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AS TO PROSTRATION [bowing down], BEFORE GOD.... (Read 7825 times)

Yadda

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Re: AS TO PROSTRATION [bowing down], BEFORE GOD....
Reply #15 - Mar 4^th, 2009 at 11:15am

Who are we, the servants of?

Righteousness?

Or wickedness?

Romans 6:13
Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.

Jeremiah 9:24
But let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I am the LORD which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these things I delight, saith the LORD.

+++++++++++

"And what is good, Phaedrus, and what is not good - need we ask anyone to tell us these things?"

Zen And The Art Of Motorcycle Maintenance
Robert M Pirsig

"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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tallowood

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Re: AS TO PROSTRATION [bowing down], BEFORE GOD....
Reply #16 - Mar 4^th, 2009 at 11:22am

abu_rashid wrote on Mar 4^th, 2009 at 11:06am:

I take that rant as an admission all your previous posts were misdirected and ignorant. And that you now concede that prostration, bowing and being a servant (slave if you will) of God are all part of not just the Qur'anic tradition, but the Biblical tradition also.

Thank you.

Do you mean that mohammed had stolen the tradition from the Bible like many other ideas?

Reality is a figment of imagination

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Yadda

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Re: AS TO PROSTRATION [bowing down], BEFORE GOD....
Reply #17 - Mar 4^th, 2009 at 11:42am

abu_rashid wrote on Mar 4^th, 2009 at 11:06am:

I take that rant as an admission all your previous posts were misdirected and ignorant. And that you now concede that prostration, bowing and being a servant (slave if you will) of God are all part of not just the Qur'anic tradition, but the Biblical tradition also.

Thank you.

John 8:34
Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.

Romans 8:10
And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

abu,

I am a servant of my God.

And i walk before him, as one of his children.

A child of his promise.

abu,

Muslims claim they are servants of Allah.

But they are treacherous liars.

Muslims, always have been, always will be.

Such is what ISLAM teaches, to all of its 'children'.

Through treachery, deceit, and violence, what muslims seek, is to be masters of their brothers [mankind].

Google,
muslims must have domination
http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&q=muslims+must+have+domination&btnG=Search...

Psalms 28:3
Draw me not away with the wicked, and with the workers of iniquity, which speak peace to their neighbours, but mischief is in their hearts.
4 Give them according to their deeds, and according to the wickedness of their endeavours: give them after the work of their hands; render to them their desert.

abu,

On your head be it.

++++++

Darth Vader: I've been waiting for you, Obi-Wan. We meet again, at last. The circle is now complete. When I left you, I was but the learner; now *I* am the master.
Obi-Wan: Only a master of evil, Darth.

« Last Edit: Mar 4^th, 2009 at 11:47am by Yadda »

"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Sprintcyclist

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Re: AS TO PROSTRATION [bowing down], BEFORE GOD....
Reply #18 - Mar 4^th, 2009 at 11:46am

"Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.

"This, then, is how you should pray:
" 'Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name,
your kingdom come,
your will be done
on earth as it is in heaven."

Matthew 6:9,10

"Is any one of you in trouble? He should pray. Is anyone happy? Let him sing songs of praise.
Is any one of you sick? He should call the elders of the church to pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord."

James 5:12-14

"If anyone speaks in a tongue, two—or at the most three—should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret.
If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and God.
Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said. And if a revelation comes to someone who is sitting down, the first speaker should stop.
For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged

1Corinthians 14: 27-31

No, nothing about having to lie down

Modern Classic Right Wing

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abu_rashid

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Re: AS TO PROSTRATION [bowing down], BEFORE GOD....
Reply #19 - Mar 4^th, 2009 at 12:28pm

Yadda,

Are you engaging in the Biblical practise of speaking in tongues? Cos it really seems each post you say something different that contradicts previous posts and positions.

Let us take a look at the unfolding of this thread so far.

1) You claimed that the righteous way is to walk with God as his children, and that those who are forced to bow down are the proud enemies of God.

When this position was obliterated with numerous verses from your own books, you then switched position and claimed "BY THEIR OWN WORD, devout muslims place themselves in bondage". So which is it, are we forced? Or do we place ourselves into a place of servitude to our Lord?

2) You then went on to claim that "Muhammad said we are Allah's servants [slaves]. Devout muslims are slaves, BY THEIR OWN WORD", indicating this is bad. Yet when it was countered by supernumery verses from your own books, and the realisation the EXACT same word as the Arabic one for slave/servant/worshipper appears in your Bible, you then moved onto attacking Islam for being violent (as per usual).

You spoke about spoils of war for instance.

So again let us check, if this concept is Biblical or not.

The Hebrew מלקוח (mal·ko'·akh) appears 8 times in the Bible, 7 of these times it's translated as either booty or prey (both with the same meaning). The word בז (baz) is mentioned 25 times, as prey 18, spoil 4, spoiled 2, booty 1, again in most cases the other words also mean booty/spoils in the context of the verses. The word משסה (mesh·is·sä') appears 6 times, spoil 4, booty 2. That means there's at least about 20 references to booty/spoils in the Bible. Not just that, but in some of those verses the God of the Bible, your God no? actually commanded the taking of spoiils.

Numbers 31:31-37 And Moses and Eleazar the priest did as the LORD commanded Moses.
And the booty, [being] the rest of the prey which the men of war had caught, was six hundred thousand and seventy thousand and five thousand sheep, And threescore and twelve thousand beeves, And threescore and one thousand asses, And thirty and two thousand persons in all, of women that had not known man by lying with him. And the half, [which was] the portion of them that went out to war, was in number three hundred thousand and seven and thirty thousand and five hundred sheep: And the LORD'S tribute of the sheep was six hundred and threescore and fifteen.

Now that's quite a lot of women and goodies the servants of YOUR God have captured there and distributed BY THE COMMAND OF YOUR GOD. So perhaps your God has repented of his former sins? Or perhaps you just missed these kinds of passages when reading over your Bible? After all it appears you just pick and choose that which suits you. Or perhaps the Lord didn't really command this right? In which case your book is actually full of lies against God... So which is it booty boy?

And the last bit is quite a gem, not only did your Lord command the taking of booty, he actually got his own share, lovely Grin

Let us compare that to the Qur'an.

The word booty appears 7 times, and the word spoil 3 times.

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abu_rashid

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Re: AS TO PROSTRATION [bowing down], BEFORE GOD....
Reply #20 - Mar 4^th, 2009 at 12:37pm

So on the issue of booty/spoils looks like you're left with 1 of 3 choices:

1) You can just accept (like Muslims, in which case this would become an invalid argument for you against Islam) that taking booty was a standard part and parcel of war in times past, and in fact still is today, although you've developed nifty little terms for it like "Energy security" and so forth.

2) You can claim it was just bad people in those times, in which case you'd have to admit your entire book is pretty much lies, since they actually claimed God commanded them to do it.

3) You can claim God did command that stuff, but he's since become a good respectable God now, and has repented of his former sins. Which means your entire religion is a sham, a repenting God who is therefore obviously prone to mistakes and errors.

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Yadda

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Re: AS TO PROSTRATION [bowing down], BEFORE GOD....
Reply #21 - Mar 4^th, 2009 at 12:48pm

abu_rashid wrote on Mar 4^th, 2009 at 12:28pm:

Yadda,

Are you engaging in the Biblical practise of speaking in tongues? Cos it really seems each post you say something different that contradicts previous posts and positions.

.......You spoke about spoils of war for instance.

So again let us check, if this concept is Biblical or not.

The Hebrew מלקוח (mal·ko'·akh) appears 8 times in the Bible, 7 of these times it's translated as either booty or prey (both with the same meaning). The word בז (baz) is mentioned 25 times, as prey 18, spoil 4, spoiled 2, booty 1, again in most cases the other words also mean booty/spoils in the context of the verses. The word משסה (mesh·is·sä') appears 6 times, spoil 4, booty 2. That means there's at least about 20 references to booty/spoils in the Bible. Not just that, but in some of those verses the God of the Bible, your God no? actually commanded the taking of spoiils.

Numbers 31:31-37 And Moses and Eleazar the priest did as the LORD commanded Moses.
And the booty, [being] the rest of the prey which the men of war had caught, was six hundred thousand and seventy thousand and five thousand sheep, And threescore and twelve thousand beeves, And threescore and one thousand asses, And thirty and two thousand persons in all, of women that had not known man by lying with him. And the half, [which was] the portion of them that went out to war, was in number three hundred thousand and seven and thirty thousand and five hundred sheep: And the LORD'S tribute of the sheep was six hundred and threescore and fifteen.

abu,

If you read all that chapter of Numbers, you would understand that those that did those deeds [warred against the Midianites] were 'unclean'.

Dictionary,
unclean = =
1 dirty.
2 immoral.
3 ritually impure and unfit for use or consumption. Ø (in biblical use, of a spirit) evil.

Suck it up abu, suck it up.

Yadda said,

Quote:

"......You portray such a text as a justification for muslim supremacism, and muslim world domination, and aggression.

......And the supposed intent [within Deuteronomy], which muslims point to [as a justification for their own conduct], was never the lesson being taught to mankind, in God's word [the Bible]."

"Taking 'heaven' by force???"
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1235698783/0#0

« Last Edit: Mar 4^th, 2009 at 1:52pm by Yadda »

"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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abu_rashid

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Re: AS TO PROSTRATION [bowing down], BEFORE GOD....
Reply #22 - Mar 4^th, 2009 at 2:19pm

Quote:

If you read all that chapter of Numbers, you would understand that those that did those deeds [warred against the Midianites] were 'unclean'.

Again you lie and deceive to try and worm your way out of the inevitable. There's 3 choices, be a man and choose...

Numbers 31:1-2 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Avenge the children of Israel of the Midianites: afterward shalt thou be gathered unto thy people.

Numbers 31:7 And they warred against the Midianites, as the LORD commanded Moses; and they slew all the males.

Numbers 31:17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.

(This is just sick, how you can call this the "command of your Lord" is just beyond my recognition of what humanity consists of. Nowhere would you find any such disgusting inhumanity in Islam)

I didn't see any mention of them being unclean for warring. In fact the Lord commanded that Moses (pbuh) divide the booty, half of it for the men who had warred, indicating they were being rewarded.

Numbers 31:42 And of the children of Israel's half, which Moses divided from the men that warred,

The only thing which I can see which refers to uncleanliness was the "plague" caused by the female captives?

Numbers 31:15-16 And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD.

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tallowood Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 4230	Re: AS TO PROSTRATION [bowing down], BEFORE GOD.... Reply #23 - Mar 4^th, 2009 at 9:04pm Faceless butts. No wonder allah get them kicked.
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Yadda

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Re: AS TO PROSTRATION [bowing down], BEFORE GOD....
Reply #24 - Mar 5^th, 2009 at 11:29am

abu_rashid wrote on Mar 4^th, 2009 at 2:19pm:

Quote:

If you read all that chapter of Numbers, you would understand that those that did those deeds [warred against the Midianites] were 'unclean'.

"....Nowhere would you find any such disgusting inhumanity in Islam."

Quote:

I didn't see any mention of them being unclean for warring.
In fact the Lord commanded that Moses (pbuh) divide the booty, half of it for the men who had warred, indicating they were being rewarded.

Numbers 31:42 And of the children of Israel's half, which Moses divided from the men that warred,

The only thing which I can see which refers to uncleanliness was the "plague" caused by the female captives?

Numbers 31:15-16 And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD.

Numbers 31:19
And do ye abide without the camp seven days: whosoever hath killed any person, and whosoever hath touched any slain, purify both yourselves and your captives on the third day, and on the seventh day.
20 And purify all your raiment, and all that is made of skins, and all work of goats' hair, and all things made of wood.
21 And Eleazar the priest said unto the men of war which went to the battle, This is the ordinance of the law which the LORD commanded Moses;

"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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abu_rashid

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Re: AS TO PROSTRATION [bowing down], BEFORE GOD....
Reply #25 - Mar 5^th, 2009 at 11:57am

Quote:

whosoever hath killed any person, and whosoever hath touched any slain,

Can't have been that unclean from it, cos they were allowed to keep their captives and their booty...

Sounds more like a purification because they were in contact with dead bodies, which we know Judaism considers quite unclean, rather than that they killed, they did that on God's order apparently, even the little kids and non-virgin girls.

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