Australian Politics Forum - Violence and turning the other cheek

Welcome, Guest. Please Login or Register

Forum rules, Recent posts (with text), RSS, Search options, Browse all uploaded images
Home, Articles, Green Tax Shift, Evolution,

Australian Politics Forum › Member Run Boards › Islam › Violence and turning the other cheek

(Moderator: polite_gandalf)

‹ Previous Topic | Next Topic ›

Pages: 1

Violence and turning the other cheek (Read 1848 times)

freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 51062 At my desk.	Violence and turning the other cheek Sep 25^th, 2008 at 10:15am To what extent does Islam reject concepts like turning the other cheek and 'love thy enemy'? Does this contribute to violence in the middle east? Would Muslims kill each other less often if they were more forgiving?
Back to top	People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words. IP Logged

Lestat

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 1403

Re: Violence and turning the other cheek
Reply #1 - Sep 25^th, 2008 at 10:36am

freediver wrote on Sep 25^th, 2008 at 10:15am:

To what extent does Islam reject concepts like turning the other cheek and 'love thy enemy'? Does this contribute to violence in the middle east? Would Muslims kill each other less often if they were more forgiving?

Lets be honest, the whole 'love they enemy' myth that Christians espouse is just that....a myth. How much 'love' have the Americans shown for the hundreds and thousands of dead Afghans and Iraqi's over the year.

And I bet that the hundreds of thousands of Iraqi children didn't feel much 'love' during the US instigated UN sanctions against Iraq during the 90's.

How much love did Christian Europe show for it's Jewish enemy through the medieval ages. And they showed so much love for muslim Al-Andalus that there are no longer any muslims in Spain. Yes...that Christian love wiped them all out.

And I don't think the Conquisitors showed much love for the Aztecs, Mayan's and Omnecs in South America.

Come to think of it...their are not really any countries or nations in the world that truly 'love thy enemy'....is there?

Even in the Bible, Jesus (Mathew 10:34) says "I come not to bring peace, but to bring a sword", just another of the many verses that Christians just completely ignore because they have no logical explanation.

Yes...'turning the other cheek' is an admirable trait, but it is really only realistic and plausible when done from a position of power. To expect the persecuted, oppressed and suffering to 'turn the other cheek' is both ludicrous and unrealistic.

The major contributing factor to the violence in the middle east is two fold...one, external forces and involvement by colonial powers who's continual meddling and divisive tactics has created divisions, and secondly, the lack of Islam and faith of our leaders, who continuosly put there own well being above that of the people.

And you say that 'muslims kill each other' like this is a problem exclusive to muslims.

I think you'll find that Christians kill each other in just as many numbers if not more. THe Balkans/Northern Ireland/Rwanda/South America...in fact just about in every continent in the world, I can give you examples of Christians killing each other in the hundreds of thousands...if not millions.

IP Logged

freediver

Gold Member

Offline

www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 51062
At my desk.

Re: Violence and turning the other cheek
Reply #2 - Sep 25^th, 2008 at 11:03am

Lets be honest, the whole 'love they enemy' myth that Christians espouse is just that....a myth. How much 'love' have the Americans shown for the hundreds and thousands of dead Afghans and Iraqi's over the year.

Just because people don't always live up to the moral values they espouse does not mean they aren't genuine moral values. It is the fact that they can't always live up to them that makes them moral values.

Come to think of it...their are not really any countries or nations in the world that truly 'love thy enemy'....is there?

True. Nations are incapable of love. They are institutions. It's people that love.

Even in the Bible, Jesus (Mathew 10:34) says "I come not to bring peace, but to bring a sword", just another of the many verses that Christians just completely ignore because they have no logical explanation.

I think that has been dealt with a number of times on the spirituality board. It is not a promotion of violence.

Yes...'turning the other cheek' is an admirable trait, but it is really only realistic and plausible when done from a position of power.

Everyone has power, especially over themselves.

To expect the persecuted, oppressed and suffering to 'turn the other cheek' is both ludicrous and unrealistic.

Of course it's unrealistic to expect people to live up to a moral code, especially one like that. But that doesn't mean it cannot be done. Ghandi did it. There are no doubt times when it is unrealistic to expect people not to murder, rape and steal, but there are always people prepared to rise above their peers.

The major contributing factor to the violence in the middle east is two fold...one, external forces and involvement by colonial powers who's continual meddling and divisive tactics has created divisions, and secondly, the lack of Islam and faith of our leaders, who continuosly put there own well being above that of the people.

So the (lack of) personal responsibility of those who actually commit the attrocities is an insignificant part? Once you come across hard times, you can't expect people to do anything else?

And you say that 'muslims kill each other' like this is a problem exclusive to muslims.

Would you mind explaining how you manage to interpret the manner in which I say things?

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

IP Logged

locutius

Gold Member

Offline

You can't fight in here!
It's the War Room

Posts: 1817
Queensland
Gender: male

Re: Violence and turning the other cheek
Reply #3 - Sep 25^th, 2008 at 12:49pm

Interesting questions FD. I did not realize that they were deliberately pro-christian and anti-islam. The qualities you mentioned are found in other religions of course such as buddhism, I don't, like you, know how they are percieved Islamically.

I hope they might get answered other than with an incomplete history lesson. If we were to include all the countries and religions and ideological zealots that have persecuted each other and others including muslims we will be here for years. Christianity has a lot to answer for, like any of the organised religions.

I dream of a better tomorrow, where chickens can cross the road and not be questioned about their motives.

IP Logged

Lestat

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 1403

Re: Violence and turning the other cheek
Reply #4 - Sep 25^th, 2008 at 1:21pm

locutius wrote on Sep 25^th, 2008 at 12:49pm:

Locuituis...quite clearly it is a loaded question.

"To what extent does Islam reject concepts like turning the other cheek and 'love thy enemy'? "...this assumes that Islami rejects these concepts...and if he has made this assumption, the question is 'why'?

Has FD read the Quran to make such a statement, clearly not because if he had he would know that Allah commands muslims to show mercy, to forgive and not to transgress. After all, mercy and forgiveness are clearly the overriding characterstics involved when 'turning the other cheek'.

By asking the question the way he did, with quotes directly from the Bible, he turned this into a Christian/muslim thing. THe underwriting theme of his post is rather clear.....Christians = Good/Peaceful, Musilims = bad/violent.

But to answer yours and his question....no Islam does not reject these priniciples. Allah commands muslim to show mercy, and to forgive, numerous times in the Quran, and there are many examples where the prophet repaid cruelty with kindness.

The message of Jesus is the same as that of Muhummed (peace be upon them both), with the latter being the completed message.

IP Logged

Lestat

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 1403

Re: Violence and turning the other cheek
Reply #5 - Sep 25^th, 2008 at 1:30pm

freediver wrote on Sep 25^th, 2008 at 11:03am:

Just because people don't always live up to the moral values they espouse does not mean they aren't genuine moral values. It is the fact that they can't always live up to them that makes them moral values.

Agreed...if only you were so forgiving of muslims and they're morals. So fd...does this logic also apply to muslims?

freediver wrote on Sep 25^th, 2008 at 11:03am:

True. Nations are incapable of love. They are institutions. It's people that love.

Are you implying that because in your view 'Islam' rejects these concepts, therefore muslims are incapable of love.

freediver wrote on Sep 25^th, 2008 at 11:03am:

I think that has been dealt with a number of times on the spirituality board. It is not a promotion of violence.

And when Jesus demanded his apostles to gather swords and defend themselves...was this too not a promotion of violence?

Tell us then FD..if not violence then what is it.

freediver wrote on Sep 25^th, 2008 at 11:03am:

Everyone has power, especially over themselves.

Really...this is just ludicrous mumbo jumbo that doesn't really address my point.

freediver wrote on Sep 25^th, 2008 at 11:03am:

Of course it's unrealistic to expect people to live up to a moral code, especially one like that. But that doesn't mean it cannot be done. Ghandi did it. There are no doubt times when it is unrealistic to expect people not to murder, rape and steal, but there are always people prepared to rise above their peers.

Once again..my point has gone right over your head. I never said it is unrealistic for people to live up to a moral code. Go and read my post again...and try again.

freediver wrote on Sep 25^th, 2008 at 11:03am:

So the (lack of) personal responsibility of those who actually commit the attrocities is an insignificant part? Once you come across hard times, you can't expect people to do anything else?

If you treat people like animals for long enough...they start acting like animals. Haven't you ever heard the term...violence breeds violence.

freediver wrote on Sep 25^th, 2008 at 11:03am:

Would you mind explaining how you manage to interpret the manner in which I say things?

See post above...you've firstly loaded your question..implying that Islam rejects these concepts, and then you clearly implied that Christians are 'peaceful' due to these concepts (which are found in the Bible)...yet muslims are 'violent' since they reject (and incorrect assumption on your part) these concepts.

IP Logged

freediver

Gold Member

Offline

www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 51062
At my desk.

Re: Violence and turning the other cheek
Reply #6 - Sep 25^th, 2008 at 2:37pm

"To what extent does Islam reject concepts like turning the other cheek and 'love thy enemy'? "...this assumes that Islami rejects these concepts...and if he has made this assumption, the question is 'why'?

No it doesn't assume anything. It asks whether it does, without creating a false dichotomy. Furthermore, Abu has implied that it does in other threads.

Has FD read the Quran to make such a statement

It's a question, not a statement.

By asking the question the way he did, with quotes directly from the Bible, he turned this into a Christian/muslim thing.

Turning the other cheek is also in common usage. I think that the bible is usually translated as 'love thy neighbour'. They are certainly not direct quotes from the bible.

Are you implying that because in your view 'Islam' rejects these concepts, therefore muslims are incapable of love.

No.

And when Jesus demanded his apostles to gather swords and defend themselves...was this too not a promotion of violence?

Would you mind quoting the bit you are referring to?

Really...this is just ludicrous mumbo jumbo that doesn't really address my point.

It does address your point. You implied that people have no power or responsibility for their own actions once they are no longer governed by Islam. Everyone has power over themselves and over those around them. You cannot expect compassion to be an exclusively top down phenomenon. In practice it almost always starts from the bottom up. You ahve to take responsibility for your own actions and stop attempting to justify or excuse evil on account of the government not being how you would prefer it.

Once again..my point has gone right over your head. I never said it is unrealistic for people to live up to a moral code. Go and read my post again...and try again.

So then Islam does reject the concept to some extent? Either you are saying it is a moral code they do not live up to, or they don't do it because their moral code does not expect them to.

If you treat people like animals for long enough...they start acting like animals. Haven't you ever heard the term...violence breeds violence.

Yes, that's the whole point of this thread. You seem to be implying this is a justification for violence, like only the first person is responsilbe and everyone who perpetuates the cycle of violence bears no responsibility.

See post above...you've firstly loaded your question..implying that Islam rejects these concepts

Didn't you say it was an assumption?

and then you clearly implied that Christians are 'peaceful' due to these concepts (which are found in the Bible)

See this is why I asked you to explain your magical powers to interpret the 'way' I say things, as you keep saying I imply one thing, even though I say the opposite.

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

IP Logged

Pages: 1

‹ Previous Topic | Next Topic ›

« Forum

‹ Board

Top of this page