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Rethinking Observed Warming (Read 10299 times)
muso
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Re: Rethinking Observed Warming
Reply #45 - Dec 17th, 2008 at 7:40am
 
Grendel wrote on Dec 17th, 2008 at 6:29am:
Mozza, don't know what you've been reading but I've never denied Global Warming or Climate change Mozz...  kinda drops a bomb on all the rest since your premise is based on a lie.

As for Muso---  off-hand dismissal and shooting the messenger is hardly a debate.


Grendel, your entire case is built up with Appeal to Authority. This scientist said this, and this plumber said that.

Generally there is no substance to their claims either. It boils down to "AGW is nonsense"  and I should know because I'm a petroleum geologist/ astronomer/marine biologist/cross dresser (add any other irrelevant occupation and delete where applicable) . Well you haven't given me the cross dresser yet, but the claims are all incredibly superficial.

So when the crux of your 'argument' is appeal to authority, all that is required is to demonstrate that your so called authorities are not real authorities.  Generally when it comes to those few low lifes who are qualified, it is quite easy to demostrate their lack of personal integrity and credibility.
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freediver
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Re: Rethinking Observed Warming
Reply #46 - Dec 17th, 2008 at 9:16am
 
Grendel for someone who doesn't deny global warming you spend an aweful lot of time trying to dig up and post anything at all that denies global warming.

Then again, you do also try very hard to avoid taking an actual position. That might require you to defend it. If you aren't going to think about an issue and put forward an argument, what's the point of debating it? Or pretending to debate it, as the case may be? Are you saying that you know all those articles are BS but you post them anyway?
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pjb05
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Re: Rethinking Observed Warming
Reply #47 - Dec 17th, 2008 at 5:14pm
 
What has Muso got against geologists (besides Bob Carter being one)? They would have a better handle on the climate changes over the history of the Earth than other scientists would they not?

PS: What is a 'climate scientist' ? Are they really all across and competent in the diverse range of fields that this subject encompasses?
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Re: Rethinking Observed Warming
Reply #48 - Dec 19th, 2008 at 7:33pm
 
http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/stories/s2451051.htm

Rudd has failed to see through the vested interests that promote anthropogenic global warming (AGW), the theory that human emissions of carbon cause global warming. Though masquerading as "science based", the promoters of AGW have a medieval outlook and are in fact anti-science. Meanwhile carbon is innocent, and the political class is plunging ahead with making us poorer because they do not understand what science really is or what the real science is.

The Renaissance began when the absolute authority of the church and ancient texts was overthrown. Science then evolved as our most reliable method for acquiring knowledge, free of superstition and political authority. Suppose you wanted to know whether big cannonballs or small cannonballs fell faster. In medieval times you argued theoretically with what could be gleaned from the Bible, the works of Aristotle, or maybe a Papal announcement. In the Renaissance you ignored the authorities and simply dropped cannon balls from a tower and observed what happened - this was science, where empirical evidence trumps theory.

From 1975 to 2001 the global temperature trended up. How do you empirically determine the cause of this global warming? It turns out we can learn a lot simply by observing where the warming occurred: each possible cause of global warming heats the atmosphere differently, heating some parts before others. The pattern of warming is the cause's "signature".

The signature of an increased greenhouse effect consists of two features: a hotspot about 10 km up in the atmosphere over the tropics, and a combination of broad stratospheric cooling and broad tropospheric warming. The signature of ozone depletion consists just of the second feature. These signatures are theoretically derived by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC), and are integral to our understanding of how the atmosphere works. [1]

We have been observing temperatures in the atmosphere for decades using radiosondes - weather balloons with thermometers that radio back the temperature as the balloon ascends through the atmosphere. The radiosonde measurements for 1979-1999 show broad stratospheric cooling and broad tropospheric warming, but they show no tropical hotspot. Not even a small one. [2]

Empirically, we therefore know that an increased greenhouse effect was not a significant cause of the recent global warming. (Either that or the signatures from the IPCC are wrong, so its climate models and predictions are rubbish anyway.)

Human carbon emissions were occurring at the time but the greenhouse effect did not increase. Therefore human carbon emissions did not increase the greenhouse effect, and did not cause global warming. So AGW is wrong, and carbon is innocent. Suspect exonerated - wrong signature.

Alarmist scientists (supporters of AGW) objected that the radiosonde thermometers were not accurate and maybe the hotspot was there but went undetected. But there were hundreds of radiosondes, so statistically this is unlikely. They have also suggested we ignore the radiosonde thermometers, and use the radiosonde wind measurements instead. When combined with a theory about wind shear they estimated the temperatures on their computers - and say that the results show that we cannot rule out the presence of a hotspot. But thermometers are designed to measure temperature, so it's a bit of a stretch to claim that wind gauges are accidentally better at it. Serious alarmist scientists do not claim that the hotspot was found, only that we might have missed it. The obvious conclusion is that the hotspot was too weak to be easily detected. We cannot collect any more data from the past warming, and there is no sign of the hotspot in the data that was collected - so the occasional claims that appear on the Internet that the hotspot has been found are simply wrong. [3]

So can we tell from the observed warming pattern what did cause the global warming? Unfortunately we have little idea of the signatures of some of the suspects, such as cosmic rays or the Pacific Decadal Oscillation, so we cannot say except to note that ozone depletion was one of the causes.

Is there any observational evidence in favor of AGW? As of 2003, none at all.

The only supporting evidence for AGW was the old ice core data. The old ice core data, gathered from 1985, showed that in the past half million years, through several global warmings and coolings, the earth's temperature and atmospheric carbon levels rose and fell in lockstep. AGW was coming into vogue in the 1980s, so it was widely assumed that it was the carbon changes causing the temperature changes.

pt1
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Re: Rethinking Observed Warming
Reply #49 - Dec 19th, 2008 at 7:34pm
 
By the late 1990s ice core techniques had improved. In the old ice cores the data points were a few thousand years apart, but in the new ice core data they were only a few hundred years apart. In the early 1990s, New Scientist magazine anticipated that the higher-resolution data would seal the case for AGW.

But the opposite occurred. By 2003 it had been established to everyone's satisfaction that temperature changes preceded corresponding carbon changes by an average of 800 years: so temperature changes caused carbon changes - a warmer ocean supports more carbon in the atmosphere, after delays due to mixing. [4] So the ice core data no longer supported AGW. The alarmists failed to effectively notify the public.

After several prominent public claims by skeptics in 2008 that there is no evidence left for AGW, alarmist scientists offered only two points.

First, laboratory tests prove that carbon dioxide is a greenhouse gas. But that observation tells us nothing about how much the global temperature changes if extra carbon enters the real, complicated atmosphere. Every emitted carbon atom raises the global temperature, but the missing hotspot shows that the effect is negligible.

Second, computer models. Computer models are just huge concatenations of calculations that, individually, could have been performed on a handheld calculator. They are theory, not evidence.

Governments have spent over $50 billion on climate research since 1990, and we have not found any actual evidence for AGW. [5]

So if there is no evidence to support AGW, and the missing hotspot shows that AGW is wrong, why does most of the world still believe in AGW?

Part of the answer is that science changed direction after a large constituency of vested interests had invested in AGW. The old ice core data provided support from 1985, the IPCC was established by the UN in 1988 to look into human changes to climate, and the Kyoto Protocol was negotiated in 1997 to limit carbon emissions. By 1999 the western political class were doing something, the western media were rallying behind "saving the planet", and scientists were being paid by governments to research the effects of human-caused global warming.

But then the evidence took science off in a different direction: the new ice core data in 2003, the missing hotspot in 2007, and the global temperature has stopped trending up since 2001 [6]. Governments, the media, and many scientists did not notice.

The remainder of the answer for the current belief in AGW is darker and more political. An offbeat theory in the 1970s, AGW was adopted by a group of about 45 atmospheric modelers and physicists. That group dominated climate science journals, peer reviewed each others papers, and hindered competing ideas by underhand methods [7]. AGW gained political support from proponents of nuclear power, and vice-president Gore appointed AGW supporters to science positions in the USA.

AGW grabbed control of climate funding in key western countries. Lack of diversity in science funding has been a major problem since government took over funding science in WWII. Science is like a courtroom - protagonists put forward their best cases, and out of the argument some truth emerges. But if only one side is funded and heard, then truth tends not to emerge. This happened in climate science, which is almost completely government funded and has been dominated by AGW for two decades. Skeptics are mainly scientists who are retired or who have moved on to other areas - their funding no longer depends on allegiance to AGW. The alarmists are full time, well funded, and hog the megaphone.

AGW was always promoted as being supported by nearly all scientists (though polls and history do not support this). Counting numbers of supporters and creating a bandwagon effect by announcing you are in the majority is a political tactic.

AGW always advanced principally by political means; as a scientific theory it was always weak, and now the evidence contradicts it. It's like a return to medieval times, where authority rules and evidence is ignored. Notice how the proponents of AGW don't want to talk about evidence of the causes? Anything but evidence of cause - attack people's motives, someone else "has the evidence", theoretical models, evidence that global warming is occurring, how important they are, what credentials they have, how worthy they are, the dog ate my evidence, "the science is settled", polar bears, anything. Talking about the evidence of the cause of global warming does not advance their cause. Politics says AGW is correct; science says it is wrong.

Science demands evidence. Evidence trumps theory, no matter what the political authority of those promoting the theory, even if they dress up in lab coats and have job titles that say "scientist". The hotspot is missing and there is no evidence for AGW. The alarmists cannot ignore this and continue to play political games forever. They are entitled to argue the case for AGW, but they should also acknowledge the evidence and inform the political class that AGW appears to be wrong - even if it means risking their status and their jobs (and yes, we scientists are also people who have kids and mortgages).

pt2
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Re: Rethinking Observed Warming
Reply #50 - Dec 19th, 2008 at 7:36pm
 
There are two central lies in the political promotion of AGW.

The first appears in Gore's movie. He gave the old ice core data as the sole reason for believing AGW (the rest of the movie presents evidence that global warming occurred, a separate issue). He said that increases in carbon caused increases in temperature in the past warming events. But Gore made his movie in 2005, two years after the new ice core data had established the opposite! Gore's weasel words when he introduced that segment show he knew what he was about to say was false. Who would have believed his pitch if he added "and each temperature rise occurred 800 years before the corresponding rise in carbon that caused it"? [8]

The second lie is the hockey stick graph, which presented the last thousand years of global temperature as the flat handle of a hockey stick and the next hundred as the sharply rising blade [9]. The hockey stick graph was heavily promoted by the IPCC in 2001, and the IPCC even adopted it as its logo before it got discredited. It is significant because most non-scientist AGW supporters seem to believe some version of the hockey stick. When the IPCC "scientists" who produced the graph were asked to show their data for past temperatures, they refused (true scientists share data). But one of those scientists was a British academic and subject to the British Freedom of Information Act, and after two years of stonewalling all was revealed. It showed they had grossly skewed the data (even omitting inconvenient data to a folder labeled "Censored"), and that the computer program used to process the data had the hockey stick shape built into it - you could feed it stock market data instead of tree ring data and you would still get a hockey stick! In reality it was warmer in the Middle Ages than today, and there was a mini ice age around 1700 from which we have since been warming ever since. [10] Finally, the sharply rising blade of the hockey stick is contradicted so far by actual temperatures, which from 2001 to 2008 have been flat - something all of the climate models got wrong.

Among non-scientists, AGW appeals strongly to two groups. Those who support big government love the idea of carbon regulations - if you control carbon emissions then you control most human activity. And those who like to feel morally superior to the bulk of their fellow citizens by virtue of a belief (the "warm inner glow" and moral vanity of the politically correct) are firmly attached to AGW. These groups are politically adept, are planning to spend your money and tell you how to eat, travel and how to live, and they are strenuously avoiding the evidence.

The media has avoided presenting information that undermines AGW, until recently. Instead they promoted alarmism, and discredited skeptics as being in the pay of big oil - while giving a free pass to Gore, who made a movie based on an obvious lie then made millions selling carbon offsets. The media is very keen to present evidence that global warming is occurring, but have you noticed how quiet it is on evidence that carbon emissions caused it?

In 2007 almost no one in the west knew that the hotspot was missing, that there was no evidence for AGW, that temperatures had been flat for six years, that the hockey stick was a fraud, or that Al Gore lied when he gave the old ice core data as a reason for blaming carbon. But due to the Internet the public is gradually finding out anyway, which risks further discrediting many media outlets. Why buy a newspaper if it's not going to tell you the actual news?

And as the public become generally aware, what politician is going to risk being so ideologically stupid as to unnecessarily wreck the economy by slashing carbon emissions? Hmmm, Kevin Rudd?

pt....
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muso
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Re: Rethinking Observed Warming
Reply #51 - Dec 19th, 2008 at 8:56pm
 
It's our old mate Dave the wannabe climate scientist spouting more of the same tired nonsense. I kind of relax when it's just Dave, because he has nothing new to say, but just recycled arguments and old news that have been refuted years ago. You'd think he would have plenty of time to keep up with the latest papers, but of course he doesn't have to, because Dave's audience is the public, and the more ignorant they are, the better.

First of all, the missing tropical hotspots? - a storm in a teacup. The fact is that hotspots don't remain as hotspots for very long in the tropics, and thermal energy is rapidly converted to kinetic energy through the action of the water cycle. In fact that was the conclusion of the researchers who investigated this back in 2007. Problem solved. (Unfortunately not for Dave - It just gave him an excuse to write some more fiction)

Al Gore ?  Roll Eyes - Déjà Vu - give me a break  Roll Eyes Hasn't that strawman already been reduced to ashes many times before?

The tired old hockey stick argument again? Not only was Mann's data totally shown to be totally valid, M&M were proven to have interfered with the real data (somebody else's data) far beyond the call of duty for the professional climate liar.

Cosmic Rays? Get the tinfoil hats out again folks - Remember those British researchers that showed that it wasn't Cosmic Rays? Maybe we should tell Dave. Dave was probably working. After all, some people outside the field of Environmental science will still hire him. He used to be quite a competent mathematician. Let's give him the benefit of the doubt. He was either working or he was drunk and missed that paper too. If I was a professional liar, I'd have to drink a lot too. I just wouldn't be able to face myself in the mirror every day otherwise.

It's so sad to see somebody's life going to waste like this. He must know that he's writing drivel.

If anybody who is reading this needs a top notch computer geek, see Dave. Dave is a ginuwine Rocket Scientist and look just give him a JOB!!!!

You can see his resumé here:

http://www.sciencespeak.com/DavidEvans.doc

Will somebody please give this man honest employment?
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« Last Edit: Dec 19th, 2008 at 9:05pm by muso »  

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Grendel
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Re: Rethinking Observed Warming
Reply #52 - Dec 19th, 2008 at 9:00pm
 
I didn't write it.
or did you mean Dave and why apart from it being your opinion of every dissenting opinion would he write drivel?

I do see however, lots of one-sided ideology and little else in what you write and in your continuous ad hom etc, etc, etc...
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muso
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Re: Rethinking Observed Warming
Reply #53 - Dec 19th, 2008 at 9:07pm
 
Grendel wrote on Dec 19th, 2008 at 9:00pm:
I didn't write it.
or did you mean Dave and why apart from it being your opinion of every dissenting opinion would he write drivel?

I do see however, lots of one-sided ideology and little else in what you write and in your continuous ad hom etc, etc, etc...



His name is Dr David Evans R/S. None of that Dave stuff from you Grendel. We need to get this man a job urgently!

Why does he write drivel? - because he can't get a proper job.
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Re: Rethinking Observed Warming
Reply #54 - Dec 19th, 2008 at 9:26pm
 
Grendel, to save me the trouble, can you point out the bit where he says 'frost this morning, therefor no global warming'?
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muso
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Re: Rethinking Observed Warming
Reply #55 - Dec 19th, 2008 at 9:32pm
 
freediver wrote on Dec 19th, 2008 at 9:26pm:
Grendel, to save me the trouble, can you point out the bit where he says 'frost this morning, therefor no global warming'?



That would be this bit:

Finally, the sharply rising blade of the hockey stick is contradicted so far by actual temperatures, which from 2001 to 2008 have been flat - something all of the climate models got wrong.

The most hilarious part to me are these words of wisdom:

"First, laboratory tests prove that carbon dioxide is a greenhouse gas. But that observation tells us nothing about how much the global temperature changes if extra carbon enters the real, complicated atmosphere."

Dr Dave Evans, Rocket Scientist December 2008

Deep. We are not Worthy.
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Re: Rethinking Observed Warming
Reply #56 - Dec 19th, 2008 at 9:59pm
 
Thanks Muso. These guys are surprisingly predictable.

Quote:
which from 2001 to 2008 have been flat


Well at least he was honest enough to not try to say there is a downward trend. Now if he could just be a bit more honest, he could admit that it is merely 'close to flat', aka increasing. Or he could go one step further and acknowledge that there is more than 8 years of relevant data and that it is misleading to pretend the rest doesn't exist.
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Re: Rethinking Observed Warming
Reply #57 - Dec 19th, 2008 at 10:37pm
 
pjb05 wrote on Dec 17th, 2008 at 5:14pm:
What has Muso got against geologists (besides Bob Carter being one)? They would have a better handle on the climate changes over the history of the Earth than other scientists would they not?


PJB,

I'll quickly answer this one, because my next post will probably be in 2009. I have nothing against geologists (I actually minored in Geology), and the geologists who lie about AGW professionally are a very tiny minority of the whole.

For example, this is the position taken by the Geological Society of America:

The Geological Society of America (GSA) supports the scientific conclusions that Earth’s climate is changing; the climate changes are due in part to human activities; and the probable consequences of the climate changes will be significant and blind to geopolitical boundaries. Furthermore, the potential implications of global climate change and the time scale over which such changes will likely occur require active, effective, long-term planning. ... GSA strongly encourages that the following efforts be undertaken internationally: (1) adequately research climate change at all time scales, (2) develop thoughtful, science-based policy appropriate for the multifaceted issues of global climate change, (3) organize global planning to recognize, prepare for, and adapt to the causes and consequences of global climate change, and (4) organize and develop comprehensive, long-term strategies for sustainable energy, particularly focused on minimizing impacts on global climate."- Position Statement, Global Climate Change, 2006


And the Geological Society of London:

"Global climate change is increasingly recognised as the key threat to the continued development – and even survival - of humanity. ... We find that the evidence for human-induced climate change is now persuasive, and the need for direct action compelling." -

US Geological Survey (USGS)

The most authoritative report on this issue is Climate Change 1995: IPCC Second Assessment Report from the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC), which is part of the United Nations Environmental Programme. The IPCC has a large amount of information on their web site dealing with this topic

Geoscience Australia (2001)

Dr John Bradshaw from AGSO - Geoscience Australia will present the geological solution to the global issue of carbon dioxide (CO2) emissions at the Geoscience Australia open day this Sunday at 1pm.

Dr Bradshaw says there has been a 15 per cent increase in the volume of CO2 in the atmosphere since 1960, which is widely attributed to emissions from man made sources. The increase is believed to produce a greenhouse effect, which is contributing to global warming.

"On a per capita basis Australia is among the highest emitters of CO2 in the world," said Dr Bradshaw.
http://www.ga.gov.au/media/releases/20011003_7.jsp
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Re: Rethinking Observed Warming
Reply #58 - Dec 19th, 2008 at 10:49pm
 
It is sad to see the misinformation about the hockey stick graph still being touted by denialists, even after exhaustive analysis, which did contain some minor criticisms, , mainly of the methodology, which the denialists tried to beat up into something it was not, and some even went so far as to 'tamper' with his data, in an effort to discredit his findings.
But the reviewers of his work maintained that for such ground breaking work, the actual results were surprisingly good, and his initial findings were affirmed.

Of course if you only go to denialists sites you will not know any of this, and still believe their lies, that the hockey stick graph was discredited, when actually it turned out that the ones who fudged the data in their attempts to discredit it, were the ones whose scientific reputations have been discredited.

If you take a step back, and check sites other than the huge proliferation of denialist sites, you will notice the clear agenda of promoting lies and misinformation by the denialist camp, which should tell you something about what they are trying to peddle, it is nothing but snake oil.
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Re: Rethinking Observed Warming
Reply #59 - Dec 20th, 2008 at 12:40pm
 
The HS graph has been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt to be erroneous.
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