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Jizyah - tax on non-Muslims (Read 16449 times)
freediver
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Re: Jizyah - tax on non-Muslims
Reply #45 - Jan 5th, 2009 at 9:56pm
 
Abu, the thing about democracy is that they could impliment sharia law through the back door quite easily. Even if the grand conspiracy about puppet masters is true, why would 'the west' care if they stone each other to death on the weekend? They'd still get their oil. The reason that middle eastern democracies don't have sharia law is because the people reject it. It can only be achieved by imposing it on people against their will. That's why Islam forbids democracy, because it allows people to advance beyond a system that seemed like a good idea 1400 years ago.
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Re: Jizyah - tax on non-Muslims
Reply #46 - Jan 5th, 2009 at 10:58pm
 
You know how the winners of war write the history books?

How do we know we are getting the full story from Muslim dominated areas of history?
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Re: Jizyah - tax on non-Muslims
Reply #47 - Jan 5th, 2009 at 11:46pm
 
Quote:
a system that seemed like a good idea 1400 years ago.


I think, even 1400 years ago, it would depend a lot on which side of the stone, or sword, you were on.

Sharia is such an unfair set of laws, that any civilised society would always reject it, if they had the choice, and that is why it is a system that is only ever imposed upon people, not chosen by them.
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Re: Jizyah - tax on non-Muslims
Reply #48 - Jan 6th, 2009 at 5:00am
 
Calanen,

Quote:
Except for the Taliban, now wasnt *real* Islam a barrel of laughs under those guys? You couldnt cheer at soccer matches, the only thing you could say was 'Allah Akbar' anyone caught cheering was hung from the goal posts at half time.


I am no supporter of the Talibaan, but this doesn't sound truthful. At least use facts to criticise them.
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Re: Jizyah - tax on non-Muslims
Reply #49 - Jan 6th, 2009 at 5:10am
 
freediver,

Quote:
Abu, the thing about democracy is that they could impliment sharia law through the back door quite easily.


In theory that's supposedly the case, but we both know that in reality it isn't the case. Algeria  and Palestine (Hamas) both prove that if Islam does ever attain power through democratic means, then the guns of the 'watchdogs' of democracy will be ever ready to remove it before it even gets to implement Islam. So please spare us the propaganda.

Quote:
why would 'the west' care if they stone each other to death on the weekend? They'd still get their oil


Shows how little you know about shari'ah. To you shari'ah is just all hand cutting and adulterer executing. But the fact is that under shari'ah, oil and other natural resources are community property, if Islam were implemented in somewhere like the Arabian peninsula, then America would probably not get a drop... and they well know that. That's why it's IMPERATIVE that they keep the Saudi gang of pirates in power.

Quote:
The reason that middle eastern democracies don't have sharia law is because the people reject it.


Actually Palestine is considered to have been the fairest ever elections in the  Middle east, and Islam was chosen there. In Egypt, Brotherhood independants have been winning seats like crazy. Turkey has been choosing Islamist-leaning parties (who are routinely removed from power by the 'democratic secular' military) for years, Algeria we know what happened there... the rest are either monarchies or 'inherited republics'. The people aren't rejecting Islam, and this is actually the dilemma the West is facing, and which fuels it's hatred and war on Islam.

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Re: Jizyah - tax on non-Muslims
Reply #50 - Jan 6th, 2009 at 5:17am
 
abu_rashid wrote on Jan 6th, 2009 at 5:00am:
I am no supporter of the Talibaan, but this doesn't sound truthful. At least use facts to criticise them.


Kabul Men Fling Off Trousers for Death-Free Soccer

Back to the Victim's Page



November 15, 2001 11:02 AM ET
By Mark Chisholm

KABUL (Reuters) - A group of Kabul men flung off their baggy trousers and tunics on Thursday for a game of post-Taliban soccer, free from the threat of interruption by the fundamentalist militia carrying out a public execution.

"In the past, soccer matches were interrupted and executions would be carried out for everyone to see," said Ahmed Marof in the middle of a practice soccer match in the same Kabul football ground that the Taliban used for shooting criminals.

"What could we do?"

Bullet casings could still be seen on the pitch.

The Taliban, who tried to turn Afghanistan into their vision of a pure Muslim utopia, retreated from Kabul before dawn on Tuesday -- freeing residents from their draconian rules.

Women appeared on the streets without the head-to-toe burqa veils the Taliban forced them to wear, music was heard for the first time since the militia took the city in 1996, children flew kites, men shaved off the beards the Taliban made compulsory -- and played soccer.

The Taliban allowed soccer on special occasions, but with bizarre restrictions.

Players had to wear long-sleeved shirts and long trousers -- preventing the showing of skin, which the Taliban denounced as un-Islamic.

Applause was banned -- spectators were told the appropriate way to show enthusiasm was to shout "Allahu Akbar!" (God is Greatest).

Last year, a match in the Taliban's stronghold Kandahar against players from the Pakistani border town Chaman ended in disarray when members of the feared religious police raced on to the pitch to arrest the Pakistani players for wearing shorts.

Five of the Pakistani players managed to flee to the safety of their consulate in Kandahar while the rest had their heads shaved before being released.

Pakistani diplomats lodged a protest.

The Taliban's interpretation of Sharia, or Islamic, law imposed the death penalty for several offences. Executions were often carried out in public, sometimes by the family of the victim. With few other sources of entertainment, Afghans often flocked to stadiums to watch.

But Thursday's players were left to play interrupted, and dared to wear shorts.

"Before, the Taliban used to make us play in long garments, and today you see us in short sleeves and shorts," said Ahmed Zaia. "It's wonderful."

http://www.iht.com/articles/reuters/2008/09/13/asia/OUKWD-UK-AFGHAN-STADIUM.php

KABUL: The grass has grown in Kabul's soccer stadium where the Taliban used to stage public executions, but few Afghans dare visit in the evenings, believing that the souls of the victims still roam the sprawling grounds.

"Too much blood has flown here," says Mohammad Nasim as he mowed the lush green grass in the stadium under a warm afternoon sun, a little oasis ringed by brown hills away from the bustle of the street.

The goalposts, where the black-turbaned Taliban used to force convicts to kneel before executing them or from which they hung the severed arms or legs of thieves for all to see, have been given a fresh coat of white paint.

New portraits of Afghanistan's leaders, including late King Zahir Shah, President Hamid Karzai, anti-Taliban hero Ahmad Shah Masood and the country's latest star, Olympic taekwondo bronze medallist Rohallah Nikpai, hang from the empty stands.

The Afghanistan Olympic Committee has set up its office in the stadium's red building and there are pictures of Nikpai, the country's first Olympic medal winner, being feted.

But try as they might, few Afghans can put behind them the brutality of the Taliban years when men, and sometimes cowering women in their pale blue, all-enveloping burqas, were brought into the stadium to be either stoned or shot dead at close range.

Others had limbs amputated for crimes ranging from robbery to adultery and murder.

The stands would be full of people, including children, either coming of their own volition or brought in to witness how the Taliban enforced its version of justice.

"Now nobody comes here in the evening, even we don't go inside," says Nabeel Qari, a young guard at the entrance to the stadium. "Everyone believes the place is haunted, that the souls of the dead people are not at rest even now."

BODIES FLUNG INTO VANS

The Taliban also executed convicts in a huge open ground across the street from the stadium, where they would bring them in the back of open-topped vans, shoot them in the head at close range and fling the bodies back in the vans.

Nasim said he saw two of his relatives shot dead and another hanged in the soccer stadium for possessing arms that a Taliban court concluded in a summary trial were intended to be used against them.

He remembers people streaming into the stadium to watch the executions. It was usually over within minutes, with the men lined up near the soccer field's penalty spot and shot, blood oozing out as they slumped to the ground.
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Quote:
ISLAM is a vicious [un-reformable] political tyranny, which has always murdered its critics, and it continues that practice even today.
Yadda
 
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Re: Jizyah - tax on non-Muslims
Reply #51 - Jan 6th, 2009 at 5:18am
 
A Killing Field Reverts to Life as a Stadium

Afghanistan: Soccer games at site of Taliban executions are a step toward normality, but they also point up how far behind the world the nation has fallen.

By CAROL J. WILLIAMS | Times Staff Writer
December 13, 2001

KABUL, Afghanistan - The last time Mohammed Gheyas went to watch soccer at the national stadium, the players were unable to do their pregame warmups. Instead, a Datsun pickup truck with a bound man in its cargo bed lumbered toward a basketball hoop at the eastern end of the field.

As the fans waited, Taliban militiamen fixed a noose over the goal's highest crossbar, draped it around the man's neck and signaled the driver to gun the engine. The truck lurched forward, leaving the condemned enemy of the Islamic state swinging and struggling until death finally stilled him.

Gheyas was too frightened to join in the hangmen's satisfied shouts of "Allahu akbar!" (God is great).

But none of the roughly 10 executions he witnessed scared him away from the sports venue here in the Afghan capital that the Taliban made its killing field.

"There was no cinema, no television, nothing to do," the 20-year-old mechanic's apprentice recalled of such public displays of fanatic justice. "We came out of curiosity and boredom."

On Wednesday, Gheyas was back, along with several hundred other men and boys, each shelling out 2,000 afghanis--less than six cents yet still a handsome sum here--to watch two local teams compete in a game celebrating the liberation of Kabul one month ago.

The favorites won handily, with Maiwand beating the less-experienced Solha 3-0.

The spectators, swathed in scarves and blankets against the marrow-chilling cold, seemed less concerned about the outcome than the newfound opportunity for entertainment.

"The Taliban made our lives a misery," said 54-year-old Mohammed Qasem, a clerk at the idle Ministry of Education. "Once I came to see a match and instead we saw a man dragged to the center of the field, where the Taliban cut his throat and bled him like a goat in front of everyone. The match never happened."

This week's tournament, pitting eight Kabul teams in a round robin, will conclude after end-of-Ramadan celebrations that are expected to begin this weekend.

The games nudged this society toward normality.

But the ill-shod and unpracticed squads of young men weakened by the all-day fasts observed during the holy month of Ramadan also illustrate how far behind the outside world this country has fallen.

The entrance to the crumbling, bullet-riddled stadium, suddenly alive with cheering fans, is still emblazoned with the five interlocking rings of the Olympic movement.

Afghanistan has not entered global sports competitions since 1996, and there is too little time for it to put together a delegation for the Winter Games that will begin in two months in Salt Lake City.

Still, sportsmen and even a few sportswomen have begun rebuilding their federations, facilities and clubs out of conviction that sport is part of the mortar that will cement this country into the international mosaic.

Abdul Saboor Azizi, the national women's basketball coach, has just returned to the post of chairman of the Afghan Olympic Committee. He said the country will be ready for the 2004 Games.

Azizi quit his post in 1996 after the first public execution at the stadium. He said the venue is meant for elevating the human spirit, not extinguishing it.

He continued to clandestinely coach the women--who haven't played a game in public in 14 years--on rare occasions when he could find a court at a school remote enough to escape the Taliban's notice. Coaches of other teams did the same, he said, allowing 22 sports federations to survive, if only in name and spirit.

Mohammed Wasey Naderi, 18, trained as a gymnast from early childhood but has never been in international competition because of Afghanistan's isolation during Taliban rule, which began when he was 12.

"It's hard to find a place to practice. All the sports halls are in ruins," said Naderi, who nonetheless hopes to try out for the 2004 national team.

Azizi, who made his living driving a taxi during the Taliban era, hopes the new interim government that will take office Dec. 22 will embrace sports to help unify the nation and reintegrate the country with the outside world.

But after 23 years of occupation, civil wars and power struggles, many young Afghans are better acquainted with weapons than with sports. Several members of the new leadership represent parties with policies almost as repressive as the Taliban, Azizi warned, and the future of sports here remains uncertain.

The Olympics chief was on hand before Wednesday's soccer game to accept a gift of 10 basketballs from British sports clubs.

The same sponsors also outfitted the soccer tournament teams with new uniforms sent on a British Broadcasting Corp. charter flight.

The lopsided Maiwand-Solha game elicited smiles and hearty cheers from the concentric concrete rings that serve as bleachers. But several young spectators, apparently indoctrinated with the Taliban's anti-Western sentiments, hurled rocks at a Times photographer taking pictures from the sidelines.

http://www.mcall.com/news/politics/la-121301stadium,0,7089377.story
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Quote:
ISLAM is a vicious [un-reformable] political tyranny, which has always murdered its critics, and it continues that practice even today.
Yadda
 
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Re: Jizyah - tax on non-Muslims
Reply #52 - Jan 6th, 2009 at 10:01am
 
abu_rashid wrote on Jan 6th, 2009 at 5:10am:
freediver,

Quote:
Abu, the thing about democracy is that they could impliment sharia law through the back door quite easily.


In theory that's supposedly the case, but we both know that in reality it isn't the case. Algeria  and Palestine (Hamas) both prove that if Islam does ever attain power through democratic means, then the guns of the 'watchdogs' of democracy will be ever ready to remove it before it even gets to implement Islam. So please spare us the propaganda.






They are only doing the right thing, those democratic watchdogs. The time for 7th century desert barbarism is gone. You can't have Nokias and sharia. If you want to live according to sharia, isolate yourselves completely. Be like the Amish. There's plenty of open spaces between Algeria and Pakistan.
But you want your nokias "you want your MTV", as it were, and sharia.  But you can't have both.

Hamas pushes for Sharia punishments
Dec. 24, 2008
JPost.com Staff , THE JERUSALEM POST
The Hamas parliament in the Gaza Strip voted in favor of a law allowing courts to mete out sentences in the spirit of Islam, the London-based Arab daily Al Hayat reported Wednesday.

According to the bill, approved in its second reading and awaiting a third reading before the approval of Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas, as the Palestinian constitution demands, courts will be able to condemn offenders to a plethora of violent punitive measures in line with Sharia Law.

Such punishments include whipping, severing hands, crucifixion and hanging. The bill reserves death sentences to people who negotiate with a foreign government "against Palestinian interests" and engage in any activity that can "hurt Palestinian morale."

According to the report, any Palestinian caught drinking or selling wine would suffer 40 lashes at the whipping post if the bill passes. Thieves caught red-handed would lose their right hand.

The Jerusalem Post could not verify the veracity of the Al Hayat report.




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Re: Jizyah - tax on non-Muslims
Reply #53 - Jan 6th, 2009 at 10:16am
 
Quote:
if Islam were implemented in somewhere like the Arabian peninsula, then America would probably not get a drop...


So Islam forbids trade? That seems pretty strange for a system of government that prospered by extortion of the overland trade route. Rather, what would happen is the Arabs would get rich from it. Maybe they would share it a certain way, but that's not anyone else's concern.
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Re: Jizyah - tax on non-Muslims
Reply #54 - Jan 6th, 2009 at 9:22pm
 
Calanen,

Quote:
You couldnt cheer at soccer matches, the only thing you could say was 'Allah Akbar' anyone caught cheering was hung from the goal posts at half time...
.
As the fans waited, Taliban militiamen fixed a noose over the goal's highest crossbar, draped it around the man's neck and signaled the driver to gun the engine. The truck lurched forward, leaving the condemned enemy of the Islamic state swinging and struggling until death finally stilled him.


I'm looking, but I still can't find where it says he was hanged for cheering instead of saying Allahu akbar...

soren,

Quote:
You can't have Nokias and sharia.


Nothing in shari'ah which says you can't have Finnish mobile communications manufacturers... Unless you know something I don't? Or is this another of your ignorant claims that Islam mandates the use of camels for transport and pigeons for communications?

freediver,

Quote:
So Islam forbids trade?


Everytime i engage in discussion with you, I just come away completely dumbfounded at how you managed to draw an even wilder conclusion from something I've said, than you did the time before. Where on earth did I say Islam forbids trade?

If you can't stick with what I've said, then there's not much point responding. I'm not in the habit of responding to your spin. So stick with the dialogue, please.

Quote:
That seems pretty strange for a system of government that prospered by extortion of the overland trade route.


I assume you're talking about the 'Silk road', that's your summation of what the Silk road was? Muslims extorted non-Muslims? I'd suggest you go and do some research and find out who prospered from the trans eurasian trade routes, it included many civilisations over many time periods, stretching way back before Islam. Just another xenophobic swipe at Muslims. You've really deteriorated lately freediver.
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Re: Jizyah - tax on non-Muslims
Reply #55 - Jan 6th, 2009 at 9:36pm
 
Quote:
I'm looking, but I still can't find where it says he was hanged for cheering instead of saying Allahu akbar...


I think I read the article in 2000, I'm sorry I dont keep my articles indexed and filed for you. But this article I did find confirmed two things:

1) They could only cheer by saying Allah Akbar and were not to otherwise cheer;

2) They killed people at the soccer matches for the entertainment of the crowd.

Its not too much of a stretch to say that people who violated tha anti-cheering rule, received more than a parking ticket for doing so.
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ISLAM is a vicious [un-reformable] political tyranny, which has always murdered its critics, and it continues that practice even today.
Yadda
 
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Re: Jizyah - tax on non-Muslims
Reply #56 - Jan 6th, 2009 at 10:03pm
 
Quote:
Everytime i engage in discussion with you, I just come away completely dumbfounded at how you managed to draw an even wilder conclusion from something I've said, than you did the time before. Where on earth did I say Islam forbids trade?


You said that under sharia law the US would end up with no oil. That sounds a bit silly to me.

Quote:
I'd suggest you go and do some research and find out who prospered from the trans eurasian trade routes, it included many civilisations over many time periods, stretching way back before Islam.


So what?

Quote:
Just another xenophobic swipe at Muslims.


No it wasn't. You just conceded the point.

Quote:
They killed people at the soccer matches for the entertainment of the crowd.


I think that sharia law requires members of the public to participate in public stonings. They use small stones to draw out the specatcle.
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Re: Jizyah - tax on non-Muslims
Reply #57 - Jan 6th, 2009 at 10:27pm
 
abu_rashid wrote on Jan 6th, 2009 at 9:22pm:
soren,

Quote:
You can't have Nokias and sharia.


Nothing in shari'ah which says you can't have Finnish mobile communications manufacturers... Unless you know something I don't? Or is this another of your ignorant claims that Islam mandates the use of camels for transport and pigeons for communications?



Nokia and sharia - the contrast between modernity and barbarity, as you full well understand.



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Re: Jizyah - tax on non-Muslims
Reply #58 - Jan 7th, 2009 at 11:47pm
 
Quote:
That's why it's IMPERATIVE that they keep the Saudi gang of pirates in power.


It is imperative that they keep the Saudi gang of pirates in power, but not I think because of sharia. I'm not sure what your point is here. That a fully compliant sharia regime would not trade with infidels? Could you tell me what your thinking or rationale is here?

The schizophrenic approach of the US to Islam is embodied in the relations with the Saudi govt. The Saudi govt has kept the US in power, and the US has kept the Saudis in power. It has been a very profitable venture for them.

Between Kuwait, Saudi Arabia and Iraq - the US has friendly control over a 1/3 of the world's oil.  And enforces the fact that you can only buy oil from OPEC with USDs. And they get USDs for free - they print them.

In return, the US keeps the Saudis in power. Works well - provided that the USD doesnt completely tank. Which it could in the current economic crisis. What has saved them so far is that other currencies have tanked worse.

If OPEC ever denominated in Euros, it would be the end of the USA. And the end of the Saudi Royal family.
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« Last Edit: Jan 8th, 2009 at 12:10am by Calanen »  

Quote:
ISLAM is a vicious [un-reformable] political tyranny, which has always murdered its critics, and it continues that practice even today.
Yadda
 
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Re: Jizyah - tax on non-Muslims
Reply #59 - Jan 8th, 2009 at 3:05am
 
Quote:
That a fully compliant sharia regime would not trade with infidels? Could you tell me what your thinking or rationale is here?


I stated it quite clearly already. Under the Shari'ah system, natural resources like oil are public property, they cannot be owned by a family and squandered like they are today for the benefit of the ruling family and their mates in the USA. How on earth that amounts to "A shari'ah regime would not trade with infidels" is beyond me. Although you and freediver both seem to have drawn the same bizarre conclusion. Like minds I guess.
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