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More facts for the deniers.... (Read 30403 times)
Grendel
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Re: More facts for the deniers....
Reply #105 - Oct 24th, 2008 at 12:16pm
 
would that have been days after you forgot me?


frankly...  I have no PROOF is proof enough for me you're argument is pointless.

I was willing to listen... you dropped the ball.
('bout 10 days ago )
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muso
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Re: More facts for the deniers....
Reply #106 - Oct 24th, 2008 at 2:16pm
 
Grendel,

You're obviously looking for an out, because you're out of depth and out of your usual modus operandi of making shallow snipes without substance and without thinking it through.

Let's say you were planning a holiday several months ahead, would you give up on the basis that we have no proof that the airline will still be in business then?

If we wanted proof, we'd never carry out engineering projects for example.

The best we can do is to make our predictions on the basis of the best evidence available.

Does Carbon dioxide act as a Greenhouse Gas? Yes. Does the Earth's Carbon balance demonstrate that carbon dioxide is building up in the atmosphere, adding approximately 1-2ppm each year? Yes.

Is there evidence that the CO2 is from fossil fuel burning and cement production? Yes - on the basis that these sources have a specific isotope signature.

Will the CO2 translate to an increase in global average temperatures?
Yes, because of the fundamental propoerties of CO2.

But isn't water the most important Greenhouse Gas, and didn't you guys forget about it when you did your calculations?

- er guess what - It's accounted for. This may surprise you but climatologists do actually know elementary climatology theory.

"Human activities contribute to climate change by causing changes in Earth’s atmosphere in the amounts of greenhouse gases, aerosols (small particles), and cloudiness. The largest known contribution comes from the burning of fossil fuels, which releases carbon dioxide gas to the atmosphere. Greenhouse gases and aerosols affect climate by altering incoming solar radiation and out-going infrared (thermal) radiation that are part of Earth’s energy balance. Changing the atmospheric abundance or properties of these gases and particles can lead to a warming or cooling of the climate system. Since the start of the industrial era (about 1750), the overall effect of human activities on climate has been a warming influence. The human impact on climate during this era greatly exceeds that due to known changes in natural processes, such as solar changes and volcanic eruptions."  - AR4WG1 - FAQ's

We're talking about convincing evidence that we're headed for trouble right now. It's not a 50:50 Pascal Wager situation, it's about as dead cert as you can get.

- and Grendel - Why don't you find a nice girl and settle down? Wink
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« Last Edit: Oct 24th, 2008 at 2:21pm by muso »  

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Amadd
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Mo

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Re: More facts for the deniers....
Reply #107 - Oct 24th, 2008 at 5:06pm
 
As usual BO, your replies are not making much sense.

Quote:
I don't have conspiranut theories... I leave them to the resident conspiranut Amadd.


I was asking you what you think the "motif operandi" may be.
It must be a pretty way out conspiranut theory if you can't even provide at least one simple motif operandi.
Al Gore? Have you really used that one?

Quote:
I'm simply waiting for proof.
Something none of you "deniers" have supplied as yet.


Well it's you that is in denial. I'm merely trusting the greater opinion of well trained scientists.
And yes, I'd trust their opinion over yours.


Quote:
I leave the name-calling and messenger shooting to you, it's part of denial.


You're not being a messenger, you're up on a soapbox stating that anybody who doesn't believe what I say is true is a denier of truth....please show us your scientific credentials before your make those types of claims.

Quote:
There is no proof to back your theory.
But there is proof that the Sun, the Earth, etc, etc, etc affect climate.  beyond that it all gets a little bit too theoretical.  
You have NO PROOF.


It's not my theory. I didn't invent it. I'm simply making a personal decision that if they are 10% correct on this one, then we should be doing something about it; the consequences of doing nothing may be 1000 times greater than the consequences of taking action.

Quote:
Provide it...  I'm happy to say gee look at that man-made CO2 is the driver of climate change...  LOL  


There is no way that I can provide proof. I'm not even one scientist, and either are you.
All that I can say is, that given the current information that we have at our disposal, it would be ridiculous to not take this threat seriously.
If it's ever proven that this whole thing has been a scam, then there will no doubt be hell to pay, and I'll go into battle with you in search of heads on sticks.
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Grendel
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Re: More facts for the deniers....
Reply #108 - Oct 24th, 2008 at 5:31pm
 
Getting bored conspiranut.
I don't believe I was talking to you
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freediver
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Re: More facts for the deniers....
Reply #109 - Oct 24th, 2008 at 5:44pm
 
You will get your proof, or as close as we are going to get, when we cut back our CO2 emissions and see what impact it has on climate change.

But proof isn't really what you are after is it?
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Amadd
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Mo

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Re: More facts for the deniers....
Reply #110 - Oct 24th, 2008 at 5:46pm
 
To tell you truth BO, boredom was reached many many moons ago with you. The lack of logical response that you provide tanscends boredom, it goes into uncharted territories.



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Grendel
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Re: More facts for the deniers....
Reply #111 - Oct 24th, 2008 at 5:56pm
 
ah yes it is freediver.
I can think of no other thing required.

oh you always bore me Amadd.  Cheesy
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Amadd
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Mo

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Re: More facts for the deniers....
Reply #112 - Oct 24th, 2008 at 6:02pm
 
Of course answering simple questions has always been one of your pet aversions hasn't it BO?

You still haven't quite grasped that concept have you?

Comment deleted by moderator. Name calling is uncalled for.




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« Last Edit: Oct 24th, 2008 at 9:47pm by muso »  
 
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freediver
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Re: More facts for the deniers....
Reply #113 - Oct 24th, 2008 at 6:06pm
 
So why do you keep asking for proof? Why not just wait to see what happens when we reduce our emissions?
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Amadd
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Mo

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Re: More facts for the deniers....
Reply #114 - Oct 24th, 2008 at 6:16pm
 
Quote:
I was asking you what you think the "motif operandi" may be.
It must be a pretty way out conspiranut theory if you can't even provide at least one simple motif operandi.
Al Gore? Have you really used that one?

Grin
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Soren
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Re: More facts for the deniers....
Reply #115 - Oct 24th, 2008 at 6:57pm
 
muso wrote on Oct 22nd, 2008 at 7:41pm:
Soren wrote on Oct 22nd, 2008 at 9:35am:
Letter in yesterday's Oz:

ATMOSPHERIC CO2 is currently 382 parts per million. The Ordovician-Silurian (450-420 million years ago) and Jurassic-Cretaceous (151-132 million years ago) glaciations occurred when the atmospheric CO2 content was more than 4000 and at least 2000 parts per million respectively.
If CO2 drives climate, why was there glaciation and not a runaway greenhouse?

Professor Ian Plimer
School of Earth & Environmental Sciences,
The Mawson Laboratories,
The University of Adelaide, SA





- because things have changed since the Silurian. The laughable thing about that post is that a geologist should know exactly how inaccurate CO2 proxies are from around 450 million years.

Also - think about my earlier question about the natural log relationship and you might be able to answer the question yourself.

(Oh I forgot - you prefer to cut and paste rather than think independently. )

Apart from that, the periods where CO2 concentration was high coincided with periods where the earth had extensive and dense rainforests. Compare that to today and it's obvious that we're dealing with chalk and cheese. Biota provides buffering capacity.

Our proxies for CO2 are about as inaccurate as our proxies for solar irradiance during that period.

CO2 and temperature are inter-related, as I have explained, increase one and the other increases, but hey, let's compare apples with apples.



With due respect, this is a lot of abracadabra (to pick up on the muslim theme).
There is no testable scientific theory in climate speculations. There is only conjecture and speculation based on computer models. All the abracadabra is about tic-tacing about the data of the simulations. This is not science in the sence of formulating a theory, testing it experimentally and trying to replicate the experiment to test the findings and thus refining the original theory.

With cliamte change, as with the flights of birds, there is only selective bolstering of the original pronouncement (not testable theory) of global warming and its causes.
I think it is ridiculous to to be so convinced that human can influence the climate. Talk about not knowing one's station. I think it an apocalyptic delusion of grandeaur. 

I am open about cliamte change. Maybe it is happeningh again, as it has been happening beforee over the centuries, millenia, eons. To blamee humans is a major political overreach.  In any case there is no way of experimentally showing (proving, to use a dirty word) human causation.
Beyond that it is a political, not a scientific, argument and thee most huristic kind by the boosters. They get really, really upset because they have no way of pulling the political wool over people's eyes.i



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« Last Edit: Oct 24th, 2008 at 7:05pm by Soren »  
 
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freediver
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Re: More facts for the deniers....
Reply #116 - Oct 24th, 2008 at 7:02pm
 
There is no testable scientific theory in climate speculations. There is only conjecture and speculation based on computer models. All the abracadabra is about tic-tacing about the data of the simulations. This is not scinece in the sence of formulating a theory, testing it experimentally and trying to replicatee the experiment to test the findings and thus refining the original theory.

There are plenty of testable theories. Using similations does not negate this.
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Soren
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Re: More facts for the deniers....
Reply #117 - Oct 24th, 2008 at 7:07pm
 
freediver wrote on Oct 24th, 2008 at 7:02pm:
There is no testable scientific theory in climate speculations. There is only conjecture and speculation based on computer models. All the abracadabra is about tic-tacing about the data of the simulations. This is not scinece in the sence of formulating a theory, testing it experimentally and trying to replicatee the experiment to test the findings and thus refining the original theory.

There are plenty of testable theories. Using similations does not negate this.



Oh yes it does. Sitting by a computer is not conducting an experiment. It is sitting in a room, playing with numbers in 'what if' scenarios. it has rather a lot in common with marketing but not science.

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freediver
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Re: More facts for the deniers....
Reply #118 - Oct 24th, 2008 at 7:12pm
 
The fact that sitting in front of a computer is not conducting an experiment has no bearing on whether the theories underpinning climate change science are testable. They are still testable, even if someone decided to consult their tea leaves over them.
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Grendel
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Re: More facts for the deniers....
Reply #119 - Oct 24th, 2008 at 7:27pm
 
gigo

parameter fiddling etc, etc,etc...

I want proof freediver.

So far Soren puts up better arguments.
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