As you are the one seeking to have the law changed to allow you to have a gun, and as it is your argument that you only want one to protect yourself from violent home invasion, then you should be providing the statistical evidence that your fear is a reasonable one, and therefore your wish to have a gun is reasonable.

Now to try and skirt around that by asserting that it is a balanced view to take, even if the probability is millions to one, is just not going to cut it.

It would be more honest to just say you really like guns, and they make you feel powerful, at least that would be more understandable, and certainly more honest.

Maybe you could get a red sportscar too.

mozzaok wrote on Apr 11^th, 2009 at 5:35pm:


How often do cops use their guns, or the army for that matter? Should we take their guns too?

How many times do you think you can get beaten to death for it to be too many times? I wish it was 'one in a million' like you say.

First and last time I bother to dispel the dreamland you live in. Walk down to your Local Court if you want to know what is happening, on any day of the week, 9.30am is best and look on the corkboards for the list of offences.

R v Byrne [2005] NSWCCA 141

7 9 September 2003 – aggravated break and enter dwelling house and commit serious indictable offence  (s112(2)).  The circumstance of aggravation was the malicious infliction of actual bodily harm on the victim. The applicant forced open a window at 211 Doncaster Avenue, Kingsford and entered a house. He ransacked the premises and took two rings, bags of coins and a backpack.

8 The home owner returned as the applicant was leaving. The applicant had a pair of scissors in his hand, with which he threatened the owner. There was a brief struggle during which the applicant bit the home owner twice on the upper left arm causing bleeding and bruising. The bag containing the coins was left behind after the struggle, but the two rings were taken. They had a combined value of $2,000.

Marshall v R [2007] NSWCCA 24

12 When he was finished, he shone the torch in her face, placed his hand at the back of her neck and guided her to her daughter’s room. He again told her to sit on the bed and put her hands behind her back. He put items of property in the room, including DVDs, into a suitcase. They then went to the lounge room where the applicant disconnected a DVD player and put it into the case. He then told the victim that they were going to the bank and that he would leave her car in Miller, a nearby suburb. The applicant threatened the victim with a kitchen knife and said, “Don’t make me do what I don’t want to do”.

Banditt v The Queen [2005] HCA 80

The offence of which the appellant was convicted occurred in the early hours of 6 October 2001 at Bellingen, a New South Wales country town. The appellant broke into and entered the two storey dwelling-house where the complainant was sleeping upstairs. The complainant was alone in the house. The appellant committed a serious indictable offence there, namely sexual intercourse with the complainant without her consent and knowing that she was not consenting. The appellant was then aged 27 and the complainant 25.

Regina v S R Kessey [2001] NSWCCA 469

8 At 2.00 am on 5 April 2001, Mr Kessey broke into another home at Bomaderry. The home was in darkness, as you would expect at that hour. Both the front and back doors were locked. Mr Kessey gained entry through a kitchen window, having first removed a flyscreen. He then went from room to room in search of valuables.

9 The premises were occupied by a young woman aged 25 years. She was a naval officer. She lived alone. She did not give evidence on sentence. The matter was dealt with by the tender of statements and a summary of the facts, prepared by the police officer in charge. The respondent also did not give evidence.

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I don't own a sports car now, but would be happy to do so. I've owned a corvette before. Unlike you, I dont give a bugger what anyone thinks. I buy and do what I want.

Guns aren't a game. They are a tool. You need to practice regularly at the shooting range to be able to use them. An adult knows how to use a gun, and when to use a gun. Some of the adult population have been brought up to be big kids however. They just stay locked up when not being used and are not thought of otherwise.

You seem to have bought the line sold by feminazis, that having anything good about your life means you are less of a man or who have no penis. What a crock of crap. If you want a sports car buy one. If you want a mansion, buy one. If you want a young girlfriend, get one. Having some dowdy feminazi tell me how to live my life and say I'm not a real man or something or have a small d*** because I want a sports car or a hot blond girlfriend younger than me is not going to happen. I'll live free the way I want. You can keep pleasing the feminazis if you want to.

Australia has a higher rate of violent crime per capita than the USA.

Why, just now, there have been police sirens going off, PolAir is circling around with the searchlight going and flashing red and blue lights.

Probably won't hear what it was about in the news though.

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We don't all desire the same things. We don't all want the same things. You are probably jealous of Calanen because he can afford the sports car and girls in their early twenties might chase after him.

Good thing individuality is embraced by many people, and your insane ideas will never be widely accepted.

Stopping good guys from being able to defend themselves? Wanting to make drugs like ice legal?

People like you should be locked up, you are a danger to society.

Lucky for you though, individuality and freedom of expression are generally encouraged, no matter how strong your apparent dislike of those traits is, and thus you can continue your foolish rants.

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I'm not saying that's what I want, I'm saying that IF that's what you or I want, who gives a crap. Remember 'freedom' ? It's just an abstract concept now, not reality anymore. And if that's what I want, who are you to say that your life or you way is any better? Should I live my life, the way you want me to? Screw that.

This forum has only 5000 words per post. I just put a random sample of how often people do break into houses. when you were saying it's one in a million. I could spam up the board with millions of them. They were a random sample, not the only ones I could find.

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Spare me the lectures, you dont know what my circumstances are. It's great that you have life all figured out, maybe publish a book to give everyone the advantage of your collective wisdom and to preserve it for future generations.

http://www.lawlink.nsw.gov.au/lawlink/bocsar/ll_bocsar.nsf/pages/bocsar_onlinequ...

There are all the statistics you'll ever need. Knock yourself out. The statistics are collected in a way that mask the actual crimes though and to put a favourable spin on them. 5579 sexual assaults in a 'dwelling' in 2007. 9299 non-domestic assaults in a dwelling in 2007. 41682 break ins to dwellings.

Sounds like it happens more often than one in a million.

You guys just reinforce my beliefs that you live in a fantasy world, where you imagine yourself as western style gunslinger heroes, saving the damsel in distress, and that is just not reality, you really seem unable to separate your fantasies from reality.

With the previous examples you gave, I asked in which of them would the victim owning a gun, have stopped them being victims in the circumstances described, but you chose not to answer, because you know it would not have helped any of them.

You then give the example of martin bryant, and say this petrol station owner could have stopped him.

He saw guns, did he know Bryant was a criminal, at the time?

It seems you are advocating gun owners are so responsible that they should be allowed de facto rights to become, judge, jury, and executioner, as our wandering vigilante army.

The trouble is that it is a self defeating principle, the people who most want to carry guns, by their very nature, are the ones we should least wish to see armed.

Unstable individuals whose feelings of inadequacy, and impotence, are allayed by delusions of power, provided by firepower, is not a scenario I would ever like to see played out on our relatively peaceful streets.

If you really want to aspire to toughness, get a Bruce Lee poster, instead of an AK 47 poster, to drool over.

OK Calanen, I appreciate that you claim to do your worst work here, because it is only a forum, and in real life you would be able to think up much better arguments , but do you really want to stick with arguments like these?

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So only people who wear guns, or have undergone firearm training should comment?
Sounds reminiscent of only a murderer is allowed to have a position on murder, argument.
To assume that gun lovers are the only people capable of understanding the possible effects of widespread gun ownership on a community is as arrogant as it is feeble.

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No, you are using it as an excuse to not answer what I asked you.
As well, the survey you posted was a phone in survey where gun owners could say how often owning a gun had made them feel safe.
That is purely subjective, and the 2.5 million unrecorded, unreported, "incidents", could range from someone looking funny at them, to a possible life threatening situation, but we can make no assertions about the numbers from a survey like that.

So, still want to avoid the question I asked, or are you game to give it a go now, even if you aren't wearing your gun?

Amadd wrote on Apr 10^th, 2009 at 8:27pm:


Thumbs up to both these comments.

Easel, barrel length and the use of various chokes certainly effect the spead of shot from a shotgun. Yes you are basically correct about velocity, this is due to the bullet in a rifle providing a seal allowing the powder to burn off as well as increase the pressure for increased velocity. The wad from a shotgun provides a marginal seal but not as efficient as that in a rifle. Also with a shotgun you have comparatively small powder charges to drive greater weight projectile/s.

You are correct about licensing and registration not stopping hardcore criminals from getting firearms. In fact they usually have access to a range of weaponary that usually only military personal would get to play with. But if licensing and registration stops even a few idiots and morons from getting access, fine. If it stops the spur of the moment purchaser, again fine. I'm not sure about walking around the streets with weapons is sensible but I would be happy to review that stance if the criminal practice of doing this was to become common and wide spread.

If you have a criminal record that involves violence and you are caught with firearms illegally or in a public place than I think it should carry a mandatory 15-20 years. I think it was time we got back to punishing people that do wrong. Take the drug users who are currently violating the law and send them out to work camps etc and put them on intense psychlogical, medical and physical programs to get them clean. They should be working to fund their own healing and should be kept there until they are rehabiliated. It should be a dedicated focused program but a one off program. Second time addict crime recieves full jail time.

Mozza, sorry for the late reply, I have been meaning to get to this for 4 days now. I also hold your opinions on this board in high regard. On most issues I think we have a similar approach to a subject and system of reasoning through arguments. It also happens that our conclusions match more often than not. So I will answer as best I can.

To me the use of the word GUN NUT actually smacks of the same derogatory generalisations that racism does. In fact it always reminds me of the militant feminist slogan many years ago "Every man is a potential rapist". It is simplistically offensive.

The thread started out talking about criminals and guns, so it is hardly surprising that that contributed to the overidding flavour of the topic. I certainly gave an honest position as to my feelings and responses to a home invader. If it never happens, and I hope it does not, then no problem. I have owned guns and live in a world of crime, so without the fantasy, it is something that I have considered. It is as simple as saying I will not allow my family or myself to be a victim or statistic if it is within my power to stop it. I am also of the opinion that 3 o'clock in the morning with an intruder standing between my child's room and me is not the time to conduct a survey. But no I don't fanasize about it, I don't leave my house as an obvious target nor flash the objects of my hard work as a lure.

I have always found it perculiar that in Australia you can hire an armed body guard to protect valuables but not your person. Although I am sure there is a bit of flexibility for the really special people. But yes if you want that personal protection, get yourself a $250K wristwatch and attach yourself to it.

I like guns. I always have. I have hunted in the past and may do so again one day. I very much enjoy it as a sport and a discipline. I consider myself a pretty reasonable marksman and go to the range to shoot targets and clay pidgeons. I know a number of very good shots that have never shot at any living thing as it simply does not interest them. Fine. I've never done anything remotely illegal with my firearms and cannot foresee a need or desire to. Shooting does wonders for my concentration and I enjoy seeing the oldies and handicapped out there at the benches shooting. I also enjoy the fine qualities of beatifully crafted and machined parts that are put together with exquisite mathimatical precision. Like I enjoy well made hand tools, or fishing rods or watches.

At a political level I certainly believe that as long as the State has guns then the citizenry should also. It is an admirable part of the US Bill of Rights and I hope it is defended as long as there are governments and corporations that want it removed. I strongly believe that disarming the citizens favours the tyrants and not the citizens. I consider myself a reasonable enough student of history to say that I have no great confidence that tyranny has been abolished and think that we are entering a new era where real democracy is under profound threat from big business and corporations. I know that you are a deep admirer of the American Thomas Jefferson, so am I. And I honestly believe if he were alive today he would still hold The Right to Keep and Bear Arms as a crucial element of sovereinty belonging to the people or at least their ability to reclaim it should the need arise. Again I would point out that I am not sitting around eagerly awaiting the collapse of society. I would rather a lazy contented existence for me and my children that does not involve harming others nor being a victim.