Australian Politics Forum - Nelson's petrol tax cuts are a bad idea

freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 47631 At my desk.	Re: Nelson's petrol tax cuts are a bad idea Reply #60 - May 19^th, 2008 at 9:46pm That's no excuse to ignore the economics. There is no moral difference between a petrol tax cut or any other tax cuts, except perhaps some of the externalities, but that hardly supports your argument.
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Aussie

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Re: Nelson's petrol tax cuts are a bad idea
Reply #61 - May 19^th, 2008 at 9:47pm

deepthought wrote on May 19^th, 2008 at 9:44pm:

Aussie wrote on May 19^th, 2008 at 9:39pm:

Well, DT.....who is right?

The Doctor or Turnbull?

I theenk you reckon Turbull is!!

So, ipso facto, what say ye of the leadership?

I reckon tax cuts are great. The dude who advocated it is right in my view.

So, Turncoat is buggered?

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deepthought

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Re: Nelson's petrol tax cuts are a bad idea
Reply #62 - May 19^th, 2008 at 9:49pm

freediver wrote on May 19^th, 2008 at 9:39pm:

You must have missed these ones Deepy.

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1210996459/52#52

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1210996459/14#14

I'm not going to try to quote the TV, but it was pretty much along the same lines as my opening post.

The first one doesn't even comment on the economics of the tax cut - it is about the brawl between the two and the second is a bunch of blog comments.

Post what you claimed. Unless you made up your claim of course in which case you won't be able to post all those 'Every commentator I have seen, on TV and in print, has criticised his idea, for largely the same reasons".

Lets see the criticisms and their reasons hey? I want to analyse their comments.

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deepthought

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Re: Nelson's petrol tax cuts are a bad idea
Reply #63 - May 19^th, 2008 at 9:50pm

freediver wrote on May 19^th, 2008 at 9:46pm:

That's no excuse to ignore the economics. There is no moral difference between a petrol tax cut or any other tax cuts, except perhaps some of the externalities, but that hardly supports your argument.

I think I mentioned that I live in a society. But if you reckon that economies are more important than the people dwelling in them tell me why.

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deepthought

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Re: Nelson's petrol tax cuts are a bad idea
Reply #64 - May 19^th, 2008 at 9:51pm

Aussie wrote on May 19^th, 2008 at 9:47pm:

deepthought wrote on May 19^th, 2008 at 9:44pm:

Aussie wrote on May 19^th, 2008 at 9:39pm:

Well, DT.....who is right?

The Doctor or Turnbull?

I theenk you reckon Turbull is!!

So, ipso facto, what say ye of the leadership?

I reckon tax cuts are great. The dude who advocated it is right in my view.

So, Turncoat is buggered?

I have no idea. I don't make those decisions. I disagree with him though.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 47631 At my desk.	Re: Nelson's petrol tax cuts are a bad idea Reply #65 - May 19^th, 2008 at 9:55pm deepthought wrote on May 19^th, 2008 at 9:45pm: I don't live in an economy. I live in a society. I can't wait till Nelson says something daft like that to try to justify his position. Deepy the Russians live in a society but not an economy. We have a decent economy and I will vote to keep it that way.
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deepthought

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Re: Nelson's petrol tax cuts are a bad idea
Reply #66 - May 19^th, 2008 at 10:00pm

freediver wrote on May 19^th, 2008 at 9:55pm:

deepthought wrote on May 19^th, 2008 at 9:45pm:

I don't live in an economy. I live in a society.

I can't wait till Nelson says something daft like that to try to justify his position. Deepy the Russians live in a society but not an economy. We have a decent economy and I will vote to keep it that way.

Really? How peculiar you should say that.

http://www.ozpolitic.com/articles/environment-society-economy.html

It seems at odds with how you used to think.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 47631 At my desk.	Re: Nelson's petrol tax cuts are a bad idea Reply #67 - May 19^th, 2008 at 10:06pm Economics has it's place. That article does not say you should ignore the economics altogether, which is what you and Nelson are doing.
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deepthought

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Re: Nelson's petrol tax cuts are a bad idea
Reply #68 - May 19^th, 2008 at 10:31pm

freediver wrote on May 19^th, 2008 at 10:06pm:

Economics has it's place. That article does not say you should ignore the economics altogether, which is what you and Nelson are doing.

Nope. Why not read what I actually said, then also read the budget transcript and see what Brendan said.

You are wrong. And you are also a hypocrite. You describe the 'economy comes first' model as the 'Mickey Mouse' model. Now it has become more important than the societal impact of taxation to you.

Once again you contradict yourself. Just what do you believe in? It certainly isn't consistent.

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freediver

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Re: Nelson's petrol tax cuts are a bad idea
Reply #69 - May 20^th, 2008 at 11:05am

I am not saying we should put the economiy first. Nelson's idea is bad from both an economic and environmental perspective. That's why it is so broadly condemned as cheap populism. There is no independent social reason supporting his proposal. It doesn't make sense, whatever way you look at it. It is a largely economic issue. Putting society first does not mean destroying the economy for the sake of it. Your argument might make sense if you could point to some conflicting needs, but you can't. It's not like cheap fuel is some kind of fundamental human right.

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deepthought

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Re: Nelson's petrol tax cuts are a bad idea
Reply #70 - May 20^th, 2008 at 5:14pm

freediver wrote on May 20^th, 2008 at 11:05am:

I am not saying we should put the economiy first. Nelson's idea is bad from both an economic and environmental perspective. That's why it is so broadly condemned as cheap populism. There is no independent social reason supporting his proposal. It doesn't make sense, whatever way you look at it. It is a largely economic issue. Putting society first does not mean destroying the economy for the sake of it. Your argument might make sense if you could point to some conflicting needs, but you can't. It's not like cheap fuel is some kind of fundamental human right.

You do say you prefer an economy before a society. You said this.

Quote:

the Russians live in a society but not an economy. We have a decent economy and I will vote to keep it that way.

It's those damned Russkies who have a society but you choose an economy, you will vote to keep our economy over their society.

And no one said that cheap fuel was a fundamental right or even any kind of right. What I said was that while the government has monster surpluses they can afford to take less from the people. And in taking less they can lower the cost of one of the most expensive single items in a weekly budget - fuel for the Tarago. It's a two for one deal and there are no losers with this piece of brilliance.

Now Kevvy doesn't really want to lower the cost of the fuel as he promised - he just wants to watch it go up. And to make life just that little bit tougher he will even increase the purchase price of your Tarago.

That's Liebor and your economy at work.

I voted for a society. I voted Liberal.

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freediver

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Re: Nelson's petrol tax cuts are a bad idea
Reply #71 - May 20^th, 2008 at 5:33pm

Deepthought, when I made that comment about the Russians, I was making fun of your original claim about living in a society but not an ecoomy. Obviously I do not believe in a binary choice between a society and an economy and I think the distinction you made is an empty headed left wing mantra.

You obviously missed the point of the article completely. At the risk of oversimplifying it for you, it is irrational to erode your environmental capital for social captial. It is irrational to erode your environmental or social capital for economic cpaital. As no such erosion is involved in this issue, your criticisms miss the mark.

What I said was that while the government has monster surpluses they can afford to take less from the people.

Thus demonstarting a complete lack of awareness about how inflation is controlled.

And in taking less they can lower the cost of one of the most expensive single items in a weekly budget

From a narrow personal perspective, there is no difference between a decrease of $10 in my fuel bill, a decrease of the same amount in some other expense, or an increase in income of $10. From an economic perspective there is a big difference. It is that important difference that is behind the broad consensus that Nelson is undermining the Liberal's economic credibility.

At least Nelson seems to understand that it is a bad economic decision, but is trying to convince his party that cheap populism is more important.

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deepthought

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Re: Nelson's petrol tax cuts are a bad idea
Reply #72 - May 20^th, 2008 at 5:37pm

freediver wrote on May 20^th, 2008 at 5:33pm:

Deepthought, when I made that comment about the Russians, I was making fun of your original claim about living in a society but not an ecoomy. Obviously I do not believe in a binary choice between a society and an economy and I think the distinction you made is an empty headed left wing mantra.

You obviously missed the point of the article completely. At the risk of oversimplifying it for you, it is irrational to erode your environmental capital for social captial. It is irrational to erode your environmental or social capital for economic cpaital. As no such erosion is involved in this issue, your criticisms miss the mark.

What I said was that while the government has monster surpluses they can afford to take less from the people.

Thus demonstarting a complete lack of awareness about how inflation is controlled.

And in taking less they can lower the cost of one of the most expensive single items in a weekly budget

From a narrow personal perspective, there is no difference between a decrease of $10 in my fuel bill, a decrease of the same amount in some other expense, or an increase in income of $10. From an economic perspective there is a big difference. It is that important difference that is behind the broad consensus that Nelson is undermining the Liberal's economic credibility.

At least Nelson seems to understand that it is a bad economic decision, but is trying to convince his party that cheap populism is more important.

Before you back pedal right out the door would you state just what effect 5 cents either way will have on fuel consumption in your opinion.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 47631 At my desk.	Re: Nelson's petrol tax cuts are a bad idea Reply #73 - May 20^th, 2008 at 5:39pm I am not back pedalling at all. I am trying to explain how you misunderstood the article. If the fuel price goes up, consumption will go down, and vice versa.
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deepthought Gold Member Offline In Defence Of Liberty Posts: 2869	Re: Nelson's petrol tax cuts are a bad idea Reply #74 - May 20^th, 2008 at 5:46pm freediver wrote on May 20^th, 2008 at 5:39pm: I am not back pedalling at all. I am trying to explain how you misunderstood the article. If the fuel price goes up, consumption will go down, and vice versa. So the rise of 5 cents will cause consumption to fall and vise versa?
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