Australian Politics Forum - freedom and women's rights

Gaybriel

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Re: freedom and women's rights
Reply #15 - Dec 17^th, 2008 at 5:34pm

Jim Profit wrote on Dec 17^th, 2008 at 12:55pm:

Also I think rape is a load of bollocks anyway used to oppress men.

rape is used to oppress men? are you kidding?

and do you know what a woman has to go through in order to prove rape? proving rape under islam is a hell of a lot less traumatising for the victim than it is under non-islamic law.

false allegations of rape are the absolute minority- and your carte blanche statements degrade the trauma of genuine rape victims

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It's a cheap tactic to criminalize someone without any proof or reason. A woman yells rape and suddenly we're all suppose to stop what we're doing and stroke her hair and kiss her feet. We know men get raped, but we don't care. Because men don't have a vagina. (Matriarchy) When men get raped, it's funny. Or atleast ridiculous. But when I say rape is "a minor inconvience" for women, I get attacked and would probably get beaten to death if I said it irl. That's the mob rule of matriarchy we live in. Where we don't question the almighty woman..

rape against men is just as vile and contemptable a thing as rape against women is. I understand that society has messed up views about rape when it comes to men- but don't blame women for it because I think you'd find they'd be a hell of a lot more sympathetic about rape than men would on the whole.

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If anyone gets messed up cause of rape, it's because they are not sufficnetly strong enough mentally to cope with it. Yes, it's still a crime hurting the weak, but they're always going to be weak. So we shouldn't base the severity of something on what a minority of people are too thin-skinned to handle. Maybe they need to toughen up.

being raped isn't like having someone call you fat. there's a reason why it's considered to be such a heinous crime. you have no idea how terrifying it is to have someone overpower you, to realise to the full extent your physical weakness in comparison to men- and to know that that person can do whatever the hell they want to you and you can't do a damn thing about it. not to mention the fact that they enjoy your pain- that it gets them off.

you seem to think rape is just someone kinda not wanting to have sex and then they do and oh well they probably asked for it anyway- typical filth

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Or atleast stop putting themselves in situations where that could happen.

like what? walking to your car? going for a run? people get raped going to their cars at my uni- what are they sposed to do? not go to uni?

how about when someone breaks into your house and rapes you? don't stay at home?

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Because that's another thing. If I go into a ghetto full of black people, and yell "The N Word" (edit: I gets tagged as "black person"), and get shot. You would not feel sorry for me.

But a woman goes to a party, full of drunken, horny men. Gets wasted, spreads her legs. But I'm suppose to feel bad for her.

so you equate a women going out in public with someone deliberately antagonising people? really?

so women can't drink? can't go to parties? is it the men who are the victims here cause they were tempted into it by what- her presence?

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No. You're stupid. Bad stuff happens to stupid people. As it should be.

right- women are stupid for going out in public- got it.

and no bad stuff happens to good people, bad people, smart people, stupid people, unlucky people etc etc

what about kids who are molested? is it their fault for being pre-pubescent?

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Gaybriel

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Re: freedom and women's rights
Reply #16 - Dec 17^th, 2008 at 5:36pm

freediver wrote on Dec 17^th, 2008 at 5:32pm:

Jim you need to talk to Abu about how to say the same thing in a more politically correct manner. For example, rather than saying that women are to blame for being raped, Muslims say that forcing them to cover up protects them from rape and all sorts of other predatory behaviour that is forced upon them when the evil west forces them to wear bikinis to work. This makes it much harder for Gaybriel to take offence, because rather than blaming feeble minded women for getting themselves raped, you are protecting feeble minded women from getting themselves raped.

if any muslim were to suggest that rape is the victim's fault I would be just as outraged thankyou very much.

please do not presume to know what is on my mind. ask me a question if you like- but your assumption is insulting.

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freediver

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Re: freedom and women's rights
Reply #17 - Dec 17^th, 2008 at 6:04pm

Quote:

proving rape under islam is a hell of a lot less traumatising for the victim than it is under non-islamic law.

Can you justify this claim?

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if any muslim were to suggest that rape is the victim's fault I would be just as outraged thankyou very much

Right. That is why they say that denying them the right to walk around outside without permission from whatever man owns them and without a tent on is protecting them from rape, rather than saying that if they do get raped it is their fault. That way, if they do the wrong thing and get themselves raped, you can blame them for whatever it was they did that got them raped, like going outside without permission, not wearing the tent, being in the company of other men who aren't related, etc. This avoids the politically incorrect suggestion that women are to blame for getting themselves raped. Instead, they are merely to blame for the situation in which the rape occurred. You can even punish them for getting themselves in the situation in which the rape occured. This totally avoids having to punish them for getting themselves raped. So you can punish rape victims and claim the moral high ground at the same time. It's quite convenient don't you think?

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Jim Profit

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Re: freedom and women's rights
Reply #18 - Dec 17^th, 2008 at 6:14pm

Quote:

have you ever been raped? I'm guessing no. you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about then

Have you?

If you havn't then you're in no more authority then I am. All you're doing is saying "my opinion is more valid because I'm going to cry about it".

No. Back your opinion up with facts or speculation. Just because it looks like the "nice" position does not make it the right position.

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rape isn't just physical act- it's about humiliating your victim, making them completely helpless and violating their will.

Yeah, and people do it everyday. Infact you did it to me twice already. And all I am is annoyed. Not going to cry about it and take it to court.

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your attitude is absolute filth.

Why? Because I have a different opinion?

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I suggest you also look at how you phrase things in here- try to be a little more respectful of others in your tone and in your wording. I will not tolerate such utter garbage.

And I don't like being threatend. I don't know they do things in Australia, but here in America we don't respond with threats by running away with our tail between our legs.

I have been respectful. I think you're wrong, and I havn't said anything to suggest that there's something wrong with you, your mother, or anything like that.

And what do I get in return? A lecture about "how I should act". You don't want respect, you want fear. And you're not going to get that from me.

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But I still believe there's something left for you and me.

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Gaybriel

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Re: freedom and women's rights
Reply #19 - Dec 17^th, 2008 at 6:18pm

freediver wrote on Dec 17^th, 2008 at 6:04pm:

Quote:

proving rape under islam is a hell of a lot less traumatising for the victim than it is under non-islamic law.

Can you justify this claim?

we've discussed the requirements under sharia law before. and before I lay them out- I am talking about sharia law as it is written - not practised.

the law states that if a woman accusses a man of rape then the burden of proof is upon the man to disprove the rape. whereas here the burden of proof is upon the state who represents the victim. by that mere system I would assume the process is less traumatic- but as I have never been subjected to each system I couldn't definitely say- it is just my assumption.

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if any muslim were to suggest that rape is the victim's fault I would be just as outraged thankyou very much

Right. That is why they say that denying them the right to walk around outside without permission from whatever man owns them and without a tent on is protecting them from rape, rather than saying that if they do get raped it is their fault. That way, if they do the wrong thing and get themselves raped, you can blame them for whatever it was they did that got them raped, like going outside without permission, not wearing the tent, being in the company of other men who aren't related, etc. This avoids the politically incorrect suggestion that women are to blame for getting themselves raped. Instead, they are merely to blame for the situation in which the rape occurred. You can even punish them for getting themselves in the situation in which the rape occured. This totally avoids having to punish them for getting themselves raped. So you can punish rape victims and claim the moral high ground at the same time. It's quite convenient don't you think? [/quote]

I believe the only 'blame' put upon anyone in islam when rape occurrs is the rapist.

in terms of covering up, not going out alone etc- the thinking is that these things are done to lower the risk of what is a real threat.

if someone were to ask me if wearing a short skirt is riskier than wearing a long one- I'd say yeah

if someone were to ask me if going out and drinking is riskier than staying home with your family- well obviously yeah

does this mean I think a woman is to blame if she goes out drinking in a short skirt? uh- no obviously not. because the blame lies with the party who has the inability to respect the will of their fellow human and who takes pleasure in hurting, humiliating and violating others.

recognising the reality of the world is quite different to endorsing it

having said that- do I agree? personally I think that human beings should strive to control whatever animal urges they may have. I think that the laws of islam had a very good purpose for the time in which they were formed. do I see them as relevant now? to a degree- but not entirely. I have always adopted the opinion that I cannot control the actions of others and I refuse to live in a prison because of the vile behaviour of a few.

obviously I try to be smart and not put myself into risky situations- but essentially it is impossible to avoid such situations- especially when young and naive, you tend to learn from the mistakes you make.

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Gaybriel

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Re: freedom and women's rights
Reply #20 - Dec 17^th, 2008 at 6:26pm

Jim Profit wrote on Dec 17^th, 2008 at 6:14pm:

Quote:

have you ever been raped? I'm guessing no. you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about then

Have you?

If you havn't then you're in no more authority then I am. All you're doing is saying "my opinion is more valid because I'm going to cry about it".

no comment

and my opinion is more valid regardless of my personal experience because it actually concurs with the experience of rape victims en masse and reflects what has been seen as a heinous and disgusting crime for freakin eons

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No. Back your opinion up with facts or speculation. Just because it looks like the "nice" position does not make it the right position.

what facts exactly? how would you like me to factualise what is essentially an emotive arguments? if I provided statistics about the trauma of rape you'd just say those women are weak- so really empirical facts like data are irrelevant here.

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Yeah, and people do it everyday. Infact you did it to me twice already. And all I am is annoyed. Not going to cry about it and take it to court.

have I? by doing what?

by disagreeing with you or telling you to tone it down?

so some random person on the internet takes issue with you and you get irritated- yet if you were raped you'd feel the same way? interesting

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Why? Because I have a different opinion?

no because you degrade others by completely dismissing them as weak or stupid or 'asking for it'

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And I don't like being threatend. I don't know they do things in Australia, but here in America we don't respond with threats by running away with our tail between our legs.

I have been respectful. I think you're wrong, and I havn't said anything to suggest that there's something wrong with you, your mother, or anything like that.

And what do I get in return? A lecture about "how I should act". You don't want respect, you want fear. And you're not going to get that from me.

well see- I am a moderator here and there are certain rules about how to act- so me telling you you're out of line is actually quite appropriate.

you see I would have loved to have gone off and sworn and insulted you etc- but I think that's the worst way to conduct a disagreement. but I also think that the way in which you expressed yourself was disrespectful to rape victims, to women in general etc etc- and I'm sure there are other ways you could have gotten your point across

I don't want you to fear me, I don't even see why you should.

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freediver

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Re: freedom and women's rights
Reply #21 - Dec 17^th, 2008 at 6:32pm

Quote:

the law states that if a woman accusses a man of rape then the burden of proof is upon the man to disprove the rape.

I think we didn't get very far. We merely established that the four witness thing didn't apply to rape. if a man 'solemnly swears' that he didn't rape the woman, does that count as proof? Otherwise a woman could get any man killed just by falsely accusing him of rape. Sure, that is far less burden on the woman, but it pushes it too far the other way. Suppose for example a married woman cheated with an unmarried man and they got busted. If she was honest, she would be stoned to death and he would get whipped. But she could get out of it by accusing him of rape.

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I believe the only 'blame' put upon anyone in islam when rape occurrs is the rapist.

That's because the crime of getting yourself raped (not wearing the tent, going out without permission, being in the wrong company) is a separate crime.

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in terms of covering up, not going out alone etc- the thinking is that these things are done to lower the risk of what is a real threat.

This conveniently blames the victim, without blaming them for the actual rape. It puts an onus on women not to get raped. They are expected under the law to severely restrict their personal freedom in order to avoid being raped.

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if someone were to ask me if wearing a short skirt is riskier than wearing a long one- I'd say yeah

What if you did it anyway, got yourself raped, then they wanted to punish you for getting yourself in that situation? yeah?

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recognising the reality of the world is quite different to endorsing it

Is punishing a woman for getting herself in the position where she got raped (but not for the rape itself) endorsing it?

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do I see them as relevant now? to a degree- but not entirely

Can you elaborate?

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Gaybriel

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Re: freedom and women's rights
Reply #22 - Dec 17^th, 2008 at 7:06pm

freediver wrote on Dec 17^th, 2008 at 6:32pm:

Quote:

the law states that if a woman accusses a man of rape then the burden of proof is upon the man to disprove the rape.

I think we didn't get very far. We merely established that the four witness thing didn't apply to rape. if a man 'solemnly swears' that he didn't rape the woman, does that count as proof? Otherwise a woman could get any man killed just by falsely accusing him of rape. Sure, that is far less burden on the woman, but it pushes it too far the other way. Suppose for example a married woman cheated with an unmarried man and they got busted. If she was honest, she would be stoned to death and he would get whipped. But she could get out of it by accusing him of rape.

well that could happen under western law too- except she's avoiding divorce as opposed to punishment. and note you need four witnesses to prove adultery.

the four witness thing doesn't apply to the victim of rape- it does apply to the accused.

anyway- I'm not talking about the veracity of sharia law in this instance- merely that it puts less stress on the victim

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That's because the crime of getting yourself raped (not wearing the tent, going out without permission, being in the wrong company) is a separate crime.

getting yourself raped? nice phrasing

if the crime is not being raped then the other things are what are being punished, not the rape. if going out of the house etc is ilegal and a woman does it and doesn't get raped- she'd still be punished for the infraction.

but note it is not illegal to do those things in all muslim countries.

if you ask me though- if someone is raped and also violates a law (like the segregation law) and she is not punished because the rape is seen as 'punishment enough' then that is almost like saying the rape is justifiable as punishment.

if the punishment for the original infraction is put off for humanitarian reasons- that is acceptable in my opinion

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This conveniently blames the victim, without blaming them for the actual rape. It puts an onus on women not to get raped. They are expected under the law to severely restrict their personal freedom in order to avoid being raped.

there's always an onus on women not to get raped. we're taught about rape prevention in high school, it's drummed into us- that doesn't mean our schools would blame us if we got raped.

if you disagree with the method- fine, but I don't think you can draw a link between the method and the idea that a woman/man is to be blamed for being raped

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What if you did it anyway, got yourself raped, then they wanted to punish you for getting yourself in that situation? yeah?

again 'got yourself raped'- who is putting the blame on the victim here?

if it were against the law for me to go out and get drunk and I did it and got raped and they then said- you're going to be punished for going out and getting drunk- I wouldn't think I was being punished for being raped but I would think it was seriously inhumane.

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Is punishing a woman for getting herself in the position where she got raped (but not for the rape itself) endorsing it?

only if her original action is against the law. say a woman breaks into a house and robs it and then is raped by the house's owner or by some random person as she loads all the stuff up into the van. should she be punished for the robbery?

if you disagree with the law fine- but no I don't think it endorses it.

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Can you elaborate?

well my mind isn't entirely made up on this one so anything I say will be extraordinarly vague

all I will say is that I have seen and heard things that make me see the wisdom in certain rulings in islam. on the other hand, I think the focus should be upon self-control etc- rather than just eradicating any possibility of temptation (which is in itself impossible). but I do recognise reality- and that no matter how unfair I think it is- my chances of being raped if I abided by islamic law is a hell of a lot less then if I live my life as I do now.

but- do I think that this is helpful for society at large? do I think that by avoiding temptation we make ourselves weaker against it when we do encounter it? possibly. like I said- still not 100%

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Calanen

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Re: freedom and women's rights
Reply #23 - Dec 17^th, 2008 at 7:15pm

Quote:

I suggest you also look at how you phrase things in here- try to be a little more respectful of others in your tone and in your wording. I will not tolerate such utter garbage.

I took pity on him, I just dont think he is very bright. A bit like that Cliff Claven character in Cheers. Works in the Post Office and thinks he knows everything, but doesnt realise how dumb he sounds when he talks.

What he said, was really, stoopid. And Im hardly a bleeding heart liberal.

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ISLAM is a vicious [un-reformable] political tyranny, which has always murdered its critics, and it continues that practice even today.

Yadda

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freediver

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Re: freedom and women's rights
Reply #24 - Dec 17^th, 2008 at 7:32pm

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well that could happen under western law too

What are you saying could happen? The man getting off merely by swearing he's innocent. Or the woman getting a man killed merely by accusing him unjustly?

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the four witness thing doesn't apply to the victim of rape- it does apply to the accused

That doesn't make any sense.

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anyway- I'm not talking about the veracity of sharia law in this instance- merely that it puts less stress on the victim

Unless she gets charged with putting herself in that position.

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if the crime is not being raped then the other things are what are being punished, not the rape

Hence my point about it being very convenient. You get to punish the rape victim, but not for being raped, just for the nominally separate crime of putting herself in that position. It achieves the same thing in practice, but you get to pretend you are taking the moral high ground.

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if going out of the house etc is ilegal and a woman does it and doesn't get raped- she'd still be punished for the infraction

Even better for blaming women for their mistreatment.

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but note it is not illegal to do those things in all muslim countries

Muhammed beat his child bride for leaving the house without permission. Are you saying that Islam does not require women to wear a tent etc?

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if you ask me though- if someone is raped and also violates a law (like the segregation law) and she is not punished because the rape is seen as 'punishment enough' then that is almost like saying the rape is justifiable as punishment.

Keep going down that path...

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if the punishment for the original infraction is put off for humanitarian reasons- that is acceptable in my opinion

humanitarian reasons- like because she got raped?

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there's always an onus on women not to get raped

But not a legal one. You can't punish a woman for being in the wrong place, or wearing the wrong clothes. To do so inevitably diminishes the cultural responsibility of a man for committing rape. The law says both people did something wrong, and now look at the outcome. It is impossible to have such a law nad still maintain na view that it is not a woman's fault if she gets raped, or that she didn;t deserve it.

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if you disagree with the method- fine, but I don't think you can draw a link between the method and the idea that a woman/man is to be blamed for being raped

The method I disagree with is claiming that denying women fundamental human rights is justified to protect them from rape, ie that it is doing them a favour.

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again 'got yourself raped'- who is putting the blame on the victim here?

Islam is.

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if it were against the law for me to go out and get drunk and I did it and got raped and they then said- you're going to be punished for going out and getting drunk- I wouldn't think I was being punished for being raped but I would think it was seriously inhumane

Right. The supposed protection from rape actually makes the situation worse.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Gaybriel Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 1191	Re: freedom and women's rights Reply #25 - Dec 17^th, 2008 at 7:41pm I'll answer all of this later but for now I'll just ask you to stop referring to female islamic dress as a tent you know the correct words hijab, niqab, abaya, burqa,- or you can just say 'cover up' but ease off with the pot shots please
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freediver

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Re: freedom and women's rights
Reply #26 - Dec 18^th, 2008 at 10:09pm

Actually no I don't know the correct words. I keep forgetting which is which. I wouldn't want to use a very specific word and refer to the wrong thing. It would just confuse everyone. Plus Abu would just come in and say, well they only use that particular brand of tent in Saudi and it is technically the wrong kind, then completely miss the point I was trying to make. So I keep it vague, because what I'm saying applies regardless of the brand of tent.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Calanen Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 2241	Re: freedom and women's rights Reply #27 - Dec 18^th, 2008 at 10:13pm Quote: So I keep it vague, because what I'm saying applies regardless of the brand of tent. I liked the little British girl who called them "Letter box ladies'.
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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49836 At my desk.	Re: freedom and women's rights Reply #28 - Dec 18^th, 2008 at 10:21pm Yes, that works too. I also do it because I like to consider my target audience, who is going to know even less than I do about what all those words mean.
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Gaybriel Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 1191	Re: freedom and women's rights Reply #29 - Dec 18^th, 2008 at 10:48pm you could just say muslim dress, or clothing or 'having to cover up' it's more respectful and doesn't take much more effort Calanen- of course you did
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