True America has stuck its nose in where it wasnt wanted but its not Robinson Crusoe either. There are not too many countries that at one time or another have been where they shouldnt be. I dont think the yanks are responsible for a lot of the things they are blamed for, I think the World Bank courses more trouble than them.

pope urban 2 wrote on Jun 13^th, 2008 at 10:28pm:


Which Bali bombers are you talking about - the 2003 or the 2005 bombing? And what is your point? 2003 bombing - 3 were sentenced to death, 1 for life and 17 for 2 - 16 years. The 2005 bombing, 1 suspect was killed during a raid, another sentence to death, 1 is yet to be apprehended, and 3 senetence to 25 years. Less than Corby? The 17 others were mostly not directly involved with the bombing itself. They supplied material support such as buying the fertiliser, hiring the truck, hiding the suspects when they were on the run etc. Their sentence reflected their crimes. You cannot cry injustice when even our laws and legal system will apply the same or similar jail terms. You also have to appreciate that Indonesia did not have an anti-terroism law at the time. When they drew it up they applied it retrospectively (something which the Australian legal system would NEVER do, and yet we sat by quietly when Indonesia did). Corby is a convicted drug smuggler. She is serving her time - 20 years is about right even by Australian standards.

Which part of the Middle East did you go (besides Dubai)? Even a peaceful country can be unsafe.

Yes, the world bank has failed badly those it was supposed to help.

Those that are conversant with economics can readily predict that was to occur.
And that the increased debts would be unrepayable anyway.

Really, a failure all round for decades.

jfk - without checking your figures I accept them as being reasonably ok.

So, why do a crowd of representatives of democratic capitalist countries want to help 3rd world ones ?

See, it was never going to work.
That was always the ecomonics/capitalists point of view.

It was not capitalism. You can't make any money from poor people, they don't have it !!!
They can't repay an deby, so are happy to borrow.
It was a populist thoery, to make the voters feel good.
Both sides lost.

pope urban 2 wrote on Jun 16^th, 2008 at 8:39pm:



There is a lot more to it than that. If you go back to the days before slavery and colonialisation, Africa in general was in a much better state.  Take Ghana for instance. They had a civilisation (Ashanti) that went back to medieval times. Mali was a cultural and trading centre and the site of the biggest university in Subsaharan Africa (Timbuktou).

The colonials basically raped African countries, ripped their hearts out  and left them for dead, making a half-hearted attempt to instal weak governments before they left. Some experimented with Marxism and have never fully recovered - for example Guinea.

Gabon is one of the few examples of a relatively stable African country.

US farm subsidies is one factor, but Africa has largely been excluded from the global market for one reason or another.

The real kiss of death for Africa has been well-meaning Europeans who think they are helping, but haven't really taken the opportunity of asking the locals what help they really need.

Here - have a  few surplus pesticides that are banned at home, as a donation from the people of the United States of America. Don't thank us - we know you're grateful. What are you complaining about? - have a few thousand vaccines on us - and don't forget to buy a new syringe for each person, or you'll have an epidemic on your hands!

pope urban 2 wrote on Jun 18^th, 2008 at 6:50pm:


While the West may not have spawned these despots directly, they certainly had a large hand in the descimation of the African nation. At the very least they created the environment for which enabled the popular rise of these dictators. Don't forget that Mugabe rose to power on the back of anti-Western sentiment - he confiscate all land owned by white minorities with the support of the african majority.

Also, there's the militarisation of African nations through the sale of arms. Although it is a Hollywood movie and largely fictionalised, the Lord of War (Nicholas Cage) is a story based on the real life of an arms dealer secretly in the employ of the US govt. The background setting of the movie is real.

US trained military - Angola, Benin, Botswana, Cameroon, Cape Verde, Central African Republic, Chad, Comoros, Congo Core d'Ivoirie, Djibouti, Eritrea, Ethiopia, Ghana, Guinea, Guinea-Bissau, Ivory Coast, Kenya, Lesotho, Madgascar, Malawi, Mali, Maurutania, Mozambique, Namibia, Niger, Rwanda, Sao Tome & Principe, Senegal, Seychelles, Sierra Leone, South africa,, Swaziland, Tanzania, Togo, Tunisia, Uganda, Zambia and Zimbabwe. Half of the listed are currently engage in conflict with each other and 4 are commiting genocide within their own borders.

(Source: http://www.worldpolicy.org/projects/arms/reports/congo.htm#usrole)

pope urban 2 wrote on Jun 18^th, 2008 at 6:50pm:


There is a lot of hypocrisy in Foreign policy. It's not ok for Robert Mugabe to rig elections and get rid of his political opponents, but it's ok for Saudi Arabia to have a despotic regime with no elections.

What's the difference? Oil? Not rocking the boat?

Don't for one moment think I support Mugabe, but he's typical of many African rulers.