big Chemical and Technology Companies.
Just Common Sense and the ability to see the Australian Land for what it is and not what it isn't in comparison to 'old England' and other parts of the world.
One Farmer in SA copped Australia's biggest Environmental Fine from the Govt/CSIRO because he changed his parched land into a wetland oasis.
The control-freak Govts/CSIRO don't like it when people upstage them and know better than 'their' so-called Environmentalists.

I personally would breed Kangaroos and even stud em up back to the prehistoric 12ft size ...might even get to ride one. How good would that be! Kangaroo meat is top quality, better than beef and even if piously patriotic Aussies can't come to terms with eating something on their national Coat of Arms (For a nation of so-called 'Poor', makes you wonder why the Roo & Emu were put there in the first place, eh), I'm sure the International Market would readily consume. I know that Deer Venison in New Zealand is beating Lamb hands down. Deer are cheaper to maintain, earn better dollar$, Hunters pay to shoot them and they don't ruin the land as much as sheep. More NZ Farmers are converting to Deer.

I believe the Middle-Man is ripping both Farmer and Consumer off though, but they are also being priced up from all that is incorporated into packaging, production, postage, etc. Welcome to the Great Inflation.

In NZ, if you live in the Cities, you are likely to be served the Overseas non-fresh crap stuff - sometimes very over-priced.
If you live in rural NZ, you just go next door or down the road and buy direct for fresher and higher quality food compared to imported.

I would also like to say that it is a SHAME that Scam Shitney ...er, I mean Sydney has turned into a sprawl of cement and tar and smog.
It would have made an amazing Farming region much like the Nile Delta ...being a Basin and all. Pity.

One of the most fundamental ways in which Australian farming is stuck in the past is farm size. You can actually get maps from the DPI showing which farming areas have farms that are too small to be competitive.

While most Australians businesses have had to compete on a level playing field and scale up to remain competitive, most Australian farmers are running the same sized business as their grandparents, yet expecting to be able to afford all the mod cons and run their farms with modern equipment.

If you run a factory in the city and you go belly up, you don't expect the country to mourn the loss. But you get a documentary made about if if you have to bulldoze a couple of fruit trees.

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For the population, it is justified. After all, most Australians live in coastal cities. It is people in rural areas who get subsidised transport. All those roads are not cheap, and it's not like the people living out there pay enough tax to cover the cost.

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Sounds like a policy the greens supposedly used to have, until they came to their senses.

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If pipes have too much friction what makes you think canals will work? How do they go getting uphill? Can you explain why there are so many projects to get rid of these open canals in order to increase crop production per litre of water? Are these farmers making a mistake?

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Yes FreeDiver, they are making a mistake.
Its a practice that the early Samericans put into use to great effect - they supported millions by this method.
An 'open' Canal releases any heat made by friction of large amounts of moving water into open air, unlike a closed pipe. Anything bigger than the ones in Sydney for Sydney Water  tend to cause buckling.
The so called 'Greens' aren't real Greens - they're just another bunch of Polititians aren't they. Its not like they are really out there ...on the land. Hell, they wish to legalise Heroin. 
The transferance of water uphill (or through via tunnels) is by ducting systems - not to hard to do at all. Of course it would be hard to transport water up really steep inclines or gradients.

...since this idea came into effect 10 years ago, there hasn't been a better idea since to replace it. Maybe the fact that it is not an Anglo-Saxon idea, might be why it is not supported more so although those that do, seem to be the type of Farmers that are progressive and make a 'profit' efficiently and comfortably beyond the reach of oppressive CSIRO & Govt 'control'.
A lot of 'Political Australia' doesn't like things going on in Australia that might lead this country into a better future and 'Political Australia ...behind. So Political Australia makes sure everything is 'chained down' and with words like "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" - this Country slowly goes nowhere but into the slow death of stagnation. No offence Political Australia - but 'political australia' IS BROKE (starting with NSW).

Hope this helps.
Progressive thinking and practices and results is far better long term than short fixes of 'cash'. What good is cash when most just leave Australia and go overseas to spend it.
Instead of burning and back-burning huge amounts of land around people who cry foul for living in 'fire-prone' regions ...why not build 'Fire-Proof' Houses, etc? The Straw Bale House is possibly the most superior and cheapest form of housing. It takes a good 1/2 hour for fire to burn anywhere near 'through' the wall. But I guess the Building Industry prefers the Australian Public to buy more expensive and inferior materials and makes sure the Council's endorse such inadequate methods.
No - just quick fix cash and she'll be right mate.

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But it is the friction that is the problem, not the heat generated. A pipe is more than capable of dispersing enough heat to compensate for friction. Have you ever heard of a water pipe overheating due to fluid resistance?

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Buckling of what?

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Of course. Not sure what your point is though. No matter what happens, you only ever get to vote for a politician.

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LOL.

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Compared to pumping, it is absurdly difficult. Which is why the cost is so high.

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Are you saying people only thought to make canals 10 years ago?

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What exactly are you criticising now?

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Unless of course you throw pipes into the equation. Then it looks outdated and wasteful.

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Not to mention holes that leak all the water. Having a dig is the only sane way to approach canal building.

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I thought you were worried about friction related heat? Do you have any clue what you are talking about? How about you compare the actual losses of a pipe and an equivalent canal system.

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Crap.

freediver wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2010 at 11:59am:



What a pant load 

Food production holds a high level of strategic importance for any country and ensuring that capability remains is critical.

There is no-one so ignorant and yet so sure, as a city prong-head when talking about issues relating to regional areas and farming.

I did prove my Point FD, I mentioned the Canal System was based upon the 'early' Samericans who used smaller systems over vast expanses of land to 'irrigate' their crops to support a population that was x20 times as much as most other civilisations at the time.

During the night, moisture would rise up from the irrigation canals and water the crops via the process of 'dew'. It was subtle but effective form of watering the garden.

Having been around New Zealand a bit, they too use Irrigation Canal systems. But in NZ'ds case, they have a very natural and excellent waterway system that gives them quality water and irrigation.

Of course there is no 'actual' example upon such a large example of using such a Canal system. Mr Andrews in South Australia, turned his property into a wetland oasis from scub - for the benefit of both his stock and local wildlife, by using Canal systems. Sadly he was 'fined' hundreds of thousands of dollars, because he did something different and, besides successful, beyond the jurisdiction of the Governmental CSIRO. Seems the Australian Government cannot move into the future unless it is a UK-USA future, and only looks at anything domestically in the way of a possible 'fine'.
Its embarressing to see that the Opera House is the only 'uniquely Australian' thing to emerge in this country in its 200+ 'global' history.
The Big Barnacle on its Great Boring Land Mass.

If its about putting things up in this post, well my apologies, I'm not as computer savvy as you, besides being an excellent writer - but I can only state that this ain't vague ranting. The giant Canal system is a positive step into a better Australian future for the land. Take a look at some suburbs that are become self-sufficient in filtering their own water usage via 'aquifying' ponds. There is one north of Adelaide and another currently being built in NSW.

I would have thought, being a FreeDiver, you would jump in at the chance of having a paddle in the giant Canals?

When the global economy was looking a bit frazzled, the UK suffered considerably because it has basically dispensed with 'farming' as a major source of income for the nation. These days, the UK is primarily reliant upon Service Provider businesses.
Pretty sad really 

If 'Relief Packages' aren't the go during Drought/Flood & even Bushfire times ...which will always happen.
Then stand by progressive thinking, theories, acts and innovation, etc.
Don't just stand around and say "Can't do that or i'll fine ya"
...unless 'fines' are a form of future pay for the underprivaleged Australian?

Australia was once a giant Inland Sea ...its ripe for irrigation upon such a large scale.

Oi Freediver, could you tell us a little more about how much money farmers get? How widespread is this practice here?

freediver wrote on Sep 1^st, 2010 at 9:28pm:



Uhuh.....And if ALL the farmers lose their farms......who will there be to GROW the food???
Bankers????

Interesting discussion, and I liked JA's canal ideas, sort of a venice of the south, we could have the cash handouts delivered straight to the farm gate via gondolier.

I am a city boy, married to a farm girl, and farmers are dumb, self serving and incompetent.
Woah, that is pretty harsh.
I know, and it is pretty sad too, and all the cretins that complain about the bank taking the farm, know very well that the next door neighbour took the farm, not the bank, because he saw sooner than you, that you have to farm large scale or die out.
I remember sitting in my father in laws house watching Landline after sunday lunch one day, when the milk deregulation hooha was going on.
There was this QLD dairy farmer complaining that he already milked 70 cows a day, and could not make a living, my father in law laughed, he and his sister milked more than 70 a day by hand when they were young, at the time they were doing almost 700 in a rotary.
So the "real" dairy farmer laughed at what he considered a pretend dairy farmer, there was no great camaraderie of the bush going on, just one totally inefficient small businessman whingeing that he did not know how to run his business, and suggesting that we all pay him instead.

There was one issue that JA raised that is interesting, and that is where farmland becomes too valuable to farm, and ends up under tar and concrete instead, but that is the free market for you.

Wouldn't Parramatta River look nice if both sides were done up nice and Gondolas drifted from side to side down past Auburn or somewhere? 

Canals:
Open to the elements for the benefit of Flora and Fauna.
Open to a boy with a bucket of water and a Farmer with acres of crop to water.
Open to cool the immediate area and collectively lower the temp in a harsh interior.
Open to add moisture upon the land during the night.
Open to add moisture into the sky via evaporation during the night.
Open to give availabilty to greater populations inland and relieve the Coastal areas of high density populations.
Open to partition areas of land and prevent/control outbreaks of fire, pests and whatever else decides to cause a problem
Open to allow recreational activities along the waterways
Open to allow another form of transport that doesn't need maintenance like potholes and washouts.

...and thats just some.

Agree, there are a lot of Farmers out there that are just in it for the quick-fix of cash payouts.
I tend to only take serious, Farmers who aren't arrogant to take advice or work with Environmentalists and Conservationists amongst others who know the 'land' just as well as they do. Some Farmers are just parasites to the land. Pumping layer upon layer of chemicals upon the land and then yelling "Relief Package please!", when the soil goes sterile. These Farmers tend to jack up their 'Hard Yakka - Man of the Land' image just for the City people who don't know any better, not that its their fault.

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Enough to compensate for all the water lost to evaporation? Or just a tiny fraction?

I see Bob Katter is now trying to demand Australians pay more for their food for the benefit of farmers.

freediver wrote on Sep 3^rd, 2010 at 10:13pm:



Probably just a tiny fraction.....There was a discussion a few years back about covering the canals in summer to reduce evaporation...

Running canals down from QLD and through Northern NSW.....well I'd think some form of covering would be essential.....

All these crazy ideas about lakes and trees bringing in the rain have been well and truly debunked. It is a monumental waste, unless of course you have some magical source of water - but if you had that, the rain wouldn't seem quite so important.

Nothing else offered up? How about not wasting huge quantities of water on the dryest continent on earth? How about piping the water instead?

Exactly!

...and if it rains,
where's it gonna run into?

= a Canal,

- not a Pipe.

I must say Freediver, there are many instances where Canals CAN'T be created and this is where Pipes would come into effect I'm sure.
Not all of the terrain is suited to Canals in regards to moving the water from A to B to C ...to Z.

With this said, I'm sure the people of the recently Flooded Ballarat area would like some Canals to filter the waters away to some part of Australia that could do with it. Then again, maybe I'm wrong and the locals just want Cash in Hand  

Australia consisted of huge wetlands and swamps which sustained the land and fauna. When Europeans arrived, they dug canals and drained these away. Now the soil is exhausted and dry. The Murray River is a good example, and what does the Labor government do? Buy back water entitlements and tip the water back into the ditch! What do they do on the Darling? Spend literally millions of dollars buying back a water conserving property, (the sellers must be laughing all the way to the bank), and now the property is apparently dry as a chip.
Unbelievable. Just shows you how much city based politicians and bureaucrats don't know - people see them as stupid cash cows.
This ignorance is literally ruining this country.

The immediate purpose of the Canals which I am talking about is for alleviating the problems of Flood and Drought.
The byproduct of these Canals are many...
By creating a spiderweb, just to name a design, of giant Canals acrosss the Continent, where smaller minor Canals run off and into - you create a watery availabilty to the environment.
Like I said: If a Canal ran its way through the Simpson Desert - there would be a degree of temperature change and humidity as water passed back and forth (depending on where it was needed) and sometimes remained stationary. During the day there would be evaporation - but this evaporation would be in the immediate atmosphere, which 'could' occassionally result in light rain for want of none at all come the afternoon. During the night, the cool moisture of the water would drift across the immediate land - resulting in dew, a form of watering the garden ...night after night.
Animals of all kinds would be able to 'drink' and participate via these water Canals in greater proliferation than just the odd Lake Eyre moment.
People would have more availabilty to water and usage.
By the availability of such water, more TREES can be grown and supported - resulting in cooler temps, shade for better soil (because worms aren't burnt out of existence from an ever present sun beating down upon the soil), more 02 for an ever dwindling atmosphere, higher probability for decent rains.
The compartmental of land by the Canals running this way and that, would result in a large number of Bridges being built (but I'm sure us Australians are cool with that considering the Sydney Harbour Bridge for starters) - and Pest Species being easily erradicated or controlled due to isolation techniques with the help of such compartmentality of the land by Canal bounderies.
Bushfires might be better contained in areas where a Canal blocks further progression.
During Sydney's 'Water Shortage' years - When the rains did evetually hit, only 18 inches would fall into Warragamba Dam (a few metres worth was Algae plagued) but a whopping 20 metres worth would fall upon Sydney streets, down stormwater drains and out to sea.
In person, a lot of Sydney Water Employees would tell me "A complete 'effin Waste!!"
The World looks to Australia for Water wisdom and expertise and it might be our best asset as surely as the Americans are the best at Flight and Space.

The advantages are endless and I'm sure there is much more than I know.
But if you think such a system is just for Euro-Venetian Gondolas ...I'm sure the Canals can accommodate your sense of Romance as I'm sure they would lend much to such novel experiences in the future.

"Row row row ya boat, gently down the stream (canal). Merrily merrily - life is but a 'dream'."

There are scientifically proven methods based upon ancient civilisations that show that by you standing at the end of one canal and bucketing the water up and into another canal - to be the most effective. 

Seriously though, this Country (who cares what Flag and what Name the Country is!!) needs to prioritise its 'use' of WATER. Besides the whole world waiting for us the become the most advanced nation in that field, 'we' need to take control for ourselves as well.
The recent Victorian Floods just prove what we are left with and this is something that quick-fix Cash-Handouts will never rectify.
We need SOLUTIONS and we need ACTION with the best of those solutions. So what if 50 years down the track, the Solution becomes 'outdated', at least it has done its time for what it is worth.

>Fix up our natural waterways (even if they are shallow and warm/evaporate quickly) that are in place already.
>Plan distribute Canal, Pipe, Drainage sytems that are aided by various methods of control in moving, purifying, recycling and containing.
>Get the Prisoners out into the sunshine to do 'some' work besides buggering each other, doing Smack and watching Foxtel.
>Get the Dole Bludgers out to do some 'constructive' Work For the Dole Schemes.
>Etc (I'm sure)

Its as simple as Tic-Tac-Toe: Have a vacant square of desert, add four lines of water (canals) and within a few years you have something from nothing to play with.

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What else would you expect?