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polite_gandalf

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Re: concubines
Reply #135 - Jun 8^th, 2014 at 11:19pm

freediver wrote on Jun 8^th, 2014 at 10:01pm:

That was my point Gandalf.

Sorry FD, you'll have to explain that one to me. All this time you've been trying to convince us that Malik's views are the same as Abu and Falah because... they are in fact exact opposites?

and again, could you please provide some quotes of Malik that demonstrate he "makes a microcosm of the broader strategy of Islam. It allows itself to be represented by the limp wristed hippy version, then simply replaces it with the head chopping"?

freediver wrote on Jun 8^th, 2014 at 10:01pm:

Just like Abu. There's no such thing as a progressive Muslim, is there Gandalf?

Apparently I'm a "self described" progressive muslim - remember?

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« Last Edit: Jun 9^th, 2014 at 12:00am by polite_gandalf »

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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: concubines
Reply #136 - Jun 9^th, 2014 at 11:36am

Quote:

All this time you've been trying to convince us that Malik's views are the same as Abu and Falah

No I haven't.

Quote:

and again, could you please provide some quotes of Malik that demonstrate he "makes a microcosm of the broader strategy of Islam. It allows itself to be represented by the limp wristed hippy version, then simply replaces it with the head chopping"?

The transition from Malik to Abu.

Quote:

Apparently I'm a "self described" progressive muslim - remember?

Are you? At times you appear to concede that you are a progressive Muslim, only disputing whether you have declared it. At other times you appear to insist there is no such thing.

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Karnal

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Re: concubines
Reply #137 - Jun 9^th, 2014 at 1:40pm

Wrong answer, FD. The correct response is Abu, Falah, Malik and Gandalf are all the same because they’re all Muslims.

And as we know, Muslims believe exactly the same things, as brainwashed by their sinister imams, who take their orders from Al Qaida.

Any "progressive" Muslim is a liar who is merely practicing Taqiyya (Google Taqiyya). Each and every Muslim around the world - a quarter of the human race - is sworn to destroy the West and blow up.as many infidels as possible.

How do we know all this?

Because Abu and Falah evaded your questions.

Gandalf does the same, sometimes leaving you waiting for days for a reply to your important questions about Mo’s sex slaves, the correct Islamic punishment for raping your wife, or the number of prisoners killed in some 8th century battle.

Cunning, no?

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polite_gandalf

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Re: concubines
Reply #138 - Jun 9^th, 2014 at 4:41pm

freediver wrote on Jun 9^th, 2014 at 11:36am:

Quote:
All this time you've been trying to convince us that Malik's views are the same as Abu and Falah

No I haven't.

You not only lump them in the same ideological basket, you attribute BS claims to all 3:

freediver wrote on Aug 12^th, 2012 at 2:20pm:

How is it like a religion? Do you see anyone other than Muslims saying that we should be allowed to take home any women we capture on the battlefield and rape them at our leisure?

MOTR wrote on Aug 12^th, 2012 at 2:23pm:

How many Muslims believe this, Freediver?

freediver wrote on Aug 12^th, 2012 at 2:30pm:

As far as I can tell Abu, Lestat, Falah and Malik. The rest weren't around long enough to discuss it, or I have forgotten who they are.

...

and splitting muslims into two groups - gandalf, and the rest:

Quote:

Never fear Gandalf, it would take a sane Muslim to do that. You are still far ahead of Abu, Falah, Malik etc in my opinion.

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1362655638/47#47

Malik is polls apart from Abu and Falah, and I don't see any discernible difference between his views and mine. But to FD, they are all the same. And of course it goes without saying that in time I will be lumped in with them as well - despite claiming a distinction here.

Oh and while we're at it - on that BS line of yours about Malik being a shiite and being scared off by Abu who wanted to execute him:

Malik Shakur wrote on Jul 28^th, 2008 at 8:52am:

I'd just like to clarify here, while I follow on of the shia school's of thought I certainly don't consider myself a shia. I'm a Muslim plain and simple, the school of thought is simply a means to sift through all of the religious duties in a path that's already been mapped out by scholars previously..

We aren't sects like Christianity has.

freediver wrote on Jun 9^th, 2014 at 11:36am:

Quote:
Apparently I'm a "self described" progressive muslim - remember?

Are you? At times you appear to concede that you are a progressive Muslim, only disputing whether you have declared it.

I have not declared it - thats the point about me not being "self declared". Its just another entry to your very long list of BS claims of what muslims said on this forum. This in itself is a significant point - it speaks directly to your credibility at citing facts - ie since you have proven yourself to be such a serial offender as a fabricator of facts, why should you be believed on any claim you make?

freediver wrote on Jun 9^th, 2014 at 11:36am:

At other times you appear to insist there is no such thing.

At all times I have appeared to insist there is no such thing. There is nothing whatsoever in my posts here that suggest I believe there is - let alone that I identify as such. Again, 100% your own fabrication.

As I stated previously, the notion of a "progressive" muslim exists only in cynical anti-islam circles, and is simply a muslim who joins in on the trashing of islam and The Prophet. That is not me by the way.

I'm like Malik - my 'affiliation' - if you like, is "islam". Not any so called sect like sunni or shiite, and certainly not "progressive islam".

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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Mattywisk

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Re: concubines
Reply #139 - Jun 9^th, 2014 at 4:48pm

Karnal wrote on Jun 9^th, 2014 at 1:40pm:

Wrong answer, FD. The correct response is Abu, Falah, Malik and Gandalf are all the same because they’re all Muslims.

And as we know, Muslims believe exactly the same things, as brainwashed by their sinister imams, who take their orders from Al Qaida.

Any "progressive" Muslim is a liar who is merely practicing Taqiyya (Google Taqiyya). Each and every Muslim around the world - a quarter of the human race - is sworn to destroy the West and blow up.as many infidels as possible.

How do we know all this?

Because Abu and Falah evaded your questions.

Gandalf does the same, sometimes leaving you waiting for days for a reply to your important questions about Mo’s sex slaves, the correct Islamic punishment for raping your wife, or the number of prisoners killed in some 8th century battle.

Cunning, no?

Cunning ? I doubt it, but expected. A quarter of the human race was a giggle though I always enjoy ad libbers. Even if posted by pretend muslims.

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Re: concubines
Reply #140 - Jun 9^th, 2014 at 4:50pm

Quote:

You not only lump them in the same ideological basket, you attribute BS claims to all 3:

I lump them in the basket of "Muslims who I have previously discussed Islam with on this forum". It took me a long time to convince you that Falah and Malik even existed.

Quote:

As far as I can tell Abu, Lestat, Falah and Malik.

There we go - another Muslim you just finished insisting does not exist.

Quote:

Oh and while we're at it - on that BS line of yours about Malik being a shiite and being scared off by Abu who wanted to execute him:

Quote me.

Quote:

I have not declared it - thats the point about me not being "self declared". Its just another entry to your very long list of BS claims of what muslims said on this forum. This in itself is a significant point - it speaks directly to your credibility at citing facts - ie since you have proven yourself to be such a serial offender as a fabricator of facts, why should you be believed on any claim you make?

Constantly citing a progressive version of Islam makes you a self declared progressive Muslim. You declare it by the positions you espouse, and by deliberately differentiation yourself from conservative Muslims.

Quote:

And of course it goes without saying that in time I will be lumped in with them as well

If you can convince me you are not a progressive Muslim, I will.

Quote:

At all times I have appeared to insist there is no such thing.

No such thing as a progressive Muslim?

Quote:

As I stated previously, the notion of a "progressive" muslim exists only in cynical anti-islam circles, and is simply a muslim who joins in on the trashing of islam and The Prophet.

Did it occur to you that it may mean a Muslim who has a more progressive interpretation of Islam?

Quote:

I'm like Malik - my 'affiliation' - if you like, is "islam".

You are also like Abu in this regard. In fact Abu also liked to spin BS about Islam's core tenets being in line with progressive western values. Abu was just a bit more willing to discuss the details.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: concubines
Reply #141 - Jun 9^th, 2014 at 5:30pm

freediver wrote on Jun 9^th, 2014 at 4:50pm:

Quote:
Oh and while we're at it - on that BS line of yours about Malik being a shiite and being scared off by Abu who wanted to execute him:

Quote me.

Sure. You even started a thread about it.

freediver wrote on May 16^th, 2012 at 8:23am:

This is an interesting thread:

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1336430169/30#40

I pointed out that Abu scared Malik away because Malik is a shite, and Abu thinks shites should be stoned to death for apostasy.

Malik used to co-moderate the Islam board with Abu.

freediver wrote on Jun 9^th, 2014 at 4:50pm:

Constantly citing a progressive version of Islam makes you a self declared progressive Muslim.

I see!

Even when I myself don't consider it a "progressive version of islam"?

Saying I prescribe to a "progressive version of islam" implies that I acknowledge the existence of a "non-progressive" version. Which I don't. Islam is islam, it is perfect, and there is only one version as far as I'm concerned.

freediver wrote on Jun 9^th, 2014 at 4:50pm:

Abu was just a bit more willing to discuss the details.

Is that like me going to considerable effort to give you a detailed explanation of how I interpret Muhammad's example, and then 5 minutes later you turn around and rant about how gandalf never wants to explain how he interprets Muhammad's example?

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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Re: concubines
Reply #142 - Jun 9^th, 2014 at 5:50pm

Quote:

Even when I myself don't consider it a "progressive version of islam"?

Saying I prescribe to a "progressive version of islam" implies that I acknowledge the existence of a "non-progressive" version. Which I don't. Islam is islam, it is perfect, and there is only one version as far as I'm concerned.

How would you describe how your version of Islam differs from that of Abu and Malik? Is yours the one true version and theirs a false version?

Quote:

Is that like me going to considerable effort to give you a detailed explanation of how I interpret Muhammad's example

That's not how I would describe it. You were only slightly less evasive than in the core tenets thread. You did give one or two examples early on, but the closest thing to a methodology was "making it up as you go along".

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Re: concubines
Reply #143 - Jun 9^th, 2014 at 6:10pm

freediver wrote on Jun 9^th, 2014 at 5:50pm:

How would you describe how your version of Islam differs from that of Abu and Malik? Is yours the one true version and theirs a false version?

I told you already that I consider my views nearly identical to Malik - based on what I have read.

As for Abu, its difficult to differentiate between what he actually says and the fabricated claims you ascribe to him.

I disagree with him on some details such as the death penalty, but don't really have a clear grasp of his overall views.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Mattywisk Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 1373 Gender:	Re: concubines Reply #144 - Jun 9^th, 2014 at 6:13pm .
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Re: concubines
Reply #145 - Jun 9^th, 2014 at 6:56pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 9^th, 2014 at 6:10pm:

freediver wrote on Jun 9^th, 2014 at 5:50pm:

How would you describe how your version of Islam differs from that of Abu and Malik? Is yours the one true version and theirs a false version?

I told you already that I consider my views nearly identical to Malik - based on what I have read.

As for Abu, its difficult to differentiate between what he actually says and the fabricated claims you ascribe to him.

I disagree with him on some details such as the death penalty, but don't really have a clear grasp of his overall views.

I take it you disagree with him and Falah on concubines? They both believed that concubines are acceptable and that Muhammed himself had them in addition to his dozen or so wives.

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: concubines Reply #146 - Jun 9^th, 2014 at 7:17pm freediver wrote on Jun 9^th, 2014 at 6:56pm: I take it you disagree with him and Falah on concubines? They both believed that concubines are acceptable and that Muhammed himself had them in addition to his dozen or so wives. Can you quote them please?
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Re: concubines
Reply #147 - Jun 9^th, 2014 at 7:28pm

falah wrote on Jan 17^th, 2012 at 7:14pm:

The use of the term "sex slaves" is misleading. Hypothetically, Islam allows a man to have relationship with his female slaves similar to that a wife - a concubine.

FYI, it is "hypothetical" today because Islam only allows the enslavement of non-Muslims, which would require them to win a war against non-Muslims.

Abu, on the first two posts of this thread:

freediver wrote on Oct 21^st, 2008 at 1:24pm:

Under what situations does/did Islam permit concubines? Is a concubine regarded as additional or separate to a wife?

abu_rashid wrote on Oct 21^st, 2008 at 3:36pm:

Today there are no situations in which it's permitted.

Yes it is considered seperate to a wife.

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: concubines Reply #148 - Jun 10^th, 2014 at 11:58am I was more interested in their "belief" that Muhammad himself had concubines. I searched myself and came up short for Abu.
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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 50106 At my desk.	Re: concubines Reply #149 - Jun 10^th, 2014 at 12:39pm There was some discussion of specific concubines.
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