Australian Politics Forum - the public service

freediver

Gold Member

Offline

www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 47352
At my desk.

the public service
Jun 3^rd, 2008 at 3:24pm

It looks like Rudd may have backed down on his criticism of the public service:

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1173068900/1009#1009

Has anyone here ever worked in the public service, or better yet, in both public and private? How do they compare? Are public servants as lazy as Rudd made out? Is it inefficient, or is it inevitable that productivity will be low when your ultimate boss may get voted out and replaced with someone who wants you to do the opposite?

Back to top

I identify as Mail because all I do is SendIT!

IP Logged

deepthought

Gold Member

Offline

In Defence Of Liberty

Posts: 2869

Re: the public service
Reply #1 - Jun 3^rd, 2008 at 3:42pm

freediver wrote on Jun 3^rd, 2008 at 3:24pm:

It looks like Rudd may have backed down on his criticism of the public service:

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1173068900/1009#1009

Has anyone here ever worked in the public service, or better yet, in both public and private? How do they compare? Are public servants as lazy as Rudd made out? Is it inefficient, or is it inevitable that productivity will be low when your ultimate boss may get voted out and replaced with someone who wants you to do the opposite?

I've worked in both and in my experience the 'modern' public service is a hell of an improvement on the old public service of a couple of decades ago.

But the public service still contains relics of that era and they can be hard to shift, change or motivate.

The people working in the public service are, on the whole, like their private counterparts in that you can meet all kinds from highly motivated to barely there.

But notwithstanding all the above the public service is very inefficient and the largest problems are caused by the ministers themselves.

Back to top

IP Logged

Sprintcyclist Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 39506 Gender:	Re: the public service Reply #2 - Jun 3^rd, 2008 at 4:04pm I also have worked in both. Like deepy the people in both are similar. The main difference is in private, if it does not go well the boss may lose his home. In public, not so.
Back to top	Modern Classic Right Wing IP Logged

deepthought

Gold Member

Offline

In Defence Of Liberty

Posts: 2869

Re: the public service
Reply #3 - Jun 3^rd, 2008 at 4:11pm

Sprintcyclist wrote on Jun 3^rd, 2008 at 4:04pm:

I also have worked in both.
Like deepy the people in both are similar.
The main difference is in private, if it does not go well the boss may lose his home.
In public, not so.

That is a very strong element of the public service. There is very little risk to anything most of them do. And for the most part there is no such thing as true urgency as nothing depends on the outcome.

Back to top

IP Logged

NorthOfNorth

Gold Member

Offline

OzPolitic

Posts: 17258
Gender: male

Re: the public service
Reply #4 - Jun 3^rd, 2008 at 4:20pm

deepthought wrote on Jun 3^rd, 2008 at 4:11pm:

Sprintcyclist wrote on Jun 3^rd, 2008 at 4:04pm:

I also have worked in both.
Like deepy the people in both are similar.
The main difference is in private, if it does not go well the boss may lose his home.
In public, not so.

That is a very strong element of the public service. There is very little risk to anything most of them do. And for the most part there is no such thing as true urgency as nothing depends on the outcome.

Senior public servants in all states, I believe, are fixed term contract based (which can be terminated at any time by the respective department's minister) and have KPIs to meet. They either perform or they're gone and that includes not impeding the government's agenda. The days when senior public servants could stand defiant against the government of the day are over.

Back to top

Conviction is the art of being certain

IP Logged

deepthought

Gold Member

Offline

In Defence Of Liberty

Posts: 2869

Re: the public service
Reply #5 - Jun 3^rd, 2008 at 4:31pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jun 3^rd, 2008 at 4:20pm:

deepthought wrote on Jun 3^rd, 2008 at 4:11pm:

Sprintcyclist wrote on Jun 3^rd, 2008 at 4:04pm:

I also have worked in both.
Like deepy the people in both are similar.
The main difference is in private, if it does not go well the boss may lose his home.
In public, not so.

That is a very strong element of the public service. There is very little risk to anything most of them do. And for the most part there is no such thing as true urgency as nothing depends on the outcome.

Senior public servants in all states, I believe, are fixed term contract based (which can be terminated at any time by the respective department's minister) and have KPIs to meet. They either perform or they're gone and that includes not impeding the government's agenda. The days when senior public servants could stand defiant against the government of the day are over.

It depends on what you mean by 'senior'. The majority of public servants are still permanent employees of the state and there are very few contract staff. And within the public service contract staff are not recognised as public servants at all.

All public servants have 'KPIs' of a sort but measuring the outcomes can be somewhat problematic due to cross departmental liaison. Permanent staff still have jobs for life unless something untoward takes place.

While more and more temporary staff are used in the public service the departmental and divisional heads are invariably permanent public servants.

Back to top

IP Logged

NorthOfNorth

Gold Member

Offline

OzPolitic

Posts: 17258
Gender: male

Re: the public service
Reply #6 - Jun 3^rd, 2008 at 4:39pm

deepthought wrote on Jun 3^rd, 2008 at 4:31pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jun 3^rd, 2008 at 4:20pm:

deepthought wrote on Jun 3^rd, 2008 at 4:11pm:

Sprintcyclist wrote on Jun 3^rd, 2008 at 4:04pm:

I also have worked in both.
Like deepy the people in both are similar.
The main difference is in private, if it does not go well the boss may lose his home.
In public, not so.

That is a very strong element of the public service. There is very little risk to anything most of them do. And for the most part there is no such thing as true urgency as nothing depends on the outcome.

Senior public servants in all states, I believe, are fixed term contract based (which can be terminated at any time by the respective department's minister) and have KPIs to meet. They either perform or they're gone and that includes not impeding the government's agenda. The days when senior public servants could stand defiant against the government of the day are over.

It depends on what you mean by 'senior'. The majority of public servants are still permanent employees of the state and there are very few contract staff. And within the public service contract staff are not recognised as public servants at all.

All public servants have 'KPIs' of a sort but measuring the outcomes can be somewhat problematic due to cross departmental liaison. Permanent staff still have jobs for life unless something untoward takes place.

While more and more temporary staff are used in the public service the departmental and divisional heads are invariably permanent public servants.

Source some info on the Senior Executive Service. The SES staff are considered public servants (not just contracted staff from private companies) generally on a five year contract which can be terminated at any time by the minister.

departmental and divisional heads are NOT invariably permanent public servants.

Back to top

Conviction is the art of being certain

IP Logged

freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 47352 At my desk.	Re: the public service Reply #7 - Jun 3^rd, 2008 at 4:39pm What is a typical measure used as a KPI?
Back to top	I identify as Mail because all I do is SendIT! IP Logged

NorthOfNorth

Gold Member

Offline

OzPolitic

Posts: 17258
Gender: male

Re: the public service
Reply #8 - Jun 3^rd, 2008 at 4:42pm

freediver wrote on Jun 3^rd, 2008 at 4:39pm:

What is a typical measure used as a KPI?

The core SES selection criteria are the five key elements identified in the Senior Executive Leadership Capability Framework:

* Shapes Strategic Thinking
* Achieves Results
* Exemplifies Personal Drive and Integrity
* Cultivates Productive Working Relationships
* Communicates with Influence

The Minister of a department will most likely assign a list of KPIs to the departmental head that he must achieve within a given timeframe.

Back to top

Conviction is the art of being certain

IP Logged

freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 47352 At my desk.	Re: the public service Reply #9 - Jun 3^rd, 2008 at 4:46pm So, what is a typical KPI?
Back to top	I identify as Mail because all I do is SendIT! IP Logged

NorthOfNorth

Gold Member

Offline

OzPolitic

Posts: 17258
Gender: male

Re: the public service
Reply #10 - Jun 3^rd, 2008 at 4:56pm

freediver wrote on Jun 3^rd, 2008 at 4:46pm:

So, what is a typical KPI?

That depends on the government's legislative agenda. If part of it is to build infrastructure then the KPIs for the Chief Executive or the Director General of the state or federal government's Infrastructure department will reflect the government's vision for its term in office. A prospective DG will need to have a proven track record in successfully achieving outcomes in complex infrastructure development projects. The KPIs will reflect that.

Back to top

Conviction is the art of being certain

IP Logged

freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 47352 At my desk.	Re: the public service Reply #11 - Jun 3^rd, 2008 at 5:06pm Are you a politician?
Back to top	I identify as Mail because all I do is SendIT! IP Logged

NorthOfNorth Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 17258 Gender:	Re: the public service Reply #12 - Jun 3^rd, 2008 at 5:09pm freediver wrote on Jun 3^rd, 2008 at 5:06pm: Are you a politician? Now that would be telling!!
Back to top	Conviction is the art of being certain IP Logged

deepthought

Gold Member

Offline

In Defence Of Liberty

Posts: 2869

Re: the public service
Reply #13 - Jun 3^rd, 2008 at 5:46pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jun 3^rd, 2008 at 4:39pm:

Source some info on the Senior Executive Service. The SES staff are considered public servants (not just contracted staff from private companies) generally on a five year contract which can be terminated at any time by the minister.

departmental and divisional heads are NOT invariably permanent public servants.

They are dude. And it's quite easy to prove you wrong thanks to the annual report State Of The Service which gives yearly data on the Australian Public Service. According to that report as at the end of the last financial year -

Quote:

At June 2007, there were 2,509 ongoing SES employees in the APS, up from 2,257 last year. The proportional increase in the size of the SES (11.2%) was larger than the growth in the APS overall (6.5%).

The composition of the SES has generally remained stable over the last 15 years. At June 2007, SES Band 1 employees comprised just under three quarters of the SES at 74.9%, with SES Band 2 at 20.4% and SES Band 3 at 4.8%.[/b]

How do I know they are permanent? They are classified as 'ongoing' which is a "person employed for an unspecified, indefinite period".

I reiterate the majority of the public service is still populated by permanent employees.

Back to top

IP Logged

NorthOfNorth

Gold Member

Offline

OzPolitic

Posts: 17258
Gender: male

Re: the public service
Reply #14 - Jun 3^rd, 2008 at 5:57pm

deepthought wrote on Jun 3^rd, 2008 at 5:46pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jun 3^rd, 2008 at 4:39pm:

Source some info on the Senior Executive Service. The SES staff are considered public servants (not just contracted staff from private companies) generally on a five year contract which can be terminated at any time by the minister.

departmental and divisional heads are NOT invariably permanent public servants.

They are dude. And it's quite easy to prove you wrong thanks to the annual report State Of The Service which gives yearly data on the Australian Public Service. According to that report as at the end of the last financial year -

Quote:

At June 2007, there were 2,509 ongoing SES employees in the APS, up from 2,257 last year. The proportional increase in the size of the SES (11.2%) was larger than the growth in the APS overall (6.5%).

The composition of the SES has generally remained stable over the last 15 years. At June 2007, SES Band 1 employees comprised just under three quarters of the SES at 74.9%, with SES Band 2 at 20.4% and SES Band 3 at 4.8%.[/b]

How do I know they are permanent? They are classified as 'ongoing' which is a "person employed for an unspecified, indefinite period".

I reiterate the majority of the public service is still populated by permanent employees.

Your original statement was that 'departmental and divisional heads are invariably permanent public servants' and this is not correct. Ongoing or fixed term SES public servants are not permanent public servants, their employment can be terminated by the government of the day. Non-SES public servants (and those who are not on Public Service fixed term contracts - which differs from SES contracts) are permanent public servants and no permanent public servant in any state, so I believe, is employed at senior level. The senior level includes directors, executive directors, divisional and departmental heads. All these positions are occupied by non-permanent public servants. If the Government of the day can terminate your employment at any time, you are not a permanent public servant.

Back to top

Conviction is the art of being certain

IP Logged