Australian Politics Forum - TO THE DENIALIST/ALARMISTS

muso

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Re: TO THE DENIALIST/ALARMISTS
Reply #15 - Dec 12^th, 2009 at 11:09am

aikmann4 wrote on Dec 12^th, 2009 at 1:46am:

Tom definitely has a point about Mozzaok's argumentative style. He tends to argue by calling everybody else a conspiracy nut or by immediately dismissing the points of others (without actually refuting them) as outdated and ridiculous; he did this with me frequently when I first registered.

It's a great temptation. I have to deliberately steer away from such remarks, even if it's obvious that these people such as Monckton are 'making stuff up'.

It's very difficult to attack the argument when they don't have a concrete argument. They don't post in Scientific journals because they wouldn't get past peer review, so they publish in Newspapers and Blogs instead.

All they do is say things like AGW is a hoax, or attack Al Gore (a communicator). The guy is not a scientist. He's just a very good mouthpiece and communicator. The same can be said of Christopher Monckton, although quite frankly he gets through a lot of time without making a point. He is a very adept waffler.

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Soren

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Re: TO THE DENIALIST/ALARMISTS
Reply #16 - Dec 12^th, 2009 at 11:32am

muso wrote on Dec 12^th, 2009 at 11:09am:

aikmann4 wrote on Dec 12^th, 2009 at 1:46am:

Tom definitely has a point about Mozzaok's argumentative style. He tends to argue by calling everybody else a conspiracy nut or by immediately dismissing the points of others (without actually refuting them) as outdated and ridiculous; he did this with me frequently when I first registered.

It's a great temptation. I have to deliberately steer away from such remarks, even if it's obvious that these people such as Monckton are 'making stuff up'.

It's very difficult to attack the argument when they don't have a concrete argument. They don't post in Scientific journals because they wouldn't get past peer review, so they publish in Newspapers and Blogs instead.

All they do is say things like AGW is a hoax, or attack Al Gore (a communicator). The guy is not a scientist. He's just a very good mouthpiece and communicator. The same can be said of Christopher Monckton, although quite frankly he gets through a lot of time without making a point. He is a very adept waffler.

Don't you just love that? "My mouthpiece is a very good communicator, yours is a waffler, his a nazi."

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muso

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Re: TO THE DENIALIST/ALARMISTS
Reply #17 - Dec 12^th, 2009 at 2:19pm

Soren wrote on Dec 12^th, 2009 at 11:32am:

Don't you just love that? "My mouthpiece is a very good communicator, yours is a waffler, his a nazi."

If he had some decent subject matter, I'm sure that he'd do a good job of communication, especially in the US. They love his accent and pretentious wit. They are totally oblivious to the fact that he's a prime upper crust English looney.

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Soren

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Re: TO THE DENIALIST/ALARMISTS
Reply #18 - Dec 12^th, 2009 at 3:00pm

muso wrote on Dec 12^th, 2009 at 2:19pm:

Soren wrote on Dec 12^th, 2009 at 11:32am:

Don't you just love that? "My mouthpiece is a very good communicator, yours is a waffler, his a nazi."

If he had some decent subject matter, I'm sure that he'd do a good job of communication, especially in the US. They love his accent and pretentious wit. They are totally oblivious to the fact that he's a prime upper crust English looney.

And what is Gore if not a prime uppercrust American looney?

There has been requests already for examples - not relying on some greenie hungerstriker's youtube effort - where he or anyone else 'made stuff up'. Are you still searching?

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muso

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Re: TO THE DENIALIST/ALARMISTS
Reply #19 - Dec 12^th, 2009 at 3:16pm

I don't have any real comment on Gore. I don't know very much about him. He's irrelevant, except as a communicator. Some of the emphasis he puts on things is unusual to me. There is a danger inherent in simplification, just as there is a danger inherent in presenting too complex an explanation.

It's very difficult to communicate what is so obvious. To understand that it's obvious takes a bit of effort unfortunately.

Is what you said regarding whales actually being propagated on some of these disinformation blogs, and are people actually falling for the view that the CO2 comes from the sea, or is it something you made up on the spur of the moment?

I'll be honest, that post totally floored me. I can't think of a trivial comparison off hand. It was just Daliesque.

It's not your fault that you don't have any scientific background, I guess. Take this post as a reflection rather than anything else.

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Soren

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Re: TO THE DENIALIST/ALARMISTS
Reply #20 - Dec 12^th, 2009 at 9:02pm

muso wrote on Dec 12^th, 2009 at 3:16pm:

I don't have any real comment on Gore. I don't know very much about him. He's irrelevant, except as a communicator. Some of the emphasis he puts on things is unusual to me. There is a danger inherent in simplification, just as there is a danger inherent in presenting too complex an explanation.

It's very difficult to communicate what is so obvious. To understand that it's obvious takes a bit of effort unfortunately.

Is what you said regarding whales actually being propagated on some of these disinformation blogs, and are people actually falling for the view that the CO2 comes from the sea, or is it something you made up on the spur of the moment?

I'll be honest, that post totally floored me. I can't think of a trivial comparison off hand. It was just Daliesque.

It's not your fault that you don't have any scientific background, I guess. Take this post as a reflection rather than anything else.

Gore is the public face of what you stand for, every bit as much as you make Monckton the face of what I am saying. SO embrace him. I like Monckton, I like the idea of a Latin quoting, CoE aristo toff sticking it to the colonials (Americans). It is so unusual nowadats that it deserves top marks for panache.

Re whales - I was channeling Derek and Clive, you big scary scientist, you. Get up off the floor. Grin

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_pS6lbbQw3o

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Soren Gold Member Offline Posts: 25654 Gender:	Re: TO THE DENIALIST/ALARMISTS Reply #21 - Dec 12^th, 2009 at 9:08pm muso wrote on Dec 12^th, 2009 at 3:16pm: It's not your fault that you don't have any scientific background, I guess. As things stand, I'm counting my blessings.
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muso

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Re: TO THE DENIALIST/ALARMISTS
Reply #22 - Dec 13^th, 2009 at 6:29am

Soren wrote on Dec 12^th, 2009 at 9:08pm:

muso wrote on Dec 12^th, 2009 at 3:16pm:

It's not your fault that you don't have any scientific background, I guess.

As things stand, I'm counting my blessings.
Wink

It's a worrying trend. People are losing respect for those who have a scientific discipline. We're lapsing into a world where shamans and quacks will take over from those who use a reasoned approach.

When it gets as far as government, with the recent example of G W Bush consulting the high priests of religion before the rational advice of science, that's the time we should be very worried.

Now we have Tony Abbott as an opposition leader, there is a grave danger that the flickering flame of enlightenment and reason will extinguish for ever and we'll sink into another dark age - one where nobody will be around to explain why the sea is full of rotting decay and people are dying everywhere due to lack of food. They will probably blame it all on a sky god and take refuge in the words of ancient texts that foretell the end of the world.

I think I'm wasting my time here. Just a couple of quotes from Idiocracy before I go:

Quote:

After several hours Joe finally gave up on logic and reason and simply told the cabinet that he could talk to plants and that they wanted water.

Quote:

It says on your chart that you're buggered up. Uh... you talk like a fag, and your sh1t's all retarded.

I've already seen parallels to that one on here.

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« Last Edit: Dec 13^th, 2009 at 6:41am by muso »

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muso Gold Member Offline Posts: 13151 Gladstone, Queensland Gender:	Re: TO THE DENIALIST/ALARMISTS Reply #23 - Dec 15^th, 2009 at 9:12am Off-Topic replies have been moved to this Topic.
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Soren

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Re: TO THE DENIALIST/ALARMISTS
Reply #24 - Feb 5^th, 2010 at 11:39am

muso wrote on Dec 13^th, 2009 at 6:29am:

Soren wrote on Dec 12^th, 2009 at 9:08pm:

muso wrote on Dec 12^th, 2009 at 3:16pm:

It's not your fault that you don't have any scientific background, I guess.

As things stand, I'm counting my blessings.
Wink

It's a worrying trend. People are losing respect for those who have a scientific discipline. We're lapsing into a world where shamans and quacks will take over from those who use a reasoned approach.

Another blow for the climate change lobby: Prince Charles
Friday, 5th February 2010
This has been an appalling couple of months for the climate change lobby and now there’s been another, sickening, blow – which some of you, undecided in the debate, may well feel is the clincher. Prince Charles has waded into the issue, eviscerating climate change sceptics. “Please be in no doubt that the evidence of long term and potentially irreversible changes to our world is utterly overwhelming,” he said. Hell, you could almost see them, at the IPCC and UEA, cringing, banging their heads against their computers upon which they were, at that very moment, making things up. Just what you need, the support of Prince Charles. It came on the same day that he said he didn’t agree with The Enlightenment.

The debate has changed, enormously so, since last Autumn. The BBC, for example, is slightly less likely to dismiss climate change deniers out of hand as being whacko right-wing headcases – even when they sometimes are whacko right-wing headcases. Admissions of error from the IPCC and the UEA have effectively re-opened a debate, which is a good thing.

It still seems to me rather more likely than not that man-made climate change is taking place and that even if it were not, the procedures demanded of us are necessary anyway for a whole host of other reasons. But the world is beginning to grip hold of the fact that science cannot be divorced from the personal or political imperatives which impel (or fund) its inquiries. Nothing is quite so simple as a “fact”. The less trident and cocksure the pronouncements from the climate change lobbyists, the more agreeable the rest of us may be to their demands.

That last sentence is a lesson yet to be learned by the messianic warmerists among us, isn't it, M & M?

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muso Gold Member Offline Posts: 13151 Gladstone, Queensland Gender:	Re: TO THE DENIALIST/ALARMISTS Reply #25 - Feb 5^th, 2010 at 6:17pm M & M = McIntyre and McKitrick ? The bean counter and mining CEO? What have they got to do with anything?
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Soren Gold Member Offline Posts: 25654 Gender:	Re: TO THE DENIALIST/ALARMISTS Reply #26 - Feb 5^th, 2010 at 9:34pm muso wrote on Feb 5^th, 2010 at 6:17pm: M & M = McIntyre and McKitrick ? Mozza and Muso. I didn't want to write 'smarties'...
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muso Gold Member Offline Posts: 13151 Gladstone, Queensland Gender:	Re: TO THE DENIALIST/ALARMISTS Reply #27 - Feb 6^th, 2010 at 3:14pm So in a nutshell, "You're probably right about the fact that there is a serious impending crisis and all that, but don't be so bloody arrogant about it because it pisses us off having to face the truth, and another thing - just keep it down, because we're trying to sleep and ignore it."
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Soren

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Re: TO THE DENIALIST/ALARMISTS
Reply #28 - Feb 6^th, 2010 at 5:07pm

muso wrote on Feb 6^th, 2010 at 3:14pm:

So in a nutshell,

"You're probably right about the fact that there is a serious impending crisis and all that, but don't be so bloody arrogant about it because it pisses us off having to face the truth, and another thing - just keep it down, because we're trying to sleep and ignore it."

Argued like a Muslim.

Either that or all who find themselves on the 'lost credibility' side of any dialogue resort to the same technique: "you know we are right but you are soo arrogant/enemy of god/satanic/conspiratorial/ignorant - always ignorant- that you want us to be humble about the blindingly obvious truth we, WE, possess. Never!"

But the reality is that it shouldn't be so hard if you are so obviously right. But implicit in your way of arguing is the unacknowledged (because unrecognised) inkling that this is not a straightforward scientific argument in the mould of a mathematical solution , where there is only one answer. No, this is an argument about paradigms, first and foremost. Or the very least it might be a mathematically clear-cut and concluded argument in your alarmist heads while it is an open argument about paradigms in the heads of sceptics like me. You can depict sceptcs as ignorant/demonic only is you assume or insist that we are all on the same paradigmatic page.

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muso

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Re: TO THE DENIALIST/ALARMISTS
Reply #29 - Feb 7^th, 2010 at 4:55pm

I have nothing against skeptics per se, but the people who are pushing the barrow that you are so faithfully following are generally not skeptics in the true sense. They certainly do not have an equal paradigmatic basis either. A better term for them is 'pseudoskeptic'

Their arguments differ. The only commonality is the fact that they believe they should do nothing about it. They have little concern for the fact that their views are mutually exclusive. For example, let's take two commonly held views by 'pseudoskeptics:

1. The world is actually cooling.
2. Global warming is taking place, but it will be beneficial.

A true skeptic holding view 1 would be examining view 2 with a critical eye. They generally do not. That tells me that their actual views are irrelevant to them, and that those with totally disparate views only have one important thing in common - that they should continue to do nothing new.

Their so-called views are what I'd term "laughing through their teeth" truths. Nobody seriously believes them to be true, but they serve the purpose of causing an amusing kind of confusion among the naïve shallow thinking sector of the general population.

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