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Poll Poll
Question: most effective attacks on our freedom of speech?

Muslims preventing people from mocking Muhammed    
  11 (55.0%)
Journalists not reporting some ASIO intel ops    
  4 (20.0%)
Something else    
  5 (25.0%)




Total votes: 20
« Created by: freediver on: Oct 9th, 2014 at 12:43pm »

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Is Islam against free speech? (Read 157371 times)
Annie Anthrax
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Re: Is Islam against free speech?
Reply #210 - Oct 5th, 2014 at 9:02am
 
freediver wrote on Oct 5th, 2014 at 8:38am:


That would probably not have saved time.
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Re: Is Islam against free speech?
Reply #211 - Oct 5th, 2014 at 12:36pm
 
freediver wrote on Oct 5th, 2014 at 7:15am:
Crap. 18c specifically protects 'serious' attempts. The government has no place telling us what opinions we are allowed to have and express about historical events or historical figures. What (I hope) Brandis means is that anyone stupid enough to push that barrow is inevitably going to get themselves into trouble for hate speech. Either that or he is simply wrong.


Holocaust denial is unlawful in this country - the Attorney General himself said so. Anyone who has tried to promote it in the public sphere has been hauled off to the High Court and gagged. David Irving was banned from entering Australia to promote his holocaust denial.

You simply got this one wrong FD - just like you were wrong about there being more Aussie muslims fighting for ISIS than the ADF.

freediver wrote on Oct 5th, 2014 at 7:15am:
Because you keep running away. You refuse to say what it is.


Yes, I've come to learn that attempting to explain a more nuanced position that isn't the completely out-of-touch over-simplistic black and white view of it is, in FD world, "running away" from it.

Whereas on planet earth, Gandalf has patiently laid out his position on the issue which takes into account the importance of finding a balance between rights to free speech and rights to not be vilified or intimidated. Unlike FD who refuses to even acknowledge the real risk of discrimination and prejudice becoming culturalised, Gandalf understands that the issue is never simple, and that a nuanced approach to the issue is required.

freediver wrote on Oct 5th, 2014 at 7:15am:
Crap. The 18c debate was framed as a freedom of speech issue.


Indeed - and has it got through yet that the upshot of it all was that a huge majority of Australians ended up on the side of restricting freedoms to protect against vilification - and even mere
offense? I That puts the wider Australian community in the muslim category according to your logic. I believe I've mentioned this rather relevant point about 4 times already with no response.

freediver wrote on Oct 5th, 2014 at 7:15am:
Muslims, including leaders of the Australian Muslim community remain devoutly silent on the issue of freedom of speech in the face of egregious and effective attacks on freedom of speech by Muslims.


Wow FD - forgive me if I'm just totally bowled over by the hypocricy here.

I must have missed all the passionate protests by you and all the other 'freedom loving' non-muslims against the raft of anti-terror laws that are some of the most egregious and effective attacks on our freedom of speech we have ever seen - and should be top of the list of concerns for anyone purporting to be interested in our values and freedoms. Did you even notice that the laws went through? I barely did, because there was barely a peep of opposition to it - certainly not from the mob who are so busy grandstanding about the threat posed by the muslim community.

Does that make the wider Australian community freedom hating muslim?
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:
Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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freediver
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Re: Is Islam against free speech?
Reply #212 - Oct 5th, 2014 at 3:15pm
 
Quote:
Holocaust denial is unlawful in this country - the Attorney General himself said so.


And yet I just denied the holocaust, without punishment. If you'd like I can send an email to the AG informing him that the holocaust did not occur, just to test this theory.

Quote:
Anyone who has tried to promote it in the public sphere has been hauled off to the High Court and gagged.


Who?

Quote:
Yes, I've come to learn that attempting to explain a more nuanced position


Justifying your position and excusing it is not the same as explaining what your position is. Pretending that a question about the right to mock Muhammed is the same as a question about your support for 18c is avoiding the question, not answering it.

Quote:
Whereas on planet earth, Gandalf has patiently laid out his position on the issue which takes into account the importance of finding a balance between rights to free speech and rights to not be vilified or intimidated.


We all want a balance Gandalf. The difference is that you talk of balance while being unwilling to say where that balance lies. You offer nothing but empty rhetoric.

Quote:
Indeed - and has it got through yet that the upshot of it all was that a huge majority of Australians ended up on the side of restricting freedoms to protect against vilification - and even mere
offense? I That puts the wider Australian community in the muslim category according to your logic.


You'll have to explain this logic to me. It is certainly nothing I have stated.

Quote:
I believe I've mentioned this rather relevant point about 4 times already with no response.


I have responded 4 times. You have ignored that response, 4 times.

Quote:
I must have missed all the passionate protests by you and all the other 'freedom loving' non-muslims against the raft of anti-terror laws that are some of the most egregious and effective attacks on our freedom of speech we have ever seen


You'll have to explain this one to me.
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Re: Is Islam against free speech?
Reply #213 - Oct 5th, 2014 at 3:36pm
 
freediver wrote on Oct 5th, 2014 at 3:15pm:
And yet I just denied the holocaust, without punishment. If you'd like I can send an email to the AG informing him that the holocaust did not occur, just to test this theory.


Good point FD. Piracy is also illegal. Yet I pirate movies just about every day - without punishment. If you'd like I can send an email to whatever authorities you like informing him that I download movies illegally - every day, just to test this theory.

freediver wrote on Oct 5th, 2014 at 3:15pm:
Quote:
Anyone who has tried to promote it in the public sphere has been hauled off to the High Court and gagged.


Who?


Friedrick Toben.

freediver wrote on Oct 5th, 2014 at 3:15pm:
We all want a balance Gandalf. The difference is that you talk of balance while being unwilling to say where that balance lies.

'
Actually, you haven't indicated at all that you want this FD. This is a good opportunity for you to clearly articulate what measure you think should be in place to protect against vilification and discrimination - for once.

freediver wrote on Oct 5th, 2014 at 3:15pm:
You'll have to explain this logic to me. It is certainly nothing I have stated.


Then at least explain to me how you think the 18c debate somehow demonstrated the wider non-muslim communities' love for free speech - even though it clearly demonstrated that most people are in favour of restricting free speech in the interests of combating vilification. And explain to me why this demonstration doesn't make the wider non-muslim community just as guilty as the muslims of "chipping away" at our freedoms "at every opportunity".

freediver wrote on Oct 5th, 2014 at 3:15pm:
You'll have to explain this one to me.


Do you consider the anti-terror laws that have just passed an egregious threat to our freedoms? More so than the threat posed by the Australian muslim community?
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:
Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Re: Is Islam against free speech?
Reply #214 - Oct 5th, 2014 at 3:42pm
 
Annie Anthrax wrote on Oct 5th, 2014 at 8:09am:
freediver wrote on Oct 5th, 2014 at 7:55am:
So a reasonable criticism is when you join a hatchet job thread and the hatchet mongers demand you state your position on the matter and you concede that you think it is a bad thing?

Would it be possible to stand a bit more firmly on the side of freedom of speech without having your efforts written off as a hatchet job on Muslims? Or do I have to wait until someone asks me what I think?


This thread is a hatchet job because you have an agenda. It's a hatchet job when taken in the context of your weird obsessive views of Islam. It's a hatchet job when viewed that it will be used as fodder for your wiki, which contained a shitload of misinformation a couple of years ago and probably still does. I think you have gone from genuinely caring about freedom of speech to viewing it as a tool to vilify Islam and Muslims.


The 57 Islamic countries who are members of the OIC have been trying to impose blasphemy laws on the entire world,is that evidence of Islam being against free speech?

Quote:
A leading Islamic organization signalled on wednesday that it will revive long standing attempts to make insults against religions an international criminal offence.
www.reuters.com/article/2012/09/19/us-protests-religions-blasphemy-idUSBRE88I1EG...


It is not the christians/jews/buddhists/hindu/FSM religions that ask for blasphemy laws it is muslims!
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Leftists and the Ayatollahs have a lot in common when it comes to criticism of Islam, they don't tolerate it.
 
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Re: Is Islam against free speech?
Reply #215 - Oct 5th, 2014 at 4:10pm
 
Baronvonrort wrote on Oct 5th, 2014 at 3:42pm:
Annie Anthrax wrote on Oct 5th, 2014 at 8:09am:
freediver wrote on Oct 5th, 2014 at 7:55am:
So a reasonable criticism is when you join a hatchet job thread and the hatchet mongers demand you state your position on the matter and you concede that you think it is a bad thing?

Would it be possible to stand a bit more firmly on the side of freedom of speech without having your efforts written off as a hatchet job on Muslims? Or do I have to wait until someone asks me what I think?


This thread is a hatchet job because you have an agenda. It's a hatchet job when taken in the context of your weird obsessive views of Islam. It's a hatchet job when viewed that it will be used as fodder for your wiki, which contained a shitload of misinformation a couple of years ago and probably still does. I think you have gone from genuinely caring about freedom of speech to viewing it as a tool to vilify Islam and Muslims.


The 57 Islamic countries who are members of the OIC have been trying to impose blasphemy laws on the entire world,is that evidence of Islam being against free speech?

Quote:
A leading Islamic organization signalled on wednesday that it will revive long standing attempts to make insults against religions an international criminal offence.
www.reuters.com/article/2012/09/19/us-protests-religions-blasphemy-idUSBRE88I1EG...


It is not the christians/jews/buddhists/hindu/FSM religions that ask for blasphemy laws it is muslims!


Baron I posted this on 3/10/14

Here you go Gandalf, a veritable plethora of Shiite by the Shiite's is available on the website. They wanted  blasphemy of the Mo made an offence under the UN. If the stupid crap had been agreed to all Muslims would have become blasphemers! Just shows the stupidity of Muslims/Islam. For instance you do believe Jesus was the son of God/Allah don't you?
http://www.oic-oci.org/oicv2/home/?lan=en

It appears that not one of the believers are...

Believers... They did not look at the website...they did not accept that what was on the website or they are unable to comprehend what was on the website.

Ignorance is bliss and they are blissfully ignorant. 
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Re: Is Islam against free speech?
Reply #216 - Oct 5th, 2014 at 4:39pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 5th, 2014 at 3:36pm:
freediver wrote on Oct 5th, 2014 at 3:15pm:
And yet I just denied the holocaust, without punishment. If you'd like I can send an email to the AG informing him that the holocaust did not occur, just to test this theory.


Good point FD. Piracy is also illegal. Yet I pirate movies just about every day - without punishment. If you'd like I can send an email to whatever authorities you like informing him that I download movies illegally - every day, just to test this theory.

freediver wrote on Oct 5th, 2014 at 3:15pm:
Quote:
Anyone who has tried to promote it in the public sphere has been hauled off to the High Court and gagged.


Who?


Friedrick Toben.


The Adelaide institute was founded by Toben. Despite a court federal court order against him, he still has this on the website:

http://www.adelaideinstitute.org/HomePage28April2009/holocaust_lie/holocaust_lie.htm

However, what credible historical investigators worldwide now assert—and with excellent reasons—is that the German Reich did not give murderous orders concerning, and in fact did not actually murder, the Jews in its camps.

Is this holocaust denial? Is Toben flying under the radar?

Quote:
Actually, you haven't indicated at all that you want this FD.


You have accused me of being some kind of free speech extremist, many times. Many times, I have responded that rights and freedom inevitably conflict and must therefor be balanced against each other. What matters is that the people involved actually value freedom of speech and other freedoms, rather than using a facade of balance to push an anti-freedom agenda.

Quote:
This is a good opportunity for you to clearly articulate what measure you think should be in place to protect against vilification and discrimination - for once.


Freedom of speech is the best defense. Silencing people who say objectionable things inevitably fails, and draws attention to what they have to say. You draw the line when it become instigation of violence or a direct threat to our freedom - the standard legal caveat that freedom of speech does not permit you to yell fire in a crowded theatre (unless of course there is a fire).

Quote:
Then at least explain to me how you think the 18c debate somehow demonstrated the wider non-muslim communities' love for free speech


I have, over and over again, in this thread.

Quote:
And explain to me why this demonstration doesn't make the wider non-muslim community just as guilty as the muslims of "chipping away" at our freedoms "at every opportunity".


In this case I believe it does make them guilty of chipping away at our freedoms (or at least, those who stood up for the current version of the legislation). I hope I don't need  to explain why this demonstration is not the same as doing it at every opportunity.

Quote:
Do you consider the anti-terror laws that have just passed an egregious threat to our freedoms? More so than the threat posed by the Australian muslim community?


Like I said, you will have to explain it to me. I am not aware of any restriction on freedom of speech. Are you complaining that Muslims can no longer get together and talk about their plans to blow things up?





where do you draw the line Gandalf?

freediver wrote on Oct 4th, 2014 at 8:09pm:
Quote:
No, and no one is saying it should be. You clearly miss the point of what the debate is about.


Wow. We have no come the equivalent of two posts on this issue, hidden among pages and pages of you obfuscating. Getting back to your statement that originally prompted the question:

Quote:
yes people should have the right to make cartoons depicting and mocking any historical figure, sacred or otherwise. But there is a fine line between free speech and vilification - and people should not have the right to use such depictions to vilify and entire group.


Where do you draw the line? Are the cartoons OK, so long as they are not used in a certain way?
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Re: Is Islam against free speech?
Reply #217 - Oct 5th, 2014 at 5:29pm
 
freediver wrote on Oct 5th, 2014 at 4:39pm:
Is this holocaust denial? Is Toben flying under the radar?


Presumably there is some technicality that allows him to keep that web page - as long as he doesn't go out and promote it - like what landed him in prison in 2009.

Put this in the me illegally downloading movies basket if you like, either way there really is no argument for claiming that holocaust denial is freely allowed in Australia - we know you can be gaoled for it, a prominent international denier has been banned from entering the country to talk about it, and our own AG has assured everyone loud and clear that holocaust denial comes under racial vilification - and is therefore unlawful. Whatever technicality you can find that allows holocaust denial to still exist here, the fact is our own government insists that it is unlawful with no howls of outrage from mainstream Australia for this egregious attack on our freedoms. You should be condemning mainstream Australia for this, yet instead here you are spinelessly apologising for it. Strange.

freediver wrote on Oct 5th, 2014 at 4:39pm:
You have accused me of being some kind of free speech extremist


You are. Its a simple statement of fact that you are out of step with mainstream Australia on the freedom issue. You just conceded this in your last post on the sole example you have been able to come up with.

freediver wrote on Oct 5th, 2014 at 4:39pm:
I have, over and over again, in this thread


freediver wrote on Oct 5th, 2014 at 4:39pm:
In this case I believe it does make them guilty of chipping away at our freedoms (or at least, those who stood up for the current version of the legislation). I hope I don't need  to explain why this demonstration is not the same as doing it at every opportunity.


uhuh. So we have an issue on which the mainstream of Australia is, by your own concession, in favour of chipping away at our freedoms - and you continue to insist it is an example of how the mainstream loves our freedom.  Cheesy

freediver wrote on Oct 5th, 2014 at 4:39pm:
Like I said, you will have to explain it to me.


I gave you a link, read it.
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:
Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Re: Is Islam against free speech?
Reply #218 - Oct 5th, 2014 at 7:37pm
 
Baronvonrort wrote on Oct 5th, 2014 at 3:42pm:
The 57 Islamic countries who are members of the OIC have been trying to impose blasphemy laws on the entire world,is that evidence of Islam being against free speech?

Quote:
A leading Islamic organization signalled on wednesday that it will revive long standing attempts to make insults against religions an international criminal offence.
www.reuters.com/article/2012/09/19/us-protests-religions-blasphemy-idUSBRE88I1EG...


It is not the christians/jews/buddhists/hindu/FSM religions that ask for blasphemy laws it is muslims!


...

Then Archbishop of Melbourne, George Pell attempted to bring a Libelous Blasphemy case against the work, "Piss Christ" and it's artist Andres Serrano in 1997, does that equate to evidence of Christianity being against free speech, Baron?   

Where is your outrage at such a thing occurring?  Mmmm?   Roll Eyes
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Soren
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Re: Is Islam against free speech?
Reply #219 - Oct 6th, 2014 at 10:05am
 
Brian Ross wrote on Oct 5th, 2014 at 7:37pm:
Baronvonrort wrote on Oct 5th, 2014 at 3:42pm:
It is not the christians/jews/buddhists/hindu/FSM religions that ask for blasphemy laws it is muslims!


Then Archbishop of Melbourne, George Pell attempted to bring a Libelous Blasphemy case against the work, "Piss Christ" and it's artist Andres Serrano in 1997, does that equate to evidence of Christianity being against free speech, Baron?   



The massive difference I pointed out to you already, Brain, is Muslims want to introduce new STATUTE law to ban criticism of Islam everywhere.

On the other hand, Pell used an EXISTING common law precedent on blasphemy or obscenity under the Summary Offences Act (both tacks were unsuccessful).

Alo very significantly, nobody rioted and Piss Christ remained on display. Nobody rioted and nobody was killed. The judgment means under common law that if an artist created a Piss Mohammed work, it could be exhibited without fear of LEGAL prosecution.

That Muslim would burn down the joint, hunt the 'artist' and Australian Embassies around the world would also be destroyed goes without saying.


If obscure Danish cartoon can do that, what do you think would happen if Piss Mohammed went on display? Would the consequences b very different from the Piss Christ bruhaha?



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Re: Is Islam against free speech?
Reply #220 - Oct 6th, 2014 at 11:44am
 
Soren wrote on Oct 6th, 2014 at 10:05am:
Brian Ross wrote on Oct 5th, 2014 at 7:37pm:
Baronvonrort wrote on Oct 5th, 2014 at 3:42pm:
It is not the christians/jews/buddhists/hindu/FSM religions that ask for blasphemy laws it is muslims!


Then Archbishop of Melbourne, George Pell attempted to bring a Libelous Blasphemy case against the work, "Piss Christ" and it's artist Andres Serrano in 1997, does that equate to evidence of Christianity being against free speech, Baron?   



The massive difference I pointed out to you already, Brain, is Muslims want to introduce new STATUTE law to ban criticism of Islam everywhere.


Some Muslims may.  Do most though?  Where is your evidence?

Its seems you're perfectly OK with Pell doing this.  So much for your belief in Freedom of Speech!

All religions are equal, but some religions are more equal than others!
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"Pens and books are the weapons that defeat terrorism." - Malala Yousefzai, 2013.

"we will never ever solve violence while we grasp for overly simplistic solutions."
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Re: Is Islam against free speech?
Reply #221 - Oct 6th, 2014 at 12:38pm
 
The Organisation of islamic Cooperation, the largest Muslim organisation wants to introduce a woldwide ban on criticism of religion.
Pell was not introducing a new law, get that through your thick skull. He used existing common law and the obscenity laws, both unsuccesfully. And that was the end of it. They accepted the legal judgement.



What would happen if Piss Mohammed or Piss Koran  was exhibited?
Death and destructions.
Why?
Because not all religions are the same.





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Re: Is Islam against free speech?
Reply #222 - Oct 6th, 2014 at 1:00pm
 
Some Muslims might get pissed off.  Most would just get annoyed.  All you'd be doing is playing into the hands of the extremists, proving what they say about people like you is true!

That you steadfastedly refuse to condemn Pell's legal action just shows how biased you are!  That you keep excusing it and focusing exclusively on Muslims just shows how bigoted you are.   With every post you dig a deeper and deeper hole for yourself, Napoleon.  Hows that trick of walking on two legs going?   Grin Grin Cheesy Cheesy Grin Grin Cheesy Cheesy
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"Pens and books are the weapons that defeat terrorism." - Malala Yousefzai, 2013.

"we will never ever solve violence while we grasp for overly simplistic solutions."
Freediver, 2007.
 
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Re: Is Islam against free speech?
Reply #223 - Oct 6th, 2014 at 1:10pm
 
|dev|null wrote on Oct 6th, 2014 at 1:00pm:
Some Muslims might get pissed off.  Most would just get annoyed.  All you'd be doing is playing into the hands of the extremists, proving what they say about people like you is true!

That you steadfastedly refuse to condemn Pell's legal action just shows how biased you are!  That you keep excusing it and focusing exclusively on Muslims just shows how bigoted you are.   With every post you dig a deeper and deeper hole for yourself, Napoleon.  Hows that trick of walking on two legs going?   Grin Grin Cheesy Cheesy Grin Grin Cheesy Cheesy

Why the hell would I condemn anyone seeking legal redress within the legal system of Australia?
Are you out of your mind?


And muslims would go apeshit over Piss Mohammed or Piss Koran. They go apeshit for a lot less.

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Re: Is Islam against free speech?
Reply #224 - Oct 7th, 2014 at 12:21am
 
freediver wrote on Oct 5th, 2014 at 4:39pm:
The Adelaide institute was founded by Toben. Despite a court federal court order against him, he still has this on the website:

http://www.adelaideinstitute.org/HomePage28April2009/holocaust_lie/holocaust_lie.htm

However, what credible historical investigators worldwide now assert—and with excellent reasons—is that the German Reich did not give murderous orders concerning, and in fact did not actually murder, the Jews in its camps.

Is this holocaust denial? Is Toben flying under the radar?


Yes and no.  Toben no longer heads the so-called Adelaide Institute so cannot be held responsible for what is published there.

I am unsure where it is illegal to deny the Holocaust in Australia.  I believe Gandalf is incorrect on that score.  If it was, then there are numerous other websites which would need to be prosecuted.  Toben was sued personally and was ordered by the courts to take down his Holocaust denial pages IIRC.

Quote:
Quote:
Actually, you haven't indicated at all that you want this FD.


You have accused me of being some kind of free speech extremist, many times. Many times, I have responded that rights and freedom inevitably conflict and must therefor be balanced against each other. What matters is that the people involved actually value freedom of speech and other freedoms, rather than using a facade of balance to push an anti-freedom agenda.


Why do you only criticise Muslims for being anti-Free-Speech, FD when there is clear evidence that Christians, for example, are as well (along with the present Government and people such as Gina Rinehart, to name a few)?

Quote:
Quote:
This is a good opportunity for you to clearly articulate what measure you think should be in place to protect against vilification and discrimination - for once.


Freedom of speech is the best defense. Silencing people who say objectionable things inevitably fails, and draws attention to what they have to say. You draw the line when it become instigation of violence or a direct threat to our freedom - the standard legal caveat that freedom of speech does not permit you to yell fire in a crowded theatre (unless of course there is a fire).


You don't think that your continual and bigoted persecution of Muslims for their beliefs is effectively giving encouragement to those who do carry out Islamophobic attacks on Muslims, FD?  In orther words, do you consider it possible that you and your compatriots are in fact inciting others to violence against Muslims with your Islamophobic attitudes?  Roll Eyes

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