Australian Politics Forum - Indonesian muslim cleric married 12-year-old.

freediver

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Re: Indonesian muslim cleric married 12-year-old.
Reply #15 - Oct 27^th, 2008 at 10:19am

You've been told a number of times now that their is no clergy in Islam.....or hasn't it yet sunk into your thick head (just practising my right to freedom of speech remember).

Les are you claiming he is not a respected member of the local Muslim community? Are you claiming that this isn't a reflection of the attitudes of that Muslim community to pedophilia?

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locutius

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Re: Indonesian muslim cleric married 12-year-old.
Reply #16 - Oct 27^th, 2008 at 11:23am

Gaybriel wrote on Oct 27^th, 2008 at 9:59am:

locutius wrote on Oct 27^th, 2008 at 9:47am:

A 12 year olds have different maturity in different parts of the world. A ditzy 12 year old from the North Shore of Sydney, who suffers from every psychological disorder that her teenage fashion magazine tells her to. Has just started High School and has only ever had to worry about being daddy's pretty little princess is not even in the same ball park of maturity as a 12 year old that comes from a society where she has had to help with the family survival, maintaining house, caring for younger brothers and sisters since she was 4 years old.

Societies, from which we are not so far removed historically, and certainly not psychologically accepted that a girl becomes a woman at first menstration, and they did not have the luxury of waiting when people were considered middle age at 20-25.

Marriage at 12 offends our sensitivities, and IS too young for our padded out existence in the West. We simply offer more opportunities for peoples lives and are able to extend the habitat and culture of the child far longer than at any other time in history. An extension that is not always positive for the overall maturity of society I think.

Maybe my interest in anthropology allows me to be less shocked at the idea than some. I did assume that Indonesia was more modern than this.

I know what you're saying but in this case I don't see that as applicable especially as the law itself is against it.

I was not defending the cleric Wink

, I don't know the exact situation. But I did (last sentence) make the assumption that Indonesia had progressed further than this. Certainly the point you raised about it being against the State's laws should have been enough, from my understanding, for a follower of Islam to have not pursued this.

I was probably more than anything trying to put marriagable age into perspective.

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Gaybriel

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Re: Indonesian muslim cleric married 12-year-old.
Reply #17 - Oct 27^th, 2008 at 11:29am

locutius wrote on Oct 27^th, 2008 at 11:23am:

Gaybriel wrote on Oct 27^th, 2008 at 9:59am:

locutius wrote on Oct 27^th, 2008 at 9:47am:

A 12 year olds have different maturity in different parts of the world. A ditzy 12 year old from the North Shore of Sydney, who suffers from every psychological disorder that her teenage fashion magazine tells her to. Has just started High School and has only ever had to worry about being daddy's pretty little princess is not even in the same ball park of maturity as a 12 year old that comes from a society where she has had to help with the family survival, maintaining house, caring for younger brothers and sisters since she was 4 years old.

Societies, from which we are not so far removed historically, and certainly not psychologically accepted that a girl becomes a woman at first menstration, and they did not have the luxury of waiting when people were considered middle age at 20-25.

Marriage at 12 offends our sensitivities, and IS too young for our padded out existence in the West. We simply offer more opportunities for peoples lives and are able to extend the habitat and culture of the child far longer than at any other time in history. An extension that is not always positive for the overall maturity of society I think.

Maybe my interest in anthropology allows me to be less shocked at the idea than some. I did assume that Indonesia was more modern than this.

I know what you're saying but in this case I don't see that as applicable especially as the law itself is against it.

I was not defending the cleric Wink

, I don't know the exact situation. But I did (last sentence) make the assumption that Indonesia had progressed further than this. Certainly the point you raised about it being against the State's laws should have been enough, from my understanding, for a follower of Islam to have not pursued this.

I was probably more than anything trying to put marriagable age into perspective.

sorry- I know you weren't in support of it! I was just continuing on about what my opinion was in light of what you'd said

but as to saying that you thought indonesia was more sophisticated than this- well according to its laws it is! if it weren't this would be legal- it's this bloke who hasn't progressed Tongue

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abu_rashid Gold Member Offline Aussie Muslim Posts: 8353	Re: Indonesian muslim cleric married 12-year-old. Reply #18 - Oct 27^th, 2008 at 11:50pm locutius, excellent post.
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merou

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Re: Indonesian muslim cleric married 12-year-old.
Reply #19 - Oct 28^th, 2008 at 12:09am

So to all you who are trying to justify his marriage to the 12 year old, and maybe even 12 is at the fuzzy line, but what do you have to say about his intended marriage to seven and nine year old? Make no mistake there, seven years old is a child in any language, race, religion, culture or country.

he is a paedophile!!!!!!

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« Last Edit: Oct 28^th, 2008 at 4:58pm by merou »

Shoot the scum and let God sort em out.

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abu_rashid

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Re: Indonesian muslim cleric married 12-year-old.
Reply #20 - Oct 28^th, 2008 at 7:37am

Quote:

but what do you have to say about his intended marriage to seven and nine year old? Make no mistake there, seven years old is a child in any language, race, religion, culture or country.

Intended to... in the future... when they reach the age of maturity, one would assume.

Or, he may intend to make the contact now, but not consummate the marriage, until they reached the age of maturity. I think this part was just added for effect, because of the fact that 12 y.o is not really anything that strange when we consider many countries around the world have 12 as age of consent, and less than 100 years ago, so did almost all countries.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 51891 At my desk.	Re: Indonesian muslim cleric married 12-year-old. Reply #21 - Oct 28^th, 2008 at 7:43am It is very strange for a religious leader to openly break the law like this. Why didn't he just wait till she was 16? Even that is a bit young to be marrying an old bloke like that. And why is he still in such a position of respect?
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abu_rashid Gold Member Offline Aussie Muslim Posts: 8353	Re: Indonesian muslim cleric married 12-year-old. Reply #22 - Oct 28^th, 2008 at 8:15am Gaybriel has made a good point though, the age of consent in Indonesia is 16, and therefore it's illegal to be marrying someone under 16, and Islamically he should abide by that law.
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mozzaok

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Re: Indonesian muslim cleric married 12-year-old.
Reply #23 - Oct 28^th, 2008 at 8:46am

Pathetic responses Abu.
You never have the guts to identify anything about Islam as not being perfect.

Here is a hypothetical, say you have a "pre-teen" daughter or sister, and some local guy in his forties or fifties asks to marry her, would you object on the grounds that you think she is too young to marry?

Assume he is a good muslim etc.

Got the guts to give an honest response?

I won't hold my breath.

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abu_rashid

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Re: Indonesian muslim cleric married 12-year-old.
Reply #24 - Oct 28^th, 2008 at 4:39pm

since I am raised in the west with western concepts about marriage and age etc. I'd probably not feel too comfortable with it. But I can certainly see the wisdom behind marrying young (after reaching puberty that is) because it prevents that time between becoming physically an adult and legally an adult which modern day societies have created, and which is the most troublesome and destructive period in most kids lives, and often leads to a lot of the misery that plagues them throughout their lives.

Also you must realise not all cultures are Australian culture, and accept that in many countries this is the norm. Don't try to make yourself and your culture the universal judge of everyone else. It's quite ironic because this seems to be something you dislike about religion (islam specifically) is that you perceive them as making themselves universal judges of what's right and wrong.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 51891 At my desk.	Re: Indonesian muslim cleric married 12-year-old. Reply #25 - Oct 28^th, 2008 at 4:49pm Do you think this 12yo girl chose to marry the old man? Do you think she is in love? How can you talk of the misery of an extended childhood and education, then claim that marrying girls off at a young age is an improvement?
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Sprintcyclist Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 41186 Gender:	Re: Indonesian muslim cleric married 12-year-old. Reply #26 - Oct 28^th, 2008 at 5:25pm What about the misery of a vibrant sexual middle aged woman who is married to some very old (70 - 80) man ?
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Lestat

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Re: Indonesian muslim cleric married 12-year-old.
Reply #27 - Oct 28^th, 2008 at 9:04pm

freediver wrote on Oct 27^th, 2008 at 10:19am:

You've been told a number of times now that their is no clergy in Islam.....or hasn't it yet sunk into your thick head (just practising my right to freedom of speech remember).

Les are you claiming he is not a respected member of the local Muslim community? Are you claiming that this isn't a reflection of the attitudes of that Muslim community to pedophilia?

No..I am telling you that their is no clergy in Islam...something that has been told to you numerous times....yet it still hasn't sunk into your thick head.

This is your classic tactics...you get told the same thing over and over and over again, and its like it goes through one ear, and out the other. I'm beginning to think its a deliberate ploy...cause no one could possibly be so thick whislt running a web site, albeit a rather pathetic excuse for a forum.

I eagerly anticipate you once again describing an Islamic clergy...oops, oh wait, you already have in another thread. It didn't even take you a day?

Are you pretending to be this thick....really?

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abu_rashid

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Re: Indonesian muslim cleric married 12-year-old.
Reply #28 - Oct 28^th, 2008 at 9:26pm

Quote:

Do you think this 12yo girl chose to marry the old man?

Since I don't know her case, and neither do you, any claim would be nothing but speculation about what she did or didn't choose.

Quote:

Do you think she is in love?

In Islam we have quite a different perception of love than most non-Muslims do. To you it is usually a temporary overwhelming infatuation that disables reason and logic.

For us, it is a strong and spiritual bond that grows over time and is based around our belief in God, and in Islam.

So do I think she is infatuated (what you call love).. perhaps, perhaps no, I don't know. Do you think it's unusual for a 12 y.o girl to having feelings of love for an older man? If so, then you really don't know as much about females as you might think you do.

Quote:

the misery of an extended childhood and education

In many of these societies, whether a girl gets married at 12 or 16, she probably won't have much of an education anyway. Now I agree, that in itself is not good, as all people should have a right to education. But that's actually another issue, even though you're trying hard to tie them in together.. perhaps because of your recognition of the futility of your argument as it stands.

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Amadd

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If you get good grades in kindergarten....
Reply #29 - Nov 1^st, 2008 at 6:14pm

[mod: Let's not invent words of God] Islam says you are mature enough to marry. Grin

Police raided a wedding between a seven-year-old boy and a five-year-old girl in Pakistan's largest city, arresting the Muslim cleric officiating at the ceremony and the children's parents, a senior officer said. ...

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=658839

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« Last Edit: Nov 1^st, 2008 at 8:15pm by Amadd »

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