Australian Politics Forum - french cowards

freediver

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french cowards
Jun 26^th, 2009 at 9:55pm

Every time the french face a genuine threat, they role onto their backs and play dead. Now they have decided to make up for this by getting tough on one of the most vulnerable groups in their society - Muslim women. They have forgotten what liberty actually means. There are many ways to protect the rights and freedoms of Muslim women in their society. Telling them what they can and cannot wear is not one of them.

Nor will this be any kind of victory against violent Jihad. Extremists will laugh in the face of this as french Muslims start to see their their alternative view of justice as not such a bad alternative.

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mozzaok

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Re: french cowards
Reply #1 - Jun 26^th, 2009 at 10:20pm

I can certainly see the validity of the point you are making FD, but as someone who dislikes ostentatious displays of faith, I come at it from the slightly different tack, of seeing it as a step which may help to liberalise a culture which seems unwilling to make any concessions to the modern world, or where they can change to better fit in it.

There is also the fact that people can be oppressed, without actually realising it, and the mere fact of not shoving your differences down everybodies throats, every time you set foot in public, may actually benefit both muslims, and the non muslim societies they choose to share with people whose standards are so very different.

At the end of the day, it is nothing more than a uniform, which is ordered on them by a patriarchal political religion, so to say it is unfair to have a political decision on what they wear is wrong, would have to include the muslim rule that forces it on them in the first place.

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freediver

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Re: french cowards
Reply #2 - Jun 26^th, 2009 at 10:38pm

Quote:

I can certainly see the validity of the point you are making FD, but as someone who dislikes ostentatious displays of faith, I come at it from the slightly different tack, of seeing it as a step which may help to liberalise a culture which seems unwilling to make any concessions to the modern world, or where they can change to better fit in it.

That doesn't make sense. How is denying women the right to wear what they choose 'liberalising'? Wouldn't liberalising involve ensuring that they had a real choice? When have people ever succeeded in freeing their fellow man by forcing them to choose what they choose?

Also, how is your dislike for their 'displays' relevant? To me it just indicates that liberalisation is not really your motive - rather it is to take away their right to do something you might not like.

And why do you see their choice of clothing as more of an outward display than clothing that displays flesh? Wouldn't it be less of a display by most reasonable measures? After all, that is the point of a burqua. It was never intended to be a display targetted at non-Muslims. The fact that you see it as a display targetted at you indicates an inability to see the issue from another person's perspective.

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There is also the fact that people can be oppressed, without actually realising it

You mean like people who think that being denied the choice of what to wear is liberalising, provided that only people who dress differently from them are forced to change?

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and the mere fact of not shoving your differences down everybodies throats

If a muslim woman tries to shove her burqua down your throat, you can get her arrested for assault. If you are merely speaking figuratively, then you are again misunderstanding what liberty means and failing to see the issue from another person's perspective. The mere act of wearing something that you interpret as a symbol you dislike does not represent any actual harm to you. Surely a person's freedom to choose is far more important than you disliking the symbolism of their choice?

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At the end of the day, it is nothing more than a uniform, which is ordered on them by a patriarchal political religion

So you cannot accept that some women may choose to wear a burqua of their own accord? Or because of some other form of patriarchal tyranny?

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so to say it is unfair to have a political decision on what they wear is wrong, would have to include the muslim rule that forces it on them in the first place.

Of course it would. That is the crucial difference. That would be protecting their right to choose what to wear. That's what liberty is. You cannot liberate a person by telling them what to choose. You can only do it by giving them a choice. It's a lot harder to do than simply order them about, and you may not like the choices they make, but that is the price of true freedom.

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Soren

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Re: french cowards
Reply #3 - Jun 26^th, 2009 at 10:39pm

freediver wrote on Jun 26^th, 2009 at 9:55pm:

Every time the french face a genuine threat, they role onto their backs and play dead. Now they have decided to make up for this by getting tough on one of the most vulnerable groups in their society - Muslim women. They have forgotten what liberty actually means. There are many ways to protect the rights and freedoms of Muslim women in their society. Telling them what they can and cannot wear is not one of them.

Nor will this be any kind of victory against violent Jihad. Extremists will laugh in the face of this as french Muslims start to see their their alternative view of justice as not such a bad alternative.

Where were you when Ataturk banned not only the niqab but the hijab? Were you posting againsst the Turkish ban, in place for decades?

Didn't think so.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 52944 At my desk.	Re: french cowards Reply #4 - Jun 26^th, 2009 at 10:40pm I don't think they had the internet back then Soren.
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Soren

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Re: french cowards
Reply #5 - Jun 26^th, 2009 at 10:56pm

freediver wrote on Jun 26^th, 2009 at 10:38pm:

[quote]

Of course it would. That is the crucial difference. That would be protecting their right to choose what to wear. That's what liberty is. You cannot liberate a person by telling them what to choose. You can only do it by giving them a choice. It's a lot harder to do than simply order them about, and you may not like the choices they make, but that is the price of true freedom.

They are free to wear whatever they wish within the customary constraints of the society they live in. Covering your face in public is not a customs in France or Europe or Australia. Polynesian women are not free to go around topless like back home, Papuan men are not allowed to go about in penis sheaths.

There are obligations on them, howwever novel that idea may seem to you or them. And if they do not have the sense to perceive them unprompted, then they need to be prompted, like all rude and osteentatous people.

I am positive you would not, on a holiday in Araby or Indonesia, let your wife ignore the dress code and customs of the place.
Why? Because you and your wife, unlike niqabis, recognise the principle of observing customs around you.

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Soren Gold Member Offline Posts: 25654 Gender:	Re: french cowards Reply #6 - Jun 26^th, 2009 at 10:59pm freediver wrote on Jun 26^th, 2009 at 10:40pm: I don't think they had the internet back then Soren. Tres amusant. Where were you on the issue of Turkish ban on the hijab and the niqab between the start of this website and yesterday, then, smarty?
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freediver

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Re: french cowards
Reply #7 - Jun 26^th, 2009 at 11:06pm

Quote:

They are free to wear whatever they wish within the customary constraints of the society they live in.

So what you are saying is that they are not actually free, but instead are bound by history? Like if Australian women still had to wear a woolen jumper from head to toe at the beach? I for one am glad that the British legacy in Australia is not their customary dress standards.

Isn't the whole point of freedom to dispose of these arbitrary historical taboos? or at least, tio no longer force them upon people through the law?

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There are obligations on them, howwever novel that idea may seem to you or them.

No there aren't. Otherwise the cowardly french would not need to consider making a new law to deny them basic freedoms.

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And if they do not have the sense to perceive them unprompted, then they need to be prompted, like all rude and osteentatous people.

So you think it is reasonable to take away a person's freedom if you interpret it as rude or ostentatious? I had no idea what an extremist you were.

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I am positive you would not, on a holiday in Araby or Indonesia, let your wife ignore the dress code and customs of the place.
Why? Because you and your wife, unlike niqabis, recognise the principle of observing customs around you.

I would gladly let someone accompanying me dress however they felt most compfortable if they were allowed to. You seem confused about the difference between obeying a law to keep out of jail and supporting a particular law.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 52944 At my desk.	Re: french cowards Reply #8 - Jun 26^th, 2009 at 11:08pm Quote: Where were you on the issue of Turkish ban on the hijab and the niqab between the start of this website and yesterday, then, smarty? I beleive I have actually commented on it a few times, though I can't remember what I actually said. You are more than welcome to track it down.
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Soren

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Re: french cowards
Reply #9 - Jun 26^th, 2009 at 11:19pm

freediver wrote on Jun 26^th, 2009 at 11:08pm:

Quote:

Where were you on the issue of Turkish ban on the hijab and the niqab between the start of this website and yesterday, then, smarty?

I beleive I have actually commented on it a few times, though I can't remember what I actually said. You are more than welcome to track it down.

I believe you actually have not. I did a search - nothing.

Never mind, mine was a rhetorical question, trying to bring into focus that you seem happy with the primitives having a dress code but not the sophisticates.

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Calanen

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Re: french cowards
Reply #10 - Jun 26^th, 2009 at 11:35pm

freediver wrote on Jun 26^th, 2009 at 9:55pm:

Every time the french face a genuine threat, they role onto their backs and play dead. Now they have decided to make up for this by getting tough on one of the most vulnerable groups in their society - Muslim women. They have forgotten what liberty actually means. There are many ways to protect the rights and freedoms of Muslim women in their society. Telling them what they can and cannot wear is not one of them.

Nor will this be any kind of victory against violent Jihad. Extremists will laugh in the face of this as french Muslims start to see their their alternative view of justice as not such a bad alternative.

I think you must have been drinking stupid juice this week. No one 'voluntarily' wears a burkha. They do it because of the ever present threat of extreme violence. If people like you are afraid of upsetting muslims and pander to them with your unique version of leftist Stockholm Syndrome, how much harder for a muslim woman to 'voluntarily' say she is not wearing the burka?

Where women are honor killed, Islam permits muslim men to beat their wives, a dress that entirely entombs them and prevents anyone from communicating with them is medieval barbarity that has no place in a modern state.

France is a secular Republic, it has the right to say, we do not want people wearing symbols of religious repression in our streets. Women wearing burkas in the street are frankly horrifying.

I'm glad Sarkozy had the balls to finally tell Islam - No.

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ISLAM is a vicious [un-reformable] political tyranny, which has always murdered its critics, and it continues that practice even today.

Yadda

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mozzaok

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Re: french cowards
Reply #11 - Jun 27^th, 2009 at 2:30am

Boiling it down to a pretty simple question, do muslim women choose the tent, or is it imposed upon them?

I FIRMLY BELIEVE IT IS IMPOSED UPON THEM.

Now the fact that this is done by continually reinforcing the idea, from early childhood onwards, that any woman who goes uncovered, is a wanton slut, explains why muslim women say they 'Choose" the veil, because to not choose it they would have to see themselves as sluts.

This then raises another relevant issue, that of how muslim men perceive non muslim women?

We all know of examples when muslim men have assaulted women, because they were perceived by them to be sluts.
This would certainly be a less prevalent attitude, if their mums and sisters were seen by them, wearing normal western dress in public, and they could accept that having things like, hair, face, and arms, uncovered, does not then make them sluts.

As I said initially, I do see the validity in the doubts you have over ruling on what people should wear, but I think in this case, they took a more long term view, and are seriously addressing an issue, which left unresolved, will just inspire more, and greater conflict, in time to come.

I think they are curtailing one small freedom, that being the freedom of a patriarchal culture to impose a repressive code of conduct upon its' women, in the hope of seeing less sexist attitudes from these same patriarchal yobbos, when interacting with all women.

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Calanen

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Re: french cowards
Reply #12 - Jun 27^th, 2009 at 2:41am

Quote:

Now the fact that this is done by continually reinforcing the idea, from early childhood onwards, that any woman who goes uncovered, is a wanton slut, explains why muslim women say they 'Choose" the veil, because to not choose it they would have to see themselves as sluts.

That, and the risk of being 'honor killed' by their relatives, or beaten to within an inch of their lives because it is a regular tenet of Islam for a man to beat his wife.

You don't have to beat or kill everyone, for everyone to be afraid.

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Quote:

ISLAM is a vicious [un-reformable] political tyranny, which has always murdered its critics, and it continues that practice even today.

Yadda

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mozzaok

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Re: french cowards
Reply #13 - Jun 27^th, 2009 at 3:33am

Calanen wrote on Jun 27^th, 2009 at 2:41am:

Quote:

Now the fact that this is done by continually reinforcing the idea, from early childhood onwards, that any woman who goes uncovered, is a wanton slut, explains why muslim women say they 'Choose" the veil, because to not choose it they would have to see themselves as sluts.

That, and the risk of being 'honor killed' by their relatives, or beaten to within an inch of their lives because it is a regular tenet of Islam for a man to beat his wife.

You don't have to beat or kill everyone, for everyone to be afraid.

I like that last line Calanen, it is very evocative.
I also think it may be overstating the case in regard to muslims in general, I doubt that they do not have their fair share of bossy women, just like we do.
I am hopelessly pussy whipped.

My dear old dad always said that you should treat a woman like a dog, and give them a beating at least once a week, to keep 'em in their place.
lol.

Actually he never said anything of the kind, mum would have taken his head off if he'd tried.

Still a bit of bravado goes a long way.

I am sure that Islam has more than it's fair share of bullies, and I believe it's women are trained, and encouraged to be submissive, but I still think that family violence would not be the norm.

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freediver

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Re: french cowards
Reply #14 - Jun 27^th, 2009 at 9:09am

Quote:

Never mind, mine was a rhetorical question, trying to bring into focus that you seem happy with the primitives having a dress code but not the sophisticates.

But I don't. I have often criticised Muslim societies for imposing this on women. I just don't think that imposing our alternative is any better.

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I think you must have been drinking stupid juice this week. No one 'voluntarily' wears a burkha.

Yes they do Calanen. There is no point oversimplifying the situation. Not all Muslim women are slaves.

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They do it because of the ever present threat of extreme violence.

But for many female Muslims that threat is simply not there. They still choose it.

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If people like you are afraid of upsetting muslims

But am I afraid of upsetting Muslims? You've been around here for a while Calanen. You should know better than that.

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Now the fact that this is done by continually reinforcing the idea, from early childhood onwards, that any woman who goes uncovered, is a wanton slut, explains why muslim women say they 'Choose" the veil

But plenty of western women choose the viel without being exposed to that kind of pressure. This also does not justify the generalisation that all women are forced into it. The fact that some middle eastern women would prefer something else does not mean that no french woman would voluntarily choose it.

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As I said initially, I do see the validity in the doubts you have over ruling on what people should wear, but I think in this case, they took a more long term view, and are seriously addressing an issue, which left unresolved, will just inspire more, and greater conflict, in time to come.

There are plenty of things about Islam that might inspire conflict. What people wear is not one of them. They are ignoring the genuine threats so they can appear tough against a non-existent threat.

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I think they are curtailing one small freedom, that being the freedom of a patriarchal culture to impose a repressive code of conduct upon its' women

It is the freedom to choose what you wear. It is hardly trivial.

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in the hope of seeing less sexist attitudes

So telling women what they can and cannot wear is now non-sexist? They are attacking the freedom of muslim women to get back at Muslim men. It is cowardly and sexist.

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