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assimilating is not an option (Read 14594 times)
Sprintcyclist
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assimilating is not an option
Oct 22nd, 2009 at 9:42am
 


Quote:
Police in a Phoenix suburb are looking for a father suspected of using his car to run over his daughter because she was becoming too "westernised" and was not living according to their traditional Iraqi values.

US police say 48-year-old Faleh Hassan Almaleki of Glendale allegedly ran his daughter over on Tuesday at an Arizona Department of Economic Security parking lot in Peoria.

The victim, 20-year-old Noor Faleh Almaleki of Surprise, remains in hospital with life-threatening injuries.

A second woman, 43-year-old Amal Edan Khalaf suffered non-life threatening injuries. Police say the women are roommates.

AP



http://www.smh.com.au/world/father-runs-over-daughter-for-becoming-westernised-p...

either back to iraq or onto an ice floe he goes
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Re: assimilating is not an option
Reply #1 - Oct 22nd, 2009 at 8:33pm
 
We are fortunate this sort of incident hasn't happened in Australia yet - although we have all sorts of other child abuse, torture and murder which are equal to it. It doesn't matter what religion, culture or ethnicity a person is - they can still brutalise their children.
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Re: assimilating is not an option
Reply #2 - Oct 23rd, 2009 at 12:35am
 

it is the reason that is significant
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Re: assimilating is not an option
Reply #3 - Oct 23rd, 2009 at 11:20am
 
Yes I know. An educated, middle class person - regardless of their religion - murdering a child because she wants to lead a different life to that of her parents is horrific.

They haven't got the excuse of being poor, drug addled or ignorant.
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Re: assimilating is not an option
Reply #4 - Oct 23rd, 2009 at 10:08pm
 
Wouldn't really call those things excuses either.

At least legitimate excuses.
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Re: assimilating is not an option
Reply #5 - Oct 24th, 2009 at 4:58pm
 
It still amazes me that people with different values than us, still put themselves among us and complain about it. They should remember why they moved to the west in the first place. Im sure the Islamists will have a good reason why they have to live in the west.  If Islam and sand is so good, why move.
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Re: assimilating is not an option
Reply #6 - May 4th, 2010 at 10:49pm
 
Here's an excellent article by a Danish psychologistt, explaining why Muslims cannot integrate into western society. His insights stem from years of work with Muslim prisoners in Denmark.

http://www.newenglishreview.org/custpage.cfm/frm/63122/sec_id/63122

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Re: assimilating is not an option
Reply #7 - May 5th, 2010 at 9:46am
 
pope urban 2 wrote on Oct 24th, 2009 at 4:58pm:
It still amazes me that people with different values than us, still put themselves among us and complain about it.


Very true. It makes you wonder about Mormons and various Brethren sects who go to great lengths to keep their kids in the fold.
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Re: assimilating is not an option
Reply #8 - May 5th, 2010 at 11:07am
 
Quote:
They should remember why they moved to the west in the first place.


They move here because their countries are much less pleasant to live (aka poorer) in or because there are far better opportunities for making milliions of dollars here. Does anybody really think immigrants come here because they give a crap about democracy?
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Re: assimilating is not an option
Reply #9 - May 5th, 2010 at 8:45pm
 
It makes so much sense to judge a whole group of people based on a psychologist's observations about their criminal class.
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Re: assimilating is not an option
Reply #10 - May 6th, 2010 at 10:38am
 
Annie Anthrax wrote on May 5th, 2010 at 8:45pm:
It makes so much sense to judge a whole group of people based on a psychologist's observations about their criminal class.


Exactly what I thought. I wonder how they study psychology in Denmark - the same "imported" model from the West Muslim countries use?

The Danish psychologist has forgotten the reason for the symptoms he describes: trauma. He makes the Danish mistake of believing that  people from all Muslim countries (as diverse as Africans, Arabs and Persians) are the same population, with the same culture and belief system.

From my experience of working with these groups in Australia, I have seen nothing to suggest that Muslim men are more prone to anger or retribution than, for example, born-again Christians - especially in the prison system. I don't know which countries Denmark is taking refugees from, but I don't believe the same applies to Australia - if it applies to Denmark.

I do think the Dane's arguments apply to some populations - particularly men from rural Northern Lebanon. I haven't seen the same to be true for Iraqis, but I'd say that this is because the Iraqis to emmigrate to Australia from Saddam's Iraq were largely educated and middle class.

And this is the reason for the symptoms the Dane describes: their lower socio-economic status, and their incarceration (a bit hard to overlook that one). Anglo prisoners are just as likely to display the same belief system.

Whether they identify as Danish or not is another matter entirely. I'm not sure how Danish I feel. On an off day...

I've worked with Muslims from all over the place, and I do not see the same phenomenon (with the exception of the Lebs - sorry, but often the case, Muslim or not). I actually find the opposite to be true: I've found Muslims to demonstrate more respect, more reserve, and to definately be more polite, than many Westerners. Maybe we take on a "better class" of Muslim in Australia, but this wasn't the Dane's point.

Supposedly, they ALL act like, well, prisoners. How peculiar.
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Re: assimilating is not an option
Reply #11 - May 6th, 2010 at 10:52am
 
Annie Anthrax wrote on May 5th, 2010 at 8:45pm:
It makes so much sense to judge a whole group of people based on a psychologist's observations about their criminal class.


Which of the Danish psychologist's insights into the muslim outlook do you think are incorrect?

Or do you object that he formulated his insights on the basis of discussions with Muslim criminals? Many convert or rediscover their Muslim identity in prison. ARe they not converting/rediscovering 'correct' Islam?

It seems to me that you are deploying the knee-jerk 'I'm non-judgemental' trope (itself a judgement, of course). ARe you 'non-judgemental'?


I am interested to learn how you make judgements.





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Re: assimilating is not an option
Reply #12 - May 6th, 2010 at 11:05am
 
Big Donger wrote on May 6th, 2010 at 10:38am:
Annie Anthrax wrote on May 5th, 2010 at 8:45pm:
It makes so much sense to judge a whole group of people based on a psychologist's observations about their criminal class.


Exactly what I thought. I wonder how they study psychology in Denmark - the same "imported" model from the West Muslim countries use?

The Danish psychologist has forgotten the reason for the symptoms he describes: trauma. He makes the Danish mistake of believing that  people from all Muslim countries (as diverse as Africans, Arabs and Persians) are the same population, with the same culture and belief system.

From my experience of working with these groups in Australia, I have seen nothing to suggest that Muslim men are more prone to anger or retribution than, for example, born-again Christians - especially in the prison system. I don't know which countries Denmark is taking refugees from, but I don't believe the same applies to Australia - if it applies to Denmark.

I do think the Dane's arguments apply to some populations - particularly men from rural Northern Lebanon. I haven't seen the same to be true for Iraqis, but I'd say that this is because the Iraqis to emmigrate to Australia from Saddam's Iraq were largely educated and middle class.

And this is the reason for the symptoms the Dane describes: their lower socio-economic status, and their incarceration (a bit hard to overlook that one). Anglo prisoners are just as likely to display the same belief system.

Whether they identify as Danish or not is another matter entirely. I'm not sure how Danish I feel. On an off day...

I've worked with Muslims from all over the place, and I do not see the same phenomenon (with the exception of the Lebs - sorry, but often the case, Muslim or not). I actually find the opposite to be true: I've found Muslims to demonstrate more respect, more reserve, and to definately be more polite, than many Westerners. Maybe we take on a "better class" of Muslim in Australia, but this wasn't the Dane's point.

Supposedly, they ALL act like, well, prisoners. How peculiar.


The point of the article (and his book) is to present the underlying conflict of perspective on the world. He presents the different, incompatible, outlook of Islam and then shows how that different outlook manifests itself when Muslims are in a western country, confronted by laws and rules that are contrary to Islam. Prison is, of course, the best place to study Muslims who have manifestly come into conflict with western law and values.

The point is NOT that muslims prisoners are representative of Muslims as regards obeying the laws. The point is that the incompatibility of Islam (as it applies to all Muslims) comes into a sharpre relief when seen among Muslim prisoners. Muslims in or out of prison will integrate to the degree that they leave Islam behind. That's the point.

Badly behaved western prisoners similarly bring into sharp relief the culture of the lumpen underclass.



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Re: assimilating is not an option
Reply #13 - May 6th, 2010 at 11:37am
 
I read that article Soren, and found it very straight forward common sense, particularly liked the Kierkegaard quote in it too, about needing to know where somebody "is", before you can help them, which is precisely why we have the disagreement about how we need to treat muslims, because the simple fact is that they have a different ideal to us, a different concept of who they are, and most importantly, a different concept of where they are.

Now the guy set out his recommendations, which are straight forward, and incontrovertibly based on wide professional experience, and sound logic, so here is what he says;
During my years as a social worker, and later as a psychologist for antisocial individuals, I have realized that the only, reasonable way forward is to follow this three step procedure:

1) Provide guidance and help. If this does not work, then,
2) Establish Boundaries and limitations. If this does not work, then set
3) Consequences.

What I say here might seem to be more political than psychological. However, it is my extensive experience in giving therapy to Muslims that has led me to make this statement:  We should not permit the destruction of our cities by lawless parallel societies, with groups of roaming criminal Muslims overloading of our welfare system and the growing justified fear that non-Muslims have of violence. The consequences should be so strict that it would be preferable for any anti-social Muslim to go back to a Muslim country, where they can understand, and can be understood by their own culture.


Now many will say that is intolerant, and we should just keep making exceptions for muslims, but the simple fact is that to do so is harmful to ourselves, and our culture, and it is at that point that nobody of any moral decency can honestly argue that we should promote self harm for the benefit of others.

That is what it amounts to, self harm, when we go beyond the clear guidelines set out by this forthright, but honest, assessment.

The sooner we see all government departments setting these standards, the better.

The term he used to describe muslims as running "lawless parallel societies", is not an uneducated verbalisation of some cultural prejudice, but a statement of fact, observed and documented all over europe, where muslim migration has seen the same results, when allowed to isolate themselves due to excessive political correctness, which is an oxymoron of epic proportion in these circumstances.
So let us hope that this man's findings make their way onto all the desks that matter, and we see a change of direction where western cultures are encouraged to protect their own interests, and other cultures are taught to respect that.
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OOPS!!! My Karma, ran over your Dogma!
 
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Re: assimilating is not an option
Reply #14 - May 6th, 2010 at 1:01pm
 
But are Muslims really lawless? Islam is an authoritarian, draconian religion that tradtionally has always carried out harsh penalities against wrongdoers. Many Muslim groups are extremely crime prone when they immigrate to Western countries -- perhaps even more so than when they are in their home countries. Could the leniency of Western civilization in interaction with them (coupled with an intense hatred of us) be the cause of this? Or they little different even under the totalitarian regulatory eye of Islam?
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« Last Edit: May 6th, 2010 at 1:30pm by aikmann4 »  
 
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