Karnal wrote on Oct 8^th, 2014 at 8:13pm:

As long as they don't turn out like you, we must spare no effort.

Annie Anthrax wrote on Oct 8^th, 2014 at 8:43pm:

I hope to achieve equality with the hijabi/niqabi wom,an- she is communicating what she thinks of my customs and culture, it is the least I can do when I tell her what I think of hers.


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If she was coerced, yes. She would let me know it's not her choice. Either she is a free and independent agent - or what the hell is she doing in Australia??


I am surprised by your response, I must say. As a supposedly fiercely independent person (I wouldn't DARE say independent woman for fear of imposing Western expectations onto your value-neutral, gender-neutral multicultural expectation  - all of which are totally absent in Islam, especially hijabi/niqabi Islam.  Still, we must pretend universal values as long as they favour Islam. If they don’t, we must condemn them as parocially Western, colonialist remnants.)


Victimhood is not something muslims will give up easily. It is a lot less hard work than taking responsibility.

freediver wrote on Oct 8^th, 2014 at 9:21pm:


I can just imagine it, FD.

FD: "Stop harassing that woman wearing a Niqab!"
Guy: "smack off!  She shouldn't be wearing that Burka!  It is against Australian values!"
FD: "Stop harassing that woman wearing a Niqab!"
Guy slinks off in the face of your admonishment.
FD: "Woman, why are you wearing that Niqab?  It is against Australian values!  You should be standing up for your freeeedom!"    

Annie Anthrax wrote on Oct 9^th, 2014 at 7:10am:


In my view Muslim dress, beards, pajamas on the street etc are not expressions of individuality but the very opposite. They are expressions of tribal group membership. The niqab especially is nothing but the complete erasure of individuality. The hijab is merely on the lighter expression of the same attitude.

SO the personal freedom argument is not quite credible.

Soren wrote on Oct 9^th, 2014 at 9:21am:


So? The same could be said of men in suits or Adidas tracksuits. Women in imitation Ugg boots and denim shorts. It's just a different tribe and your intolerance of them shows your own tribal mentality. To transcend that, we have to look beyond the tribe to the individual, regardless of their clothing. People deserve that.

Poll added

What are
polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 5^th, 2014 at 12:36pm:
?

a) Muslims making people fear for their lives if they make youtube videos, cartoons or books about Muhammed.

b)
polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 8^th, 2014 at 3:51pm:


c) Something else.

freediver wrote on Oct 9^th, 2014 at 12:28pm:


Well, your attitude is a big part of it. It's so annoying that you think its your place to tell a woman you don't agree with how she behaves. Who are you to rebuke perfect strangers about what they wear or why they wear it or why they don't leave their partners? How would you like a perfect stranger approaching you and telling you to put a shirt on because hairy backs are gross?

You dramatically exaggerate the threat of a tiny number of extremist Muslims. Democracy used to be such a big part of what you posted but now you only mention it as it pertains to Islam. That's frightening in our current climate.

You never admit you've made a mistake about Islamic law and post to reflect that. This means you are spreading misinformation.

I disagree with you about Muslim people in general -  I know that the overwhelming majority of Australian Muslims are positive, productive contributors to our society while you seem to think a radical lurks within every one.

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You claimed that the Muslim community is holding hands with, and on the same page as, the rest of our community on the issue of freedom of speech. The right to depict and mock Muhammed is entirely relevant to that, as is the refusal of the Muslim community to have any debate on the issue or to speak out in defense of that right. If you still think this is irrelevant, check the thread title. Muslims are either hostile to this right, often violently so, or silently watching their fellow Muslims undermine it by whatever means are available. This is not just in Australia. It is a consistent worldwide phenomenon. As usual, I blame Islam.

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Based on what you have posted, they are a restriction on press freedom, and your association of that with freedom of speech is not unreasonable. Not sure whether I support it. The ability of ASIO to do things secretly is fundamental to their line of work. I accept the potential for this to be abused, and the civil libertarians are right to speak out about their concerns. For this one, the devil is in the detail. Or God, depending on your perspective.

I support restrictions on Muslims who want to take a little holiday in a war zone. I do not really consider international travel to be a human right. You need permission, from both countries. Always have. Probably always will, unless Muslims have their way.

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Not our freedom, unless they come back. They are certainly a threat to the freedom and rights of the Iraqis and Syrians they are raping and killing.

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This is the freedom of speech thread Annie, not the irony thread.

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I think you are confusing me with Soren. How would I know the relationship details of a complete stranger in order to rebuke them?

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About 100 of them. They are doing a lot of damage. In fact they are waging a war, and we are getting slowly dragged into it.

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You'll have to explain this one to me. I was barely aware people oppose democracy until I came across Abu et al. I do still promote electoral reform, but that is a long way from the issue of rejecting democracy in principle.

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We need to speak up more, not less. We should not refrain from having the debate about how Islam is incompatible with western values merely because it happens to be demonstrating that incompatibility as we speak. That is part of the problem.

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I update the wiki occasionally. You will have to be more specific.

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How do you know this?

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Please, enlighten us.