No IMp, what is he getting at?

I will guess that it may be something like,
"Islam is perfect in every way, and anything bad that happens in the world is completely the fault of the west, and if the west would just die we could have a new Islamic caliphate and we would see a glorious age of peace and enlightenment for all"

or something like that?

You see Imp, we just do not buy that, we agree that the west has lots of problems, we have violence done in our name we do not agree with, we have money spent on arms that we would rather see spent on education, and we accept that we are not perfect in every way.
We do however have the right to voice our disagreement with our governments' actions, we do have the right to proffer new candidates and political views to try and improve the situation, and even though human nature, greed, violence, selfishness, etc. will always exist, our culture has evolved.
It is better now than before, more rights, more freedoms, more beer(sorry, I don't know how that slipped onto the list), more understanding.

So I agree with your right to speak out about things you disagree with, but the contention that installing a new caliphate will magically cure all human folly and weakness, and create a perfect world, is the height of naive delusion.
The fact is that for the vast majority of the world it would have to be seen as religious oppression.

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The thread was about atrocities committed by US soldiers. As far as I was aware USA is a secularist country, therefore he's quite right in pinning it on secularism.

Wait, I forgot, according to freediver's rafferty's rules of debate, whenever your side does something wrong, we pin it on your ideology (even if it doesn't rule your countries anymore) but when our side does something wrong, you can't pin it on our ideology, because it's us, and we're always right!!

How forgetful of me...

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American society/government is not run on Christianity. Capitalism is an economic system, not an ideology.

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Most of the US propaganda about the war tends to suggest it's about secularism, freedom and democracy. Bringing those ideas to the Middle East and shoving them down other's throats..

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Doesn't matter what they are as individuals, they are part of an army, and they are fighting for the goals of that army. Regardless of their own individual personal beliefs.

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Although capitalism can have ideological ramifications for the states in which it's implemented, it is not an ideological system as such. It is primarily an economic system. No false dichotomy, since secularism and capitalism cover very different areas, therefore the dichotomy is valid. Secularism is a broad ideological outlook on how humans should organise their societies, capitalism is not.

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Secularism is key. There can be no freedom nor democracy without secularism. Since if you do not seperate 'Mosque and State', then you will not have freedom, as Islam is the antithesis of freedom remember? Likewise you won't have democracy, as Islam does not permit humans (demos) to rule (kratos) by their own whims and desires, it demands Shari'ah law be implemented.

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What crimes a communist army commits or a muslim army commits or a christian army commits or a nazi army commits, and yes even a secular army commits, are rightly to be blamed on that ideology they're fighting for, not on what that individual's own personal beliefs are. I'm sure a lot of Hitler's soldiers didn't actually believe in the nazi ideology, likewise a lot of soviet soldiers during their invasions of afghanistan, czechslovakia etc. probably didn't believe in communism either, but they were fighting for that ideology, and their actions are reflected onto that ideology, not onto their own personal beliefs. I really can't believe I had to spell that out for you freediver. Either you're being facetious, or you really have no idea.

freediver wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2008 at 11:45am:


And Saddams Iraq did not commit the attacks on the Kurds in the name of Islam...yet Islam is blamed.

And the PLO have not committed attacks in the name of Islam..yet Islam is blamed.

And Hezbollah has not committed the attacks in the name of Islam (they clearly state that they are defending Lebennon) yet once again Islam is blamed.

And Syria is a secular ba'athist state...yet anything done by Syria is once again blamed on Islam.

Yes fd..your right, it doesn't make any sense. Perhaps you should think about that when you next blame 'Islam' for any political or territorial dispute which may involve muslims.

Tell me fd...why is the shi'ite/sunni clashes in Iraq described as a 'sectarian violence'...yet I have never heard the media describe the Northern Ireland troubles between the Catholics and Protestants in the same way.

Seems that 'sectarian violence' is a term reserved for muslims. Just another term which is used by the media to brainwash the public to almost sheepishly equate violence to Islam. Your so trained that you now don't even know that your doing it.

When you hear the word 'terrorism'..I bet the first thing that pops into your mind is Islam? Why is that? It is because that is how you have been conditioned to think.

I have just shown you that you can take any incident in the world, committed by any people, and put a slant on it attacking whoever you like. And as Goebells said...you repeat the same lie time and time again...and then people will begin to believe it regardless.

You say "That makes no more sense than blaming it on Christianity because the US is a Christian nation" but that IS EXACTLY WHAT YOU CONTINUOUSLY DO. You blame Islam because xxx is a muslim nation.

Thats what you have been trained to do. Conditioned...by a propaganda machine that is so efficient, so in control of your thought process, that not only do you allow it to happen...you actually defend it.

Isn't it time that you woke up from your slumber...look around, look at whats 'really' going on in the world. People who are just like you, trying to live there lives with there loved ones in peace, are being slaughtered in the hundreds of thousands by people representing YOU and your ideals.

You say your 'freedoms' must be protected. It is in fact there freedoms that are being taken away, by despotic regimes often supported, and backed by western nations. Egypt receives 4.5 billion dollars a year from the US...reward the oppression and mysery Mubarak dishes out to his people. Those Saudi's that you are so critical off, receive the second highest amount of military aid behind Israel...reward for the trillions of dollars the Saudi's invest in the US (1.5% of US GDP), oil bribes for the US to prop up a regime who's long list of attrocities I'm sure you are aware of. The US sends arab prisoners to Syria (German Born Al-Masri, well document incident), yes, you read right...Syria of all places, to torture and inflict pain on them.

Is this the kind of world you want to live in. Is this what your 'western' ideals and your 'freedoms' are worth...that people can be kidnapped and shipped to countries to be tortured...often innocent people that only suspicions was that they have a beard and did not confirm to your way of life. Are these deaths, torture and the destruction of so many peoples lives really so easy to shrug off as a necessity of this so called 'war on terror'.

They have brainwashed you into believing there deaths are 'necessary' for your 'freedoms'. You not only tolerate..but support what is happening to these people, things that you would never tolerate in your own country, happening to you and your loved ones.

Do you truly believe that your happiness can only be guaranteed by others suffering.

You once told me that 'decent people would speak up and do something'.

Tell me FD...are you decent enough to speak up?

What crimes a communist army commits or a muslim army commits or a christian army commits or a nazi army commits, and yes even a secular army commits, are rightly to be blamed on that ideology

On which ideology but? There are plenty to choose from, like communism or capitalism, democracy, secularism, freedom, muesli for breakfast etc. Randomly picking one is an association fallacy. The ideology should only be blamed if it causes the problem, not if it is merely associated with it. Furthermore blaming the ideology, and claiming that the perpetrators are ideological extremists, even if they don't even share the ideology, is absurd. I'm not sure why you are having such trouble with this point. You can't label someone an ideological extremist if they don't even share the ideology. It's like you don't even know what the term means.

No false dichotomy, since secularism and capitalism cover very different areas, therefore the dichotomy is valid.

That is not the false dichotomy you drew.

Secularism is key. There can be no freedom nor democracy without secularism.

Wrong. Maybe under Islam this is the case. Plenty of other religions allow democracy. Plenty of them allow freedom.

And Saddams Iraq did not commit the attacks on the Kurds in the name of Islam...yet Islam is blamed.

Did anyone claim that Saddam is an Islamic extremist? Did anyone claim his soldiers were Islamic extremists? If you can see why this would be an absurd claim, why do you use it to justify equally absurd claims against 'them'. It's like you are looking for any reason to stop thinking fvor yourself.

So you started a string of threads making claims you knew to be wrong and absurd because you thought others were doing the same?

Something wrong with being anti-Islam?