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Predestination, in the Koran (Read 907 times)
Yadda
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Predestination, in the Koran
Jul 26th, 2009 at 1:19am
 
Moslems declare, and believe, that humans are powerless to determine their fate.
......moslems believe, that Allah has predestined, who he will, for either paradise, or the flames of hell.


As a Christian, i do not, and can not, believe such a doctrine.

I believe that,
we
choose our destiny,
we
choose our fate,
we
choose what to believe.

I can't speak for the God of the moslems, Allah,
.....but my God, is just.

I bless my God, i praise my God,
.....for his mercy, and for his righteousness!





Part 017 - Predestination in the Quran
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L3SYaKxYKvw

Part 067 - Dilemma of Muhammadan Muslims
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Dd7adRI5q4



A full list of all, al Rassooli's "AhmadsQuran3" talks, available on YOUTUBE....
http://www.al-rassooli.com/ahmadsquran3/i+++++++++iIsaiah 1:16
Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;
17  Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.
18  Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
19  If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:
20  But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.


Psalms 145:10
All thy works shall praise thee, O LORD; and thy saints shall bless thee.
11  They shall speak of the glory of thy kingdom, and talk of thy power;
12  To make known to the sons of men his mighty acts, and the glorious majesty of his kingdom.
13  Thy kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and thy dominion endureth throughout all generations.
14  The LORD upholdeth all that fall, and raiseth up all those that be bowed down.
15  The eyes of all wait upon thee; and thou givest them their meat in due season.
16  Thou openest thine hand, and satisfiest the desire of every living thing.
17  The LORD is righteous in all his ways, and holy in all his works.
18  The LORD is nigh unto all them that call upon him, to all that call upon him in truth.
19  He will fulfil the desire of them that fear him: he also will hear their cry, and will save them.
20  The LORD preserveth all them that love him: but all the wicked will he destroy.
21  My mouth shall speak the praise of the LORD: and let all flesh bless his holy name for ever and ever.i
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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31
 
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abu_rashid
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Re: Predestination, in the Koran
Reply #1 - Jul 26th, 2009 at 2:04am
 
Quote:
Moslems declare, and believe, that humans are powerless to determine their fate.


As usual right from your first line you speak nothing but utter garbage.

Can you show me any Muslim declaring this?
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Yadda
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Re: Predestination, in the Koran
Reply #2 - Jul 26th, 2009 at 11:34am
 
abu_rashid wrote on Jul 26th, 2009 at 2:04am:
Quote:
Moslems declare, and believe, that humans are powerless to determine their fate.


As usual right from your first line you speak nothing but utter garbage.


Can you show me any Muslim declaring this?








The tactics of 'debate', which are used by moslems,
AN UNASHAMED, BARE-FACED DENIAL, OF UNDENIABLE FACTS, WHICH CONTRADICT ISLAM AND ITS DOCTRINES.


abu,

I thank you,
....for yet again, demonstrating so clearly, the tactics used by moslems, when in debate with non-moslems.

Which tactics are...
When presented with a clear [undeniable] proof, which contradicts the/a position defended by moslems, moslems will simply ignore, deny  [the undeniable!], or lie about the clear TRUTH which was presented, whenever the clear facts condemn the moslem position/doctrine.

And once again abu, you have demonstrated this moslem tactic, of denial of clear facts, which contradict your debating position.


AN EXAMPLE...

Above, you ask,
"As usual right from your first line you speak nothing but utter garbage.
Can you show me any Muslim declaring this [a moslem docrine of predestination]?"


Yes.    [.....and i already did so.]

Examine the full content of my post, again.

A moslem declaring predestination, ......how about Mohammed?

Does he qualify?

Was he a moslem?
/sarc off

Because throughout ISLAMIC scripture, Mohammed declared and confirmed, predestination, as firm ISLAMIC doctrine.

Do you want [undeniable] proofs abu?

The undeniable proofs of that fact are expounded [with references to ISLAMIC scripture], in this audio presentation [which i previously provided].....

Part 017 - Predestination in the Quran
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L3SYaKxYKvw

and,

Part 067 - Dilemma of Muhammadan Muslims
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Dd7adRI5q4
.....which also expounds on,
"[ISLAM being] an almost complete culture of denial [of undeniable facts]."









Here, is an admonishment, from a moslem source.....

"...Sometimes he says: these gods and goddesses and saints are nonentities: One God alone is the Deity. And sometimes he says: the discourses which I recite are not my own but Allah's Word. All these are strange things which he presents."The answer to these doubts and misgivings forms the theme and subject matter of this Surah.
In this connection, the disbelievers have been told: "Most certainly it is Allah's Word, which has been sent down in order to arouse a people who are sunk in heedlessness, being deprived of the bounties and blessings of Prophethood. How can you call it a fabrication when its having been sent dawn from Allah is manifest and self evident?"
Then, they have been asked, "Use your common sense and judge for yourselves which of the things presented by the Quran is strange and novel?Look at the administration of the heavens and the earth: consider your own creation and structure. Don't these things testify to the teaching which this Prophet is presenting before you in the Quran? Does the system of the universe point to Tauhid or to shirk? When you consider this whole system and your own creation, does your intellect testify that the One Who has given you your present existence, will not be able to create you once again?"   "

http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/maudud...



Yet the Koran itself admonishes all TRUE moslems, thus.....

"O ye who believe! Ask not questions about things which, if made plain to you, may cause you trouble. But if ye ask about things when the Qur'an is being revealed, they will be made plain to you, Allah will forgive those: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Forbearing.
Some people before you did ask such questions, and on that account lost their faith. "

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/005.qmt.html#005.101
v. 101, 102

But just keep denying the undeniable TRUTH about ISLAM abu.




The words of the Koran, addressing predestination...

"Why should ye be divided into two parties about the Hypocrites? Allah hath upset them for their (evil) deeds. Would ye guide those whom Allah hath thrown out of the Way? For those whom Allah hath thrown out of the Way, never shalt thou find the Way."

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/005.qmt.html#004.088
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/007.qmt.html#007.186
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/013.qmt.html#013.033


The words of the Bible, addressing predestination...

Jeremiah 18:8
If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.

Ezekiel 18:21
But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

Ezekiel 33:11
Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?


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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31
 
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abu_rashid
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Re: Predestination, in the Koran
Reply #3 - Jul 26th, 2009 at 12:12pm
 
Quote:
Moslems declare, and believe, that humans are powerless to determine their fate.
......moslems believe, that Allah has predestined, who he will, for either paradise, or the flames of hell.

As a Christian, i do not, and can not, believe such a doctrine.

I believe that, we choose our destiny, we choose our fate, we choose what to believe.


Your error is in the fact that you assume predestination/preordainment by Allah precludes us from choosing our destiny. It does not. It simply means that God already knows what we are going to choose. When we make our choice, we have no knowledge of what he's predestined for us, and therefore no contradiction occurs.

You simply deny God his attribute of omni-science. You've modified your view of God, to answer the questions proposed by atheists and other disbelievers, when in fact no contradiction existed to begin with. You've sold your religion for a miserable price.

The concept of predestination (even by this name) is mentioned in the Bible on a few occasions. You just don't read your book much, as you're too busy reading Islamophobic websites...

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Romans 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will

Ephesians 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will

1Corinthians 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, [even] the hidden [wisdom], which God ordained before the world unto our glory

2Timopthy 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began

Acts 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain

Isaiah 46:10-11 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times [the things] that are not [yet] done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken [it], I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed [it], I will also do it.

Christians have problems explaining predestination vs. free will, because they do not understand it properly. So some choose to bury their heads in the sand and just accept it, whilst others reject it and try to explain through all sorts of reasoning that it never existed in Christianity to begin with. Christians have been arguing over this for thousands of years now, and it's been instrumental in quite a few schisms over the centuries.

Muslims on the other hand can clearly recognise there is no contradiction, because man doesn't possess God's knowledge, and therefore acts purely on his own choice.

Quote:
we choose our destiny, we choose our fate


So if you are struck down by lightening tomorrow, you chose it? Interesting...

Your twisted logic on this issue presents more problems than it solves. The clear Islamic doctrine does not present any.
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abu_rashid  
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Yadda
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Re: Predestination, in the Koran
Reply #4 - Jul 26th, 2009 at 12:35pm
 
abu_rashid wrote on Jul 26th, 2009 at 12:12pm:
Quote:
Moslems declare, and believe, that humans are powerless to determine their fate.
......moslems believe, that Allah has predestined, who he will, for either paradise, or the flames of hell.

As a Christian, i do not, and can not, believe such a doctrine.

I believe that, we choose our destiny, we choose our fate, we choose what to believe.


Your error is in the fact that you assume predestination/preordainment by Allah precludes us from choosing our destiny. It does not. It simply means that God already knows what we are going to choose. When we make our choice, we have no knowledge of what he's predestined for us, and therefore no contradiction occurs.





abu,

Good!

I concede, that i agree, totally, with your statement above.

God knows us all,
intimately
.i
Quote:
Christians have problems explaining predestination vs. free will, because they do not understand it properly.
So some choose to bury their heads in the sand and just accept it, whilst others reject it and try to explain through all sorts of reasoning that it never existed in Christianity to begin with. Christians have been arguing over this for thousands of years now, and it's been instrumental in quite a few schisms over the centuries.

Muslims on the other hand can clearly recognise there is no contradiction, because man doesn't possess God's knowledge, and therefore acts purely on his own choice.



A good argument.

I don't argue with what you say here.



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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31
 
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abu_rashid
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Re: Predestination, in the Koran
Reply #5 - Jul 26th, 2009 at 2:17pm
 

I respect you Yadda for recognising that we can actually share a similar viewpoint on something. You've shown yourself to be a true follower of Christ (pbuh) in this respect.
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